Flying Middle Ground Discussion

[schwarzkopf]

I wanted to discuss 'the middle ground' options on flying, separate to the massive discussions on both sides about YES vs NO.

By middle ground, I'm not talking about how hard/easy it is to unlock flying, I'm talking about options other than 'NO flying' and 'YES flying' - that fall somewhere in the middle.

If you want to discuss yes flying vs no flying -> here is one of many threads to do it in
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...l-awesome-quot

If not - I'll kick off with a few suggested paths Legion and following expansions could take it, these are not holeproof ideas, and I'd love some constructive feedback on making them work, or brand new ideas. I'd add any cool ideas I've not thought of to this post with attribution. These four are in rough order of my preferred middle grounds. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

1. Make it cost resources to fly
Like food for the mount, maybe different food for different mounts (oil for the flying machines, fish for the birds, plants for the herbavours etc) - to allow them to fly. Let's assume they use a lot less energy and can graze whilst on the ground, and don't need ANY of this stuff in that case. This opens up awesome new quest ideas, gathering ideas - even special food that lasts longer etc. Tuning for this would be time vs cost etc, for example you would need to be able to farm more of the food per 'hour' by a good margin than it costs per 'hour' to fly around farming it.

2. Make flying as dangerous as ground mounts.
The thing that makes flying 'sweet' is how safe it is. If they had wandering flying critters, even flying bosses (not flying combat as such - but you could aggro a flying boss and bring it down to the ground to fight). These guys wouldn't just blissfully ignore you on their inferior mounts rather - they could catch you and hurt you. This might open up the beginnings of flying combat come the expansion after legion.

3. Allow player dismounting of other players
(aka the new 6.2.1 toy from the new Tanaan rare)
Make it so that whilst flying, you can be targeted and dismounted (yes you too Druids, yes you PvE server players), add a parachute to make it fair maybe. This would add a little risk to an otherwise risk free concept.

4. Make flying CD based (my least favourite option)
a: Making taking off CD based, would give you the freedom of getting places easily - but the cost/benefit of hopping everywhere becomes the choice.
b: Make flying mounts like hunter pets, you have say 10 'flyable' and each mount has a certain fly time per reset period (e.g. an hour/week) lots of tuning there.
c: Make flying mounts tire easily, so they need a rest after flying for 5 minutes etc.

[rda]

No to 1, 2, 4, OK to 3.

I am not sure you want reasoning, if you want, say so.

[Deleted]

1. Make it cost resources to fly
Like food for the mount, maybe different food for different mounts (oil for the flying machines, fish for the birds, plants for the herbavours etc) - to allow them to fly. Let's assume they use a lot less energy and can graze whilst on the ground, and don't need ANY of this stuff in that case. This opens up awesome new quest ideas, gathering ideas - even special food that lasts longer etc. Tuning for this would be time vs cost etc, for example you would need to be able to farm more of the food per 'hour' by a good margin than it costs per 'hour' to fly around farming it.

2. Make flying as dangerous as ground mounts.
The thing that makes flying 'sweet' is how safe it is. If they had wandering flying critters, even flying bosses (not flying combat as such - but you could aggro a flying boss and bring it down to the ground to fight). These guys wouldn't just blissfully ignore you on their inferior mounts rather - they could catch you and hurt you. This might open up the beginnings of flying combat come the expansion after legion.

3. Allow player dismounting of other players
(aka the new 6.2.1 toy from the new Tanaan rare)
Make it so that whilst flying, you can be targeted and dismounted (yes you too Druids), add a parachute to make it fair maybe. This would add a little risk to an otherwise risk free concept.

4. Make flying CD based (my least favourite option)
a: Making taking off CD based, would give you the freedom of getting places easily - but the cost/benefit of hopping everywhere becomes the choice.
b: Make flying mounts like hunter pets, you have say 10 'flyable' and each mount has a certain fly time per reset period (e.g. an hour/week) lots of tuning there.
c: Make flying mounts tire easily, so they need a rest after flying for 5 minutes etc.

Passionate pro-flyer / strictly PvE here:

1. Why? Is it not enough that every mount costs a decent amount of money? I have spent hundred thousands of gold on mounts and riding / flying skills on more than one character, 19 of these are level 90 or above. Some mounts are even very pricey. And a constant upkeep does not make sense. You don't need to regularily feed your own character, or your battle pets, why a mount then?

2. This could be interesting, at least in high-end areas. BC had by far the best experience in this regard, like Kaliris in Skettis or the Fel Cannons around Ogri'La, also the flying guards.

