Why Ravenholdt Will (Probably) Not Be the Rogue Order Hall

[Blayke]

I started playing as a rogue mid-Lich King. Levelled fairly quickly considering I had never played this type of game before, and before long I found myself at The Hero's Welcome in Dalaran. I gotta say, it just didn't feel right. It was like walking into the Ritz-Carlton and being worried that I might track mud on the carpet. "This is no place for the likes of me", I thought.

And then I discovered (remember, I was new at this) that there was another world down in the sewers, and after my first visit I realized I had found my true home.

So yeah, like most rogues I would have preferred Ravenholdt, if for no other reason than my fond memories of the legendary quest line. But I can live with the sewers. They're moody and atmospheric, and to me at least, they just feel right. I like being an outcast.

And yes, I know they won't be the same sewers that I remember, but I have to assume the theme will be in the same veing. Hopefully Blizzard makes them as cool and roguish as possible.

[Lynneiah]

It also assumes that portals aren't easily made by any random mage, you can have a class hall in Pandaria if you want. Just walk into a portal and voila, you're at Dalaran again...

Screw Pandaria. Apparently having a hall on literally another planet is an option.

[Deleted]

Fixed that for you.

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Speaking of the warlock Class Order planet...

I recommend just ignoring him. If he isn't trolling, he surely is mentally handicapped for demanding better arguments and yet giving none himself and ignores any valid posts made against him. Ah internet!

infracted: flaming

[Hitei]

demanding better arguments and yet giving none himself and ignores any valid posts made against him. Ah internet!

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post35689741

[MiseryTheRogue]

Maybe because Demon Hunters will be the new stars , rogues will be sent at the sewers to clean the shit !

[Deathgoose]

Cause a building can't be rebuilt, perhaps bigger and better?

Not if you're a park or barracks in Stormwind.

Ravenholdt would make sense for Rogues, but, eh, not holding out hope.

[Super Kami Dende]

People keep saying "fan-favourite" for Ravenholdt.

Literally none of the Rogue players I know that got Fangs like Ravenholdt. I don't either. It is such a boring place.

Dalaran Rogue Den ftw.

[thottstation]

Warlocks can open portals. Did you learn crazy portal magic recently on your rogue?

Yes. It's a magic rock I carry in my backpack. I call it a Hearthstone.

And by your logic, there's ZERO REASON why Dalaran shouldn't still be in Northrend. Mages can use portals; feel safe and sound in Northrend, and have a permanant portal to the Broken Isles so mages (and for that matter, the rest of us) can pop over whenever we like.

But this isn't about making sense. It's about being right, because it makes sense to me, and everyone else is wrong wrong wrong.

The only positive in all of this is the schadenfreude we can all delight and share in, as we point and laugh when it's announced that the Class Order Hall for hunters is in Sunken Temple. Because it was emptied by "heroes" long ago, and is in the Swamp of Sorrows, which is full of dangerous animals to be tamed as pets, and the swamps are excellent training grounds for young hunters. It makes sense, if you think about it. Don't get mad, just wait and see before criticising. You might be amazed at what Blizzard can do in that temple.

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The only reason they place a class in one place or another is because they feel that it fits the theme they want for that concept.
... this is a debate about what is a rogue for them and what is a rogue for the players. Clearly they have collided head-on

I also believe in the laughable, yet bizarre enough to be true posibility that the people designing the Class Order Halls quite simply didn't know about Ravenholdt. They didn't play WoW in vanilla. They don't read wikis about "lore". They got hired by Blizzard only a few years ago, with bright eyes and big plans and have such amazing ideas that the players will love! And they've played other games, and see things like shady thieves in dark underground caves, and think "yeah, I'll copy that and put it in WoW! It'll be so cool!" And players say "But that's not us. That's some other game. Rogues have always been about Ravenholdt!" And the designers read their Twitter and say "Raven-what?" And they google it. And go "........ oh. Huh. Okay. Well.... that's Old WoW(tm). I'm taking it to cool, new places! This game will be much better if it would just copy other games I like!"

I say this, because I have to believe it is the only explanation for the WoD Launch Day catastrophe. The AQ Event was the most famous event in WoW history, and everyone knew why it was such a disaster: millions of players massing in one zone, at the same time, for one big event. And for all those years designing and developing WoD, these people thought to themselves "Yeah, we'll have all these players assemble in one zone at the same time, then all move as one when the clock strikes into one zone, all at the same time, where they can click on one little thing. THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE, SO DON'T BLAME US IF THINGS GO BADLY. WE LEARN BY DOING."

