Modernizing PvE endgame beyond Legion.

[Pua]

This was originally posted in a thread about Mythic being exclusive to 20-man groups, but it probably deserves its own thread because it's not about Legion specifically.

Endgame needs a whole new approach.

When push comes to shove, there's no change Blizzard can make that won't piss people off. We got here because of never-ending tinkers with a system that was probably broken to begin with, and we're now approaching the stage where tweaks won't be as effective as simply tearing the bandage off altogether and treating the wound underneath properly. The opening up of raiding in Wrath of the Lich King was arguably the best decision the game ever made, but it was clear that "real" raiding remained the practice of people in 25-man guilds, and these guilds were much better for the community as a whole.

In Cataclysm, the community was splintered because of a reward-sharing approach that was disproportionately skewed in one direction; toward 10-man guilds. Mists of Pandaria continued this, cementing the preeminence of 10-man guilds, only for Warlords of Draenor to enforce at 20-man setting that gutted the 10-man scene.

To be honest, content provision for groups needs a ground-up series of modernizations, and an encompassing approach that includes everyone.

For example, skirmishes could be designed for three to six players; dungeons could be designed for eight to sixteen players; raids could be designed for sixteen to thirty players. Rather than a difficulty slider, the instance itself should have a difficulty curve that increases as it moves on, culminating in what is now heroic difficulty. Individual bosses in either skirmishes, dungeons or raids could be tuned beyond that, assuming the flexible size of group isn't a roadblock. The never-ending difficulty slider needs to go, and players should be given fresh content at a significantly better pace than it's delivered at now, with major patches alternating between what's provided.

Remove the traditional idea of "tiers", where you gear up to BiS on every one. Have expansions last two years, with a patch every four months.

x.0: Launch content.
x.1: A skirmish and two raids.
x.2: Two dungeons and a raid.
x.3: Two skirmishes and a raid.
x.4: Two skirmishes and a dungeon.
x.5: Two dungeons and a raid.
x+1.0: New expansion.

Given that people will suggest that such a content rate is impossible, ignoring that other studios can almost do it on a fraction of Blizzard's resources, you could still have a two-year expansion cycle with six-montly patches.

x.0: Launch content.
x.1: A skirmish and a raid.
x.2: A skirmish and a dungeon.
x.3: A dungeon and a raid.
x+1.0: New expansion.

Under this model, the question isn't about difficulty - it's about whether or not you want to play all of the content. If you're in a really small guild, you get challenging group content in major patches; if you're in a medium-sized guild, you get challenging group content in the form of skirmishes and dungeons; if you're in a big guild, you get to play everything and the incentive for guilds to expand is obvious.

Unfortunately, nothing like this will even be considered. There are lots of reasons but, mainly, it all falls down to two things:

1) The game is old, and this is a fundamental change in how endgame is delivered by a group of developers resistant to change.
2) The community cannot accept the fact that not everybody can have everything, or that what's good for the game might not be good for them.

Sadly, even if a new game was to go this route, we'd still see a community argue with itself over what it does, and does not, have access to.

As gamers, frankly, we deserve much better than we get.

[Deleted]

In my opinion what endgame really needs is variety.

Nothing forces any developer to just offer dailies, dungeons and raids as PVE endgame content or arenas/bg as pvp endgame content. Aren't we in a WORLD of warcraft? Isn't it supposed to be an adventure rather than a monotonous gear treadmill routine?

Why not add random events across the whole of Azeroth such as invasions just like the WOTLK event (without the ghouls) or a world boss attacking a capital once and a while?Maybe also an attack by mercenaries and rogue nations? Or an event asking the whole server to look for a hidden relic that would benefit your faction for a while?

Why not add content based on investigation, spying or diplomacy instead of BASHING everything. Seriously this game feels like diablo where you solve everything with bash, killing. I don't want to play world of diablo but an actual MMO RPG

[Pua]

In my opinion what endgame really needs is variety.

Nothing forces any developer to just offer dailies, dungeons and raids as PVE endgame content or arenas/bg as pvp endgame content. Aren't we in a WORLD of warcraft? Isn't it supposed to be an adventure rather than a monotonous gear treadmill routine?

Why not add random events across the whole of Azeroth such as invasions just like the WOTLK event (without the ghouls) or a world boss attacking a capital once and a while?Maybe also an attack by mercenaries and rogue nations? Or an event asking the whole server to look for a hidden relic that would benefit your faction for a while?

Why not add content based on investigation, spying or diplomacy instead of BASHING everything. Seriously this game feels like diablo where you solve everything with bash, killing. I don't want to play world of diablo but an actual MMO RPG

I agree with largely everything you said.