3. Would surely be a great additon on PvP realms, but useless on PvE realms.

4. I would prefer something like exhaustion for flying too high above the ground, because the air is getting thinner there and it's also too cold. So, there could be a corridor where you can fly indefinitely - not too high above the ground, but with an option for navigating the edge between the anti-flight units (like Kaliris and cannons) and the higher areas where you slowly suffocate, so if you pay attention, you can avoid both - but then you are actively flying / navigating to gain this advantage.

I would also like to add 5:
They already have weather effects. They could add wind conditions to spice up flying a bit.

Besides all that: I am OK with flying tied to an achievement which combines exploring, questing, and securing areas, but it should be available right after launch, so people who regard flying as important can concentrate on achieving their goal right away. When they want to gate flying with a "earliest possible date after launch", they can tie it to a gated questline where you secure different areas of the new expansion, similar to the apexis dailys or the Garrison questline.

Reputations on the other hand are too much, just like treasures. I am doing most of these anyway, but it's just overboard.

[Deleted]

TL;DR: There is no middle ground. Back under your bridge.

1. It always did. Unlocking flight has always cost a significant (for average plater in kinda-current-content) amount of resource called "gold". Making it either unavailable through cost or too costly to bother is not middle ground.
2. There is nothing dangerous about running on a ground mount unless you ride into Kazzak. Such change would only provide some annoyance. Providing annoyance to spoil the fun of people who don't share your definition of Muh Immersion is not middle ground.
3. Gank deprivation was one of the most voiced reasons for wing clip. Nerfing "normal flight" in the manner that achieves the same goal is the same as full wing clip and as such makes a rather sad joke (as in "I'm slightly sad at your joke about this shit being middle ground".
4. Not significantly different from better designed taxi.

In case some "middle ground" trolls missed the point: free flight is free flight. Making it non-free in any manner is not middle ground, even if you graciously acquiesce to make it non-free only in some facy manners.

Also, in case someone missed something, I just discussed supposed middle ground options regarding flight. I showed them not to be middle ground at all.

[schwarzkopf]

No to 1, 2, 4, OK to 3.

I am not sure you want reasoning, if you want, say so.

As to preference yeah, with improvements to my 1,2 and 4 if possible.

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TL;DR: There is no middle ground. Back under your bridge.

1. It always did. Unlocking flight has always cost a significant

Ok - so you didn't read the question, I feel I can safely ignore your response.

[Deleted]

As an afterthought, I have no problems with some special, very limited areas of the world being effectively flightless with come convincing explanation.
Flying guards over major faction towns - yip, why not.
Certain small areas with strong air defence - k, will do.

Every patch of land inhabited by aggressive oneshottable flying critters that will just not fuck off and keep dazing me - no, thanks.

<update>
Of course, what I consider middle ground, that is some few, small, very special places where flight is not really available, is not even remotely close to anything that anti-flyer crowd would ever consider middle ground.

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As to preference yeah, with improvements to my 1,2 and 4 if possible.

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Ok - so you didn't read the question, I feel I can safely ignore your response.

Of course you can, or rather you have to. Otherwise you'd have to somehow address the reasons why there is no real middle ground.

[Imnick]

I think this would satisfy nobody. All this does is make flying unsatisfying, upsetting the players who want to do it, whilst still allowing it to be used to skip content.
It is impractical to choke the skies with birds who will attack you, and you can time your fall into a strategic location. It's not fun to manage feeding your mount. Players dismounting each other to PvP is an entirely separate concern to most people's objections.

This "middle ground" would just make everyone unhappy.

[Deleted]

I want to add to 1:
Special Food in WoW is reserved for performance enhancement, not performance enabling. Following this logic, special fuel or food for mounts would either increase riding speed als long as the "well fed mount" buff lasts, or enable other beneficial effects, like reducing or removing stuns or dismount effects.

Add to 2:
I was speaking about high-end areas, not leveling ones, since most of us don't expect flying while leveling.

[schwarzkopf]

1. Why? Is it not enough that every mount costs a decent amount of money?

Good point, however currently there is no maintenance cost for flying (e.g. repairs, food etc for raiding)... what if you got a big cash payout based on the mounts you have paid for etc... one off 'compensation' ?

2. This could be interesting, at least in high-end areas. BC had by far the best experience in this regard, like Kaliris in Skettis or the Fel Cannons around Ogri'La, also the flying guards.

Assume I'm talking only current content areas...