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Anything destroyed can be rebuilt. The Ravenholdt leader being dead just means there's an opening for the rogue.

Gee, if only there was a hero...a champion rogue out there who had braved many dangers and survived, had slain dragons and elemental lords, stormed citadels of death and ancient kingdoms and come out victorious, become masters of legendary weapons and was reknowned as mighty adventurers and had recently become experienced in being a commander of troops and, through leadership and resolve, become a qualified general who even has Garona Halforcen, one of the most infamous rogues in history, counted as serving under their command. Such a lauded rogue would be the perfect choice to be the wielder of a great artifact weapon known only to rogues, and assume leadership of the Assassins Guild and rebuild Ravenholdt Manor... only better, because there's no peons to fall asleep on the job.

If only there were such a champion...

[Hitei]

Yes. It's a magic rock I carry in my backpack. I call it a Hearthstone.

And by your logic, there's ZERO REASON why Dalaran shouldn't still be in Northrend. Mages can use portals; feel safe and sound in Northrend, and have a permanant portal to the Broken Isles so mages (and for that matter, the rest of us) can pop over whenever we like.

But this isn't about making sense. It's about being right, because it makes sense to me, and everyone else is wrong wrong wrong.

The only positive in all of this is the schadenfreude we can all delight and share in, as we point and laugh when it's announced that the Class Order Hall for hunters is in Sunken Temple. Because it was emptied by "heroes" long ago, and is in the Swamp of Sorrows, which is full of dangerous animals to be tamed as pets, and the swamps are excellent training grounds for young hunters. It makes sense, if you think about it. Don't get mad, just wait and see before criticising. You might be amazed at what Blizzard can do in that temple..

A hearthstone is one way.

Dalaran hasn't been over Northrend for years, lorewise it has been moving south. And yes, mages could open portals, but it's a lot easier to have a city nearby than to keep up portals to constantly have to jump back and forth and transport supplies and troops through. Also, it's very easy to attack and defend a single permanent portal. See the Dark portal and how many times we've immediately turned back invasions and then pushed through into the enemy's territory. It's much harder to attack an entire city than a single gate.

It is very much about making sense, and I've said from the very beginning that wanting Ravenholdt to have Ravenholdt is fine. I agree that there isn't a location that has more to do with the rogue class than Ravenholdt, except maybe Deadmines. But it's very much not the choice that actually makes sense beyond fond memories and nostalgia, because there is literally absolutely nothing about Ravenholdt that relates it to the current fight or the order of rogues that you are making. It was a manor controlled by a neutral faction of humans fighting against a different hostile faction of humans. They didn't care about saving the world, they didn't care about any conflict the Horde/Alliance have ever been a part of, they were out dealing with their own tiny struggle in Hillsbrad. There's a reason Wrathion doesn't set up a base at Ravenholdt after Fangs of the Father, it's because there is absolutely nothing there, and the only reason to have a base there is because your operations are taking place in Hillsbrad (which is why the faction is there in the first place).

That's really the glaring flaw in the Ravenholdt argument to begin with. People keep acting like you're going to step up and create a new Ravenholdt, but Ravenholdt itself was simply a small faction fighting against the Syndicate with well trained rogues. It would make about as much sense to revive the Defias to fight the legion. Sure, you could call yourself the Defias, and wear the masks and use Deadmines as your base, but is there any point to calling yourself the Defias and using that location if your fight has nothing to do with combating the oppressive reign of Stormwind (which is nearby)? Is there any point to calling yourself Ravenholdt and using the manor if your fight has nothing to do with stopping the Syndicate (which is nearby)? Because that's literally all there is to Ravenholdt, they are rogues and they fight the Syndicate, when you take away the Syndicate part... you're not really Ravenholdt anymore, you are just a group of rogues in a really random location far away from where you're actually needed.

But honestly, given the posts you've made in the thread, you seem to be a lot more interested in complaining about Blizzard Devs than actually talking about the location of the Class Order Hall.

[Pathal]

They didn't care about saving the world, they didn't care about any conflict the Horde/Alliance have ever been a part of, they were out dealing with their own tiny struggle in Hillsbrad.

For rogues, the only code is the contract, and their honor is purchased in gold. Free from the constraints of a conscience, these mercenaries rely on brutal and efficient tactics.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/class/rogue

Really, Rogues and Ravenholdt are the same thing. If you claim Ravenholdt doesn't care then Rogues don't either. So why would rogues get a class hall at all then?