My post is specifically about group-PvE endgame provision, but there's no doubt that a significant number of other options should be provided.

[Zka]

In my opinion what endgame really needs is variety.

Nothing forces any developer to just offer dailies, dungeons and raids as PVE endgame content or arenas/bg as pvp endgame content. Aren't we in a WORLD of warcraft? Isn't it supposed to be an adventure rather than a monotonous gear treadmill routine?

Why not add random events across the whole of Azeroth such as invasions just like the WOTLK event (without the ghouls) or a world boss attacking a capital once and a while?Maybe also an attack by mercenaries and rogue nations? Or an event asking the whole server to look for a hidden relic that would benefit your faction for a while?

Why not add content based on investigation, spying or diplomacy instead of BASHING everything. Seriously this game feels like diablo where you solve everything with bash, killing. I don't want to play world of diablo but an actual MMO RPG

Very good ideas.
I think that procedurally generated random pve content would be a pretty great thing to add.

[Pua]

Very good ideas.
I think that procedurally generated random pve content would be a pretty great thing to add.

Only if it was developmental.

What we don't need, is more disposable content that becomes redundant as soon as a raid opens.

[ComputerNerd]

What other studios can or cant produce is a poor argument, as they are not making a WoW clone, nor do they have the legacy and baggage to contend with.
If those games are always so much better at producing content, why are not they attracting the numbers that the "wow-killer" crowds suggest they should be.

I would argue that blizzard are doing well with a range of inclusive content, as shown particularly by the LFR hate from people upset that they aren't the sole audience.

[Greenthy]

What other studios can or cant produce is a poor argument, as they are not making a WoW clone, nor do they have the legacy and baggage to contend with.
If those games are always so much better at producing content, why are not they attracting the numbers that the "wow-killer" crowds suggest they should be.

I would argue that blizzard are doing well with a range of inclusive content, as shown particularly by the LFR hate from people upset that they aren't the sole audience.

Using subscriber counts is also a poor argument.
One of the main reasons contenders fail to bang in on the buck is:
- networking (all the friends you made/have in WoW)
- known & polished systems (AH, specs, ...)
- known name (the ammount of non-MMO players that know WoW as opposed to say wildstar)

New games have a hard time to beat wow as they need to beat WoW at all these factors, provide above said content and all of that with a smaller budget.
That's almost as good as impossible, same way it is very hard to start off a new car brand, even though you can provide good cars.
(Tesla is one of the examples that's in the progress of pulling it off, but is still only aiming at a niche market and thus has lower overall sales)

[Trickname]

I'd love more variety in end-game, I know it was Blizzard PR but I'm actually of that demographic that doesn't have as much time these days (being 24 instead of 14). I don't see the point in being subbed anymore because I know I can't commit to a heroic / mythic raiding schedule these days, LFR is just hell and normal is too easy. It would be nice to be able to obtain stuff around the current heroic level from other sources just that it take a lot longer to obtain but could be achieved when you have like all weekend to play but no time during mid-week (pretty much how badges in late TBC gave gear just under the Sunwell's level).

Elitists would whine but Blizzard themselves admit the player-base is getting older and has less time, I imagine there would be more like me who would sub if a good grade of gear was still obtainable through slow grinding methods which you could do in your own time.

[Pua]

What other studios can or cant produce is a poor argument, as they are not making a WoW clone, nor do they have the legacy and baggage to contend with.

The only poor argument I ever see is that Blizzard "haven't got the resources to make more content", when their worst expansion pack to date has still managed to make over $2b; a tiny fraction of which has gone back into the game.

I'd love more variety in end-game, I know it was Blizzard PR but I'm actually of that demographic that doesn't have as much time these days (being 24 instead of 14).

I know what you're saying, and I agree. The game desperately needs more forms of actual progression, and I'm hoping beyond hope that artifact weapons are going to be a part of that. I suppose I just think that group-PvE content is something Blizzard invariably does very well and, as such, they should look to modernize without a never-ending difficulty slider that's doing nobody any favours.

[Glorious Leader]

My suspicion is that artifact weapons will be like the legendary quest lines in mop and wod. Back to raiding as quickly as possible.

[Pua]

My suspicion is that artifact weapons will be like the legendary quest lines in mop and wod. Back to raiding as quickly as possible.

If that's the case, then it's back to boredom and needless player bleed as quickly as possible.

[edmorte]

Reinventing the wheel, never gave a better wheel, but people keep trying.

TBC got it right. People are just ignorant to the fact or too stubborn.

If you keep this linear progression scheme, the game will never live more than the time to down the last raid boss.

Empower the player, stop streaming everything thru raids.