3. Would surely be a great additon on PvP realms, but useless on PvE realms.

Not at all, the new toy being added in 6.2.1 knocks you off your mount, PVP flagged or no, that's the idea - doesn't allow attacking you, just your mount.

4. I would prefer something like exhaustion for flying too high above the ground, because the air is getting thinner there and it's also

But there would need to be a cost associated with 'flying' - would you say flying within NPC sniper range, making it effectively the same as idea #2 ?

I would also like to add 5:
They already have weather effects. They could add wind conditions to spice up flying a bit.

Awesome idea... updrafts, downdrafts... take you off course if you afk somewhere above the ground. That's nice.
Besides all that: I am OK with flying tied to an achievement which combines exploring, questing, and securing areas, but it should be available right after launch, so people who regard flying as important can concentrate on achieving their goal right away. When they want to gate flying with a "earliest possible date after launch", they can tie it to a gated questline where you secure different areas of the new expansion, similar to the apexis dailys or the Garrison questline.

Reputations on the other hand are too much, just like treasures. I am doing most of these anyway, but it's just overboard.[/QUOTE]

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Of course you can, or rather you have to.

Well, I specifically said "THIS IS NOT ABOUT HOW EASY HARD it is to OBTAIN FLYING"...

[Itisamuh]

There is absolutely no middle ground. Flying under any circumstance hurts the merit of the ground based game and pisses off the people who want it gone, and removing flying altogether pisses off the people who want it around for convenience. There is no way to compromise on this, one side wins, the other loses.

[schwarzkopf]

I think this would satisfy nobody. All this does is make flying unsatisfying,

Do you find walking in WoW unsatisfying, or riding your ground mount ? Each of those has a 'cost', why would having a 'cost' for flying make it unsatisfying.

Seems to me - it would make flying exciting. Depending on which 'cost' you have of course.

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There is absolutely no middle ground.

Yes there is - there is always middle ground, one only has to look. If you believe only in YES or NO, then this is not the thread for you.

The way to make it work is the same way any commodity works, you set a price that makes the buyer and seller happy.

[rda]

As to preference yeah, with improvements to my 1,2 and 4 if possible.

OK.

It's simple. We don't need the middle ground, the entire idea that we need it is strange. Why do we need it? To settle what? The desire of Blizzard to prolong content and the desire of players to spend less time getting to content and more time doing that content? I am not going to negotiate with them on that, and while I might tolerate some restrictions more than others, it's merely about whether these restrictions get in the way too often or not - if they do, the game reduces to whatever is possible without travel, because travel is artificially slowed down, and, chances are, what's left is not enough to keep a sub going. I imagine I am far from alone in this as well.

So, why not make flying cost resources - because that will get in the way by definition, because I figure you'd like the cost to be high enough to matter. Why not make flying as dangerous as going by ground - because that's part of why I am flying, to be able to skip fighting the same mobs which I have beaten hundreds of times and that are now just a waste of time. Why not put flying onto a CD - because that will get in the way as well, because, again, I figure you'd like the CD to be long enough to prohibit most flying.

Why dismounting players is OK - as long as it puts you into PVP mode, and only if it has a radius which you can exceed - because this has proven to more or less work and not be a nuisance.

You won't like my improvements to 1, 2 and 4 - all of them would be to make it so that the effect of the measures you propose are minimized. Ie, I would be fine with a CD of 1 minute. Because I think that's tolerable. The problem is, if that turns out to be too restrictive still, I'd like it shortened, and if it turns out to be not restrictive, Blizzard would like it lengthened. I don't believe in compromises regarding flying, players and Blizzard are on completely opposite directions.

[Deleted]

Good point, however currently there is no maintenance cost for flying (e.g. repairs, food etc for raiding)... what if you got a big cash payout based on the mounts you have paid for etc... one off 'compensation' ?

Assume I'm talking only current content areas...

Not at all, the new toy being added in 6.2.1 knocks you off your mount, PVP flagged or no, that's the idea - doesn't allow attacking you, just your mount.

But there would need to be a cost associated with 'flying' - would you say flying within NPC sniper range, making it effectively the same as idea #2 ?

Awesome idea... updrafts, downdrafts... take you off course if you afk somewhere above the ground.

Why should flying cost as much as raiding? You don't gain any character power with flying alone. It's only the means to get to content or to get a change in perspective.

I would strictly separate max level areas from the rest. You should have options to have areas to be completely clear for flying, because you already have fought and bested all the challenges there while leveling.

Why should someone on a PvE server want to knock me off my mount besides griefing? No. Definitely no.

