Petless unholy option?

[Deleted]

The ghoul is essential for PvP. Some damage, some decent damage when transformed, a ranged interrupt+root, a stun, being able to do all this while cc'd and (most importantly!) keeping rogues in combat.
That being said, yeah why not? Timmy might be easily replaced dps-wise but if they would want to compensate for utility I'd be really curious!

[Kithelle]

You're really going to cite Shadow Infusion and Enhanced Dark Transformation? Really? Grasp at straws more please. A stacking "buff" that has the sole purpose of letting you activate Dark Transformation, and then EDH simply removes the rune cost. Those are pathetic examples. Next.




Once again, don't even pretend to act like Frost's playstyles have ANY resemblance to Unholy having a ghoul or not. DW and 2H play entirely differently and have different stat weights. Unholy could lose the ghoul and would lose absolutely nothing but a bit of damage. The ghoul does not scale with Multistrike or Mastery and I can't remember if they fixed the problem with it not scaling from Crit.




I would like to, but DW Frost is better right now anyway and I won't be resubbing until the Legion pre-patch. That being said, Ghoul or no Ghoul, Unholy cannot compete with Frost's ST damage. And you're acting like pressing DT is hard? Please. Do you actually even play a Death Knight or are you just trolling?

Dude...stop...just stop...stop trying to turn Unholy into some psuedo 2H Frost...I've seen your post about wanting Unholy to get Frostmourne...it's obvious you just want to turn Unholy into 2H Frost...like I said I'm sorry Frost lost 2H but it would be illogical for them to make two different play styles for Unholy when they're axing the dual play styles for Frost which they could never balance.

Who cares if they don't have a talent for the Ghoul? It's like not Hunter is full of pet affecting talents...plus Warlock is a pet class and they only have one branch that affects demons in the least.

But hmm...lets look at that...what do they have in common...gee I don't know...could it be that all 3 specs of that class has access to pets? I mean Blood and Frost get access to the Ghoul too right?

[KevinLee487]

Honestly Asphyxiate and Death's Advance should be baseline spells. We are the least mobile class in the game and the only one without a basic legitimate CC like Fear, Snare, or Stun. Chains of Ice was good...in early Wrath of the Lich King before they reduced it to 60% from 95%.

Remember when Death and Decay had a chance to fear? Thats the kind of stuff Unholy needs. Not an easily killable pet that does crap damage a majority of the time whose most important role is as a stun-bot.

Dude...stop...just stop...stop trying to turn Unholy into some psuedo 2H Frost...I've seen your post about wanting Unholy to get Frostmourne...it's obvious you just want to turn Unholy into 2H Frost...like I said I'm sorry Frost lost 2H but it would be illogical for them to make two different play styles for Unholy when they're axing the dual play styles for Frost which they could never balance.

Who cares if they don't have a talent for the Ghoul? It's like not Hunter is full of pet affecting talents...plus Warlock is a pet class and they only have one branch that affects demons in the least.

But hmm...lets look at that...what do they have in common...gee I don't know...could it be that all 3 specs of that class has access to pets? I mean Blood and Frost get access to the Ghoul too right?

2H Frost and Unholy are nothing alike and they shouldn't be. Its pretty clear that you don't actually play a Death Knight or have even the smallest inkling of understanding on how they work. Blood and Frost do NOT have access to the Ghoul, if you played a DK for 5 minutes this expansion instead of just looking at the ability list on the talent calculator, you would know that.

May I refer you to this guide so you can find out how to play Unholy?
https://i.imgur.com/fZtVund.png

[Kithelle]

Honestly Asphyxiate and Death's Advance should be baseline spells. We are the least mobile class in the game and the only one without a basic legitimate CC like Fear, Snare, or Stun. Chains of Ice was good...in early Wrath of the Lich King before they reduced it to 60% from 95%.

Remember when Death and Decay had a chance to fear? Thats the kind of stuff Unholy needs. Not an easily killable pet that does crap damage a majority of the time whose most important role is as a stun-bot.



2H Frost and Unholy are nothing alike and they shouldn't be. Its pretty clear that you don't actually play a Death Knight or have even the smallest inkling of understanding on how they work. Blood and Frost do NOT have access to the Ghoul, if you played a DK for 5 minutes this expansion instead of just looking at the ability list on the talent calculator, you would know that. Go troll elsewhere scrub.

Wow really? Did I really have to add the at the end of that of my post...I'm sorry that little point went right over your head (*Whoosh*)...you must be like Sheldon Cooper and sarcasm is a foreign concept to you...okay I'll spell it out in easy terms for you.

Hunters and Warlocks...all three of their specs have access to pets...thus why I'd say they deserve talents aimed towards pets...but they also don't have many talents for pets...2 and 1 respectively. You see here is the point which flew over your head like a 747...Blood and Frost don't have access to pets...Death Knights if you didn't notice share the same talent tree per all three specs (Which makes me pretty sure you have no idea what the hell you're talking about) so why should they have gone out of their way to make a pet specific talent when everything melds together? Or maybe they were to busy trying to make 2H and DW Frost work to make unique talents for the unique DK specs...