TBC model was abandoned cuz RAIDER QQ they should have everything since they spent a lot of time raiding. HUUUUGE MISTAKE!

What can i say? They keep saying MoP model was awesome... Stupidity kills itself, natural order.

Why a mythic geared player will log back into the game if the world around him as nothing to offer??? Think guys.

Stop putting the master prize only in raids, and stop making the world fair. Let the world pvp flow with unfairness and guilds coming to the aid, like in TM x Southshore.

It amazes me how short the memory of the average player is. New Tech + Old model = awesomeness.

[Glorious Leader]

If that's the case, then it's back to boredom and needless player bleed as quickly as possible.

They seem tk be immune to being fired and logic. The team doesn't try and let subscriber numbers dictate game design and is more concerned with wether the player base is having fun. Okay those 5 million who left were not having fun....subscriber fluctuation especially on the scale in WoD should indicate people not having fun

[lizon]

I hope the fact that they mentioned that the crafting team was the largest it's ever been bears fruit. It would be amazing if they turned crafting into a form of endgame.

[Thage]

I hope the fact that they mentioned that the crafting team was the largest it's ever been bears fruit. It would be amazing if they turned crafting into a form of endgame.

That would be groovy. I've always liked the idea of retiring my warrior to focus on her blacksmithing (she's a human and as human lifespans go, she's been fighting one war after another for an awful long time; she's liable to be feeling it in her joints something fierce by now despite still technically being in her prime). Being able to deliver on that concept, however, has proven more difficult than it's worth, since there's not much by way of an endgame to be had from crafting ever since they started gutting professions as an activity for casuals to pursue after 3.0 (the last thing I remember creating of any value that could be crafted without raid materials was the Titansteel Destroyer). Being able to craft basic PvP gear in Cataclysm and MoP was nice, I guess, but I'd really like to see a return of the days of the Arcanite Reaper, where a smith can do dungeon quests for a rare recipe and create a highly-sought-after weapon without needing materials from within a raid.

[lizon]

That would be groovy. I've always liked the idea of retiring my warrior to focus on her blacksmithing (she's a human and as human lifespans go, she's been fighting one war after another for an awful long time; she's liable to be feeling it in her joints something fierce by now despite still technically being in her prime). Being able to deliver on that concept, however, has proven more difficult than it's worth, since there's not much by way of an endgame to be had from crafting ever since they started gutting professions as an activity for casuals to pursue after 3.0 (the last thing I remember creating of any value that could be crafted without raid materials was the Titansteel Destroyer). Being able to craft basic PvP gear in Cataclysm and MoP was nice, I guess, but I'd really like to see a return of the days of the Arcanite Reaper, where a smith can do dungeon quests for a rare recipe and create a highly-sought-after weapon without needing materials from within a raid.

Since we can't just revamp the whole crafting system to have rotations like other mmo's we would have to take a different approach. Crafting dailies would be a given. You would have crafting dailies that reward tokens or seals or something that can be exchanged for high level crafting materials or gear. You could have gear that boost crafting.

Could could get crafting artifact weapons that gain XP the more crafting and dailies you do that can speed up your crafting, or increase your level of crafting, maybe add a chance for warforged, or a socket, or certain bonuses.

You could introduce extensive questlines that are expanded every 3 months that have you crafting rare items for gear or experience. If you wanted to get even more detailed you could make is so that you could upgrade previous gear to higher level gear using high crafting skill. I would even make it retroactive so that old crafted gear now has relevance.

There are a whole bunch of ways in which it could be done. I just don't see blizzard doing it.

[Yuna]

My suspicion is that artifact weapons will be like the legendary quest lines in mop and wod. Back to raiding as quickly as possible.

Of course, the "relics" to empower your artifact will drop in various qualities depending on the content you do. There might be green/blue upgrades in heroic dungeons and "class" quests, a low tier epic one from a world boss and all the "good" stuff will be tied to raids as usual.

The best relics will of course only be obtainable via mythic difficulty raiding and high end pvp. ("endgame" content)

[onaldtieace]

It would be amazing if they turned crafting into a form of endgame.

[Floopa]

I just want LFR to be how it was in MoP. That's it. I will never raid as an organized, scheduled raider again because I simply can't nor want to dedicate multiple nights to raiding. I just want LFR to not be a complete and utter waste of time like it is now. The gear is garbage. The content is basically afk-able. It's atrocious.

LFR shouldnt award tier gear.

that's just cancerous gameplay.

[Deleted]

Something tells me you are looking at trees and lose the forest. Are you bored of the game in overall by any chance?

It seems all your suggestions are "change difficulty of dungeon/raid here and there and gate it differently".

The game does not have a major problem in raiding/dungeoning at the moment. It has other issues.