[schwarzkopf]

I want to add to 1:
Special Food in WoW is reserved for performance enhancement, not performance enabling.

Repairs on the other hand, following the ENTIRE logic - are not. At a certain point if you don't repair, you are disabled (for all realistic definitions of disabled).

Add to 2:
I was speaking about high-end areas, not leveling ones, since most of us don't expect flying while leveling.

Ok, not wanting to get into a discussion on that, want to focus on the actual ideas, not the when/where or how we use them

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OK.

It's simple. We don't need the middle ground,

Then maybe this thread isn't for you

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Why should flying cost as much as raiding?

I'm not saying it should - ONE option is resources, just ONE - not saying what or how much it costs. I'm just saying there needs to be a cost to something otherwise it isn't optional.

That is just reality... the cost can be all sorts of things - and that's what I'm trying to discuss in this thread. The possibilities of what that cost is.

The fact is - there needs to be a cost if flying is to be optional.

[Darknessvamp]

I disagree with your first and fourth points mostly due to them just being slingshot limitations that would end up being complained about to no end and would be phased out like hunter food, ranged ammo and long HS CDs. However I think the second point could work as long as it's not implemented in a ridiculous fashion with the skies just being absolutely chock full of aerial hazards that it would be impossibl to use flying and as a counter to your third point how about instead Blizzard goes back to that idea they had during Wrath development to make aerial and mounted combant a thing. Would open up so many new possibilities.

[Deleted]

I'm fine with their current paradgim, disallowing flying for the first half of the expansion and allowing it for the second half of the expansion.
As long as it's set in stone and confirmed by an ingame "Pathfinder" achievement that explicitly says it.

It's more about psychological effect and the feeling of something being taken away from you. NO FLYING EVAH! from Polygon interview made me die a little inside, once I realized that I've spent 4+ million gold and 180 EUR on flying mounts in this game. Not because it's inconvenient, it's really not that bad... Fly paths & Aviana's Feather & teleport network is just as efficient as flying mount. But the feeling of your effort and money being thrown into a trash can by reckless delusional developer saying garbage? Noooo. Cut me a slack on that.

I'm curious how they are going to do Dalaran without flying though. Dalaran will be very similar to Wrath dalaran from what I've heard and it having no flying will feel... awkward. Idk, maybe Dalaran being a bubble with flying allowed from the start?

[rda]

I'm curious how they are going to do Dalaran without flying though. Dalaran will be very similar to Wrath dalaran from what I've heard and it having no flying will feel... awkward. Idk, maybe Dalaran being a bubble with flying allowed from the start?

Perhaps, portals.

[Schizoide]

I'd be fine with a mix of making flying dangerous and allowing player dismounting. Forcing me to farm to fly, or cooldowns, would cause me to quit.

Well I already quit due to flying not coming in 7.0, so that's largely academic, but still.

Regarding Dalaran, we were not allowed to fly there in WOTLK. When we flew into Dalaran, we got a 10 second timer at the end of which we were automatically dismounted.

[Deleted]

Well, I specifically said "THIS IS NOT ABOUT HOW EASY HARD it is to OBTAIN FLYING"...

And then you proceeded to present extra maintenance costs of flight as a possible middle ground. Whether you pay some every time you want to fly or up-front in one big lump to enable it is effectively the same thing, unless you specifically propose a situation where "acceptable maintenance costs" (acceptable by the merit of constituting middle ground) would translate into, say 1M gold pieces paid up front to enable flight. If maintenance costs do not translate into this kind of price, they are insignificant and development time is wasted on them. If they do, they are equivalent to wing clip and do not constitute any kind of middle ground.

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The fact is - there needs to be a cost if flying is to be optional.

Ah, what a delicious middle ground you're negotiating here LOL

[schwarzkopf]

I. However I think the second point could work as long as it's not implemented in a ridiculous fashion with the skies just being Would open up so many new possibilities.

No - my aim was to make flying across a zone as dangerous as walking along a path in a zone.

For example - walking on a road sometimes you see some mobs, you have to walk around them or risk being nabbed. Would basically be the same for flying. Sometimes you might find a nastier piece of work, or even a rare and WANT to bring it down to kill it.

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Ah, what a delicious middle ground you're negotiating here LOL

Exactly - I'm trying to avoid the YES and NO flying camps, and to do that flying needs to be optional - truly optional.

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And then you proceeded to present extra maintenance costs of flight as a possible middle ground.

Yes, because that isn't about obtaining flying... that is about the cost of flying once obtained.