[KevinLee487]

...Blood and Frost don't have access to pets...

I mean Blood and Frost get access to the Ghoul too right?

And then the kid wants to post like he knows Death Knights... Hahahaha! This is killing me!

[Kithelle]

Wow really? Did I really have to add the at the end of that of my post...I'm sorry that little point went right over your head (*Whoosh*)...you must be like Sheldon Cooper and sarcasm is a foreign concept to you...okay I'll spell it out in easy terms for you.

Learn to read Kevin...learn to read...do I need to define sarcasm for you? "The use of irony to mock or convey contempt"

See that is sarcasm...sure...you could put me on ignore...go ahead...I wont be crying a river...I'll just be sitting here while Unholy is a pet class and watch your futile attempts to turn Unholy into some want to be 2H Frost.

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C'mon man, this community is better than the petty squabbling. This was actually a pretty interesting post.

Might I suggest that, if you don't think the petless unholy idea should be an option, and you've already stated such without providing much reasoning other than "eh I like it the way it is", you find another thread to haunt? This is an ideas thread.


Back to topic...

I think a major issue (and I got at this, two pages back) with the spec right now is that our theme is supposed to be diseases and undead minions. Currently, we have the same diseases as the other specs (albeit they do slightly more damage for us), a two totally boring attacks (festering and scourge) and one minion, basically, who is only-slightly-not-autopilot. If you think that the Dark Transformation gameplay is dynamic, challenging, and engaging...well, we probably aren't going to agree on much.

I think Unholy, as a spec, needs some more graphical flair. We should have an aura of pestilience and corruption (not just a talent of Unholy Blight). We should have minion(s) plural. Festering Strike and Scourge Strike should be differentiated more than just melee attack+ purple trace lines.

Honestly it would be cool if each stack of Shadow Infusion instead summoned another undead, and then at x stacks they combined into a mega-minion.

I don't do it because it's a "eh I like it this way thing" I do it because it's a "Blizzard hasn't been able to balance two different play styles with Frost thing so I have no faith in them being to do it with Unholy" thing...last thing I want to see is them break another something that actually works.

[KevinLee487]

Yep, I noticed. Ignore is an amazing feature

But anyway, DKs have definitely lost their identity. Blood barely uses weapon strikes anymore, Frost is just a Fury Warrior with a few pixels worth of blue icy effects and Unholy is just a generic 2h user with a special ed pet.

Unholy used to feel a lot more "Death Knight" if you know what I mean. DnD was worth using, Unholy Blight used to have an awesome pestillence looking effect that surrounded your character, you had floating bones around you and there was the "3rd disease" which did the same thing as a Warlock's Curse of Elements and increases disease damage and you could even come back to life as a ghoul for a short time.

It was the quintessential Death Knight spec in terms of thematics. Regretfully, I didn't play Unholy as much in Wrath because I didn't like the Ghoul and always had the option of Armor Pen Blood DPS for stupid burst or Frost for dropping Obliterate crit bombs. Gameplay wise, I think Unholy is far better now than it was initially thanks to Death Runes and SS only costing 1 rune, (I LOVE Necroblight) but its far from what I would call perfect.

[Kithelle]

Never mind...if you want be children and call people names and ignore them, people who don't like your ideas fine...better start ignoring...I'd almost say the greater majority of posts in this thread don't agree with you.

Either way this wont happen so I get the last laugh.

Have fun.

[Deleted]

Why not just make our mastery also increase pet damage?

I know it increases Gary's damage but I'm referring to the ghoul also.

[KevinLee487]

All that would do is increase our reliance on the ghoul in the most boring and lazy way possible, not actually make it an integral part of our kit through mechanics.

The main argument here is that we need to be able to ditch the ghoul completely since its 99% auto-pilot anyway or make it more important through interaction. 2H Frost is going the way of the do-do which leaves those who want to DPS without a pet to either go dual-wield or reroll.

Right now, were on a middle ground between no pet, and a decent bit of spec reliance on the pet. We only need it there for its raw damage, its not interesting or fun in the slightest. On the thematics side of things, the ghoul completely fails on both ends of the spectrum simultaneously. Were supposed to be masters of the undead and decay, yet we only get 1 stank-ass autistic ghoul that doesn't really do anything. Its a redundancy. And then theres the fact that its a random rotting corpse that we consistently have to empower. If we wanted a undead side-kick, we could do a lot better than that.

You'd figure someone who was a master of the undead wouldn't waste their time on amping up a single undead creature that can be replaced in an instant by any nearby slain enemy. They'd get a swarm of them. Theres also the fact that Unholy is a master of decay. Diseases, and Shadow damage should be able to play just as much a part in our overall spec as the undead.