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There's a reason Wrathion doesn't set up a base at Ravenholdt after Fangs of the Father, it's because there is absolutely nothing there, and the only reason to have a base there is because your operations are taking place in Hillsbrad (which is why the faction is there in the first place).

This actually grossly simplifies Wrathion as a character. Wrathion hates the Black Dragonflight before him, and Ravenholdt was largely taken over by the Black Dragonflight at some point in time (perhaps it was around the time Cata started, maybe earlier, no one knows). Unless there was some sort of power or resource Wrathion could harness from the area, there's literally every subjective and emotional reason to leave Ravenholdt for Wrathion. Locality is not even a factor, it's that this was the place where he was locked in the basement, surrounded by some of the beings he hated most. He was manipulated and tortured by the Black Dragonflight as well as the Red. It doesn't make sense for him to stay there because it's in his own character design to do so.

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People keep acting like you're going to step up and create a new Ravenholdt, but Ravenholdt itself was simply a small faction fighting against the Syndicate with well trained rogues. It would make about as much sense to revive the Defias to fight the legion.

Is there any point to calling yourself Ravenholdt and using the manor if your fight has nothing to do with stopping the Syndicate (which is nearby)? Because that's literally all there is to Ravenholdt, they are rogues and they fight the Syndicate, when you take away the Syndicate part... you're not really Ravenholdt anymore, you are just a group of rogues in a really random location far away from where you're actually needed.

Ravenholdt and Syndicate were actually two competing groups of assassins and thieves. Syndicate was formed out of the remnants of the nobles of Lordaeron, while Ravenholdt was a long standing group of master assassin's for hire. The Syndicate wants control of the region, and to use slavery to their advantage (both of which they lost in the second war). Ravenholdt views them more as a nuisance, a competing body that makes it harder for them to function. Their dispute is largely business related.

Ravenholdt is also home to the Assassin's League, which is a sort of inner circle of master assassins. I'm pretty sure that sounds like the perfect atmosphere for a rogue class hall.

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Other things of note:
-> Garona has ties to Ravenholdt and the Assassin's League.
-> We don't know everyone from Ravenholdt that died during the Fangs questline, only a few of the names.
-> Lord Jorach Ravenholdt was unaccounted for during the Fangs questline, and could be dead, fled, or left the manor like Garona.
-> I think most of the conflict around this is a combination of Ravenholdt having all the right parts of what a class hall sounds like, but sits as a loose end for every perspective. Both common class hall suggestions are completely plausible/practical, but leaving Ravenholdt as a loose end for another expansion seems like a narrative failure to me, and probably many others.

[Hitei]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/class/rogue

Really, Rogues and Ravenholdt are the same thing. If you claim Ravenholdt doesn't care then Rogues don't either. So why would rogues get a class hall at all then?

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This actually grossly simplifies Wrathion as a character. Wrathion hates the Black Dragonflight before him, and Ravenholdt was largely taken over by the Black Dragonflight at some point in time (perhaps it was around the time Cata started, maybe earlier, no one knows). Unless there was some sort of power or resource Wrathion could harness from the area, there's literally every subjective and emotional reason to leave Ravenholdt for Wrathion. Locality is not even a factor, it's that this was the place where he was locked in the basement, surrounded by some of the beings he hated most. He was manipulated and tortured by the Black Dragonflight as well as the Red. It doesn't make sense for him to stay there because it's in his own character design to do so.

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Ravenholdt and Syndicate were actually two competing groups of assassins and thieves. Syndicate was formed out of the remnants of the nobles of Lordaeron, while Ravenholdt was a long standing group of master assassin's for hire. The Syndicate wants control of the region, and to use slavery to their advantage (both of which they lost in the second war). Ravenholdt views them more as a nuisance, a competing body that makes it harder for them to function. Their dispute is largely business related.

Ravenholdt is also home to the Assassin's League, which is a sort of inner circle of master assassins. I'm pretty sure that sounds like the perfect atmosphere for a rogue class hall.

---

Other things of note:
-> Garona has ties to Ravenholdt and the Assassin's League.
-> We don't know everyone from Ravenholdt that died during the Fangs questline, only a few of the names.
-> Lord Jorach Ravenholdt was unaccounted for during the Fangs questline, and could be dead, fled, or left the manor like Garona.
-> I think most of the conflict around this is a combination of Ravenholdt having all the right parts of what a class hall sounds like, but sits as a loose end for every perspective. Both common class hall suggestions are completely plausible/practical, but leaving Ravenholdt as a loose end for another expansion seems like a narrative failure to me, and probably many others.

