1. #1
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    What's the design point of Incanter's Flow in terms of gameplay?

    I tried to track it with a graphical indicator, but it seems it's of little usefulness since it alters so rapidly it doesn't seem that great for "lining up" ice lances or whatnot. Is there anything that can make it more useful than a flat increase.

    It's as if the designer first thought "that might be cool to line up abilities when it's max" but the way it changes rapidly, it doesn't seem useable that way.

  2. #2
    Eh on average its 12% damage increase vs 15% for rune.

    You can do things of course to min/max it a bit. Like for frost if you use comet storm during the 4 -> 5 IF stack, every comet storm (if used instantly off cd) will be during that cycle again (4 -> 5)

    *shrugs*

  3. #3
    rune of power alternative for movement fights or for lazy people on every fight.

  4. #4
    The Lightbringer LocNess's Avatar
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    Don't worry about trying to line things up. It is possible to aim for that, and Supernova at 5 stacks instead of 3 or 4, but the increase over the fight is extremely minimal to be worth it. Things will average out to around 12% increase.
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    Immortal Raugnaut's Avatar
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    For min/maxing, it allows you to use your highest DPET spells (Novas, Falling Stars) during the 20% boost, and your lower DPET spells during the lower damage periods (Frostbolt).

    But overall, it provides a slightly weaker version of Rune that allows for movement. Remember that blizzard has said that if you have a passive option and 2 active options in a talent tier, the passive option will be slightly weaker (Which is why it was nerfed to 20% down from 25%, because 25% was slightly more powerful then Rune, the more powerful of the "active" options in that tier)
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  6. #6
    The Lightbringer Ahovv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    For min/maxing, it allows you to use your highest DPET spells (Novas, Falling Stars) during the 20% boost, and your lower DPET spells during the lower damage periods (Frostbolt).

    But overall, it provides a slightly weaker version of Rune that allows for movement. Remember that blizzard has said that if you have a passive option and 2 active options in a talent tier, the passive option will be slightly weaker (Which is why it was nerfed to 20% down from 25%, because 25% was slightly more powerful then Rune, the more powerful of the "active" options in that tier)
    Blizzard may have said this at some point, but it's not really true when you look at a lot of options. Unstable Magic is completely passive and yet is generally more desirable for our specs (as in, more dps).

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahovv View Post
    Blizzard may have said this at some point, but it's not really true when you look at a lot of options. Unstable Magic is completely passive and yet is generally more desirable for our specs (as in, more dps).
    Active vs Passive arguments really don't make much sense, adding a button you press every x seconds does not complicate gameplay at all so why should you get more damage out of it.

  8. #8
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    You can't "just" min/max those abilities by waiting for the 5 stacks. If you wait you lose dps. Or at least, if you wait you lose part of the potency of the cooldown on the base damage of it because simply you waste seconds of it being unused.

    So it would need theorycrafting to make sure waiting is more dps than not waiting.

    I get a sense though that since it changes too rapidly it's just not doable like that.

  9. #9
    The Lightbringer Ahovv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobindax View Post
    You can't "just" min/max those abilities by waiting for the 5 stacks. If you wait you lose dps. Or at least, if you wait you lose part of the potency of the cooldown on the base damage of it because simply you waste seconds of it being unused.

    So it would need theorycrafting to make sure waiting is more dps than not waiting.

    I get a sense though that since it changes too rapidly it's just not doable like that.
    This isn't true at all when it comes to charge-based abilities. If you were sitting at 1 Supernova charge and decide to wait until your IF stacks are high, you're not losing any dps at all because you haven't lost any potential Supernovas.

    However, given the *current* optimal talent choices, there is nothing to optimize with IF.

  10. #10
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    In any case after I posted the last reply I realized it's extremely easy to theorycraft. Just put a condition on Simcraft. It will soon show if it's an increase in dps.

    I suspect it's going to be a decrease. Not by too much maybe.



    Also it would be extremely hard to actually play like that. I expect only a few players in the top 10 guilds would really play it "like Simcraft". I'm talking about REALLY doing the waiting exactly on time when all hell breaks loose in real actual fights on progression.

    It's not only about one spell by the way. It's something that would need to be checked on brain freeze and fingers of frost too.
    Last edited by mmocdc260e8e2a; 2015-08-08 at 10:57 AM.

  11. #11
    It could do with being tweaked a little so it is more profitable to line it up with your short cooldown abilities, but doing that while keeping it in line with the other options would be difficult.

  12. #12
    Fluffy Kitten Wilderness's Avatar
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    Its been simmed before, and optimizing charge-based abilities with IF came out to less than a 0.5% dps increase. And if you are waiting for that 5th stack and then have to deal with a mechanic right at the same time then you could actually lose dps. There's no reason to optimize SN/IN/BW usage with IF at all, even on fights that they are the best talent choice.

  13. #13
    In PVE it's really hard to see gains from gaming it, because we're actively DPSing 100% of the time. The effects of Incanter's Flow and taking advantage of 20% peaks is much more visible in PVP, where players spend a lot of time not doing damage and waiting on procs.

  14. #14
    Herald of the Titans Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahovv View Post
    Unstable Magic is completely passive and yet is generally more desirable for our specs (as in, more dps).
    Ah but is UM more desirable if you don't have Tier and the good trinkets??

    Things get muddy when you start factoring in tier bonuses and tinkets because they skew things. Technically, for Arcane, mastery is the best stat until you get Tier in which case haste (to a degree) starts pacing ahead because of pets.
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  15. #15
    The Lightbringer Ahovv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Ah but is UM more desirable if you don't have Tier and the good trinkets??

    Things get muddy when you start factoring in tier bonuses and tinkets because they skew things. Technically, for Arcane, mastery is the best stat until you get Tier in which case haste (to a degree) starts pacing ahead because of pets.
    No; I found the cutoff to be 720 class trinket before I wanted to run UM. And even then, Supernova is still nice for certain fights where you want a bit more burst aoe (although still generally unnecessary since other classes can aoe just fine)

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Sheridanjohn View Post
    Active vs Passive arguments really don't make much sense, adding a button you press every x seconds does not complicate gameplay at all so why should you get more damage out of it.
    Of course it does. Knowing the right order to hit four buttons in is more complicated than knowing the right order to hit three buttons in.

    It's not significantly more complicated, but nobody claimed it was. I am firmly in the camp that believes if you are doing something extra or different that it should reward a bit more DPS when done properly than "derp my abilities hit harder." The more complicated from the baseline, the more the reward for proper execution should be.
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