The best way to accomplish that would be to allow players to pick which end of the spectrum they'd like to pursue because nobody interprets things exactly the same way as somebody else, but we don't know if Blizzard is actually capable of that. So thats where the suggestions comes in. Shambulance's suggestions caters to both crowds at once to some degree without actually creating balance issues because its 1 single playstyle. You get to DPS without actually having to deal with DT or even pay attention to any kind of pet, but theres still undead being summoned to attack. In addition to that, it checks all the thematics boxes of an Unholy DK.

[Deleted]

Dks were designed awesome. Now look at us. Were are unholy tanks? Where are bood DPS? This "free" design was like the most shining thing blizzard ever did. And now... we only are one of two hero-classes. Both crippled.

[Maxweii]

While Unholy DK's may be the masters of the undead, they aren't omnipotent. Having one empowered ghoul is likely all we can manage, beyond the temporary summoning of more of them (army).

[Maxweii]

The argument would be to make Unholy constantly summon smaller, weaker undead through actives and passives rather than relying on one "super ghoul," and then to give the DK itself more active/iconic abilities.

We already have a good set of moves and abilities which gives the spec a good feel to it. Unless it gets completely revamped and changed 100% there's no real way that would work. That sounds more like the ranged Unholy option people have wanted, where we summon short duration minions whom melee for us.

[Maxweii]

Being a master of pestilence doesn't mean we need choices of the diseases we use, they are plagues upon our enemies not poisons we put on our blade for X specific use. Using the same diseases makes sense, as we have become accustomed to them and know how to work with them (FS) and even at some times combine them into a true plague (NP).
Yeah the strikes have rather lackluster animations but that barely matters. Thematically it fits perfectly, and throwing bolts of shadow magic and gripping our enemies to us deserve better animations then a strike we use all the time.

Most masteries are dull, it's nothing special with us. Frost has the same thing except for Frost damage instead of Shadow. Ret has essentially the same thing just worded a bit different, Enh shammies as well. Our mastery shows our mastery over shadow damage, the darker side of Death Knights, not much more needed.

[Soikona]

This logic is completely retarded lol
"I cant play the worst dps spec in the game anymore" "Blizzard why are you making me do more damage"
Cmon man you cant be serious

Your view and unwillingness to see things from another persons perspective is what is retarded. You fail to understand the point, to some a 2H feels more epic than DW. I like my DK, but I like 2H weapons, but I don't like DW or unholy, so I stick to frost 2H which is fine considering it's an alt (not doing max damage because I hate pet management annoys me, so that is why it is an alt). What is wrong with let's say level 110 talents (if it happens) that two of them are pet management related and another talent (which I would assume would be less deeps) similar to warlocks sacrifice? You keep what you want, and others get what they want. They will do scrub damage and you can still sit on your high horse preaching you were playing unholy before it was cool.

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I guess, in that respect, I'm arguing that all classes deserve that flavor to be re-introduced. That means for several specs Mastery and Versatility are basically identical (albeit, one is almost always more effective than the other). It would help combat the homogenization everybody feels.

RE: diseases, if ours just do more than Blood/Frost that's kinda boring, don't you think? I'm not suggesting we have to "choose" diseases (as winners will always emerge), I'm saying Unholy should get different diseases, or a different interaction with diseases that happens outside of numbers-enhancing-numbers.

So what you are saying is that (just spitballing) that a new (or re-worked all tier) talent tier for unholy comes out, it is just for diseases. One would be great for AoE (jumping from mob to mob like the LK ability can't remember the name now), another for cleave/burst and another for ST? If so I can get on that boat! If I got the wrong end of it, let me know.

[KevinLee487]

Hopefully our talents get overhauled and we actually get some talents that adjust based on your spec.

There have been some rumblings about the rune system getting a major overhaul at the very least.

[Maxweii]

Hopefully our talents get overhauled and we actually get some talents that adjust based on your spec.

There have been some rumblings about the rune system getting a major overhaul at the very least.

The only rumblings I have heard of that are fan made, and even then, not needed.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

A rogue revamp has been "on the radar" but "not needed" since early Wrath, which is a recipe for stagnation and another class coming along (Hi, Monks,) getting the stuff your class should've had.

With Demon Hunters taking the class devs' attention, it's going to be hard for other classes to get much of anything.

It's a bit silly and bad resources to think all classes won't get attention for the sake of Demon Hunters. They have a lot of devs. They'll be able to do stuff to all the classes. As to how much, that is a real question.

[KevinLee487]

The only rumblings I have heard of that are fan made, and even then, not needed.

Apparently Blizzard hired Skullflower and another knowledgeable DK to help design the class for Legion.

[Maxweii]

Apparently Blizzard hired Skullflower and another knowledgeable DK to help design the class for Legion.

Skull is a raid tester, while he has weight there with his responses he's not a dev. Even then this isn't a form of rumbling for class redesign.