That was my whole point though. Ravenholdt is made up of rogues, yes, but it is a faction of rogues who's sole concern is Lordaeron, and the defense of its remnants (which is why they fight the syndicate). That is why the manor is where it is, because it is someplace isolated but close to where there are fighting. Player rogues may be motivated by less than noble reasons, but they still have a deep investment (even if it's just financially) in the success of the Alliance/Horde. Ravenholdt does not, because again, as a faction it is all about what is happening in Lordaeron and the surrounding areas.

Also Ravenholdt was not "largely taken over" by the Black Dragonflight. Fahrad alone was a Black Dragon working within Ravenholdt, and he was completely loyal to Wrathion until the fact that Wrathion knew he was part of the flight triggered his corruption. And you are agreeing with me here. There is no sort of power or resource in the area, that is what I keep trying to point out. The Paladin class hall is where it is because it is a holy and sacred place, the shaman hall is where it is planned because it's a primal area of active elements, but there is absolutely nothing about Ravenholdt manor that makes it a good place to set up shop to fight the legion on a completely different continent. Again, Ravenholdt is where it is because it was close to where its operations were taking place, it is only a good location if your group is focusing on that area.

I'm fairly confident Garona's connection to Ravenholdt is not canon. She was there very briefly in the original beta and then removed before the game's release.
It's true that there might be a few people from Ravenholdt still alive, but why does that make using their destroyed base a good idea? If anything it makes more sense for those survivors to leave the area and join us, because the Syndicate are no longer there, and pretty much the entirety of Hillsbrad is now under Forsaken control, which is another massive problem with using Ravenholdt, because why on earth would Alliance rogues go make a safehouse in a well known manor inside enemy territory?

The conflict here is that a lot of people want Ravenholdt because it's Ravenholdt and it is the only place in game that was mainly about rogues and player-related. It doesn't have the right parts of being a class hall (namely it doesn't have a useful location, as I mentioned above when citing the Shaman/Paladin locations). Ravenholdt itself isn't a loose end, it was destroyed and there is no reason for the rogues to return and reform it because Lordaeron is all but controlled by the Forsaken now, and the Syndicate in Hillsbrad was pretty much completely wiped out. Jorach is a loose end, but a single character loose end, the better way to tie him up is to have him come join the player, not have the player remake his now irrelevant faction so that he can join it but not be leading it. I just don't see how Ravenholdt is practical when it's on a different continent, with no real reason to be at that location, in Forsaken territory, destroyed, and has been open to other classes the entirety of the game.

Just as you brought up, this is what describes Rogues.

For rogues, the only code is the contract, and their honor is purchased in gold. Free from the constraints of a conscience, these mercenaries rely on brutal and efficient tactics.

Rogues are supposed to be brutal and efficient, not picking strange, inefficient, potentially dangerous locations just because of sentimental ties to previous groups of assassins and thieves that used that location.

[Eazy]

I think that they have already decided that we're going to be in the Dalaran Sewers. They just don't want to change their planes.

[Artorius]

I think that they have already decided that we're going to be in the Dalaran Sewers. They just don't want to change their planes.

I think they're discussing more on why Blizzard made this decision. Since some find RH an obvious choice.

[Florena]

That was my whole point though. Ravenholdt is made up of rogues, yes, but it is a faction of rogues who's sole concern is Lordaeron, and the defense of its remnants (which is why they fight the syndicate). That is why the manor is where it is, because it is someplace isolated but close to where there are fighting. Player rogues may be motivated by less than noble reasons, but they still have a deep investment (even if it's just financially) in the success of the Alliance/Horde. Ravenholdt does not, because again, as a faction it is all about what is happening in Lordaeron and the surrounding areas.

Also Ravenholdt was not "largely taken over" by the Black Dragonflight. Fahrad alone was a Black Dragon working within Ravenholdt, and he was completely loyal to Wrathion until the fact that Wrathion knew he was part of the flight triggered his corruption. And you are agreeing with me here. There is no sort of power or resource in the area, that is what I keep trying to point out. The Paladin class hall is where it is because it is a holy and sacred place, the shaman hall is where it is planned because it's a primal area of active elements, but there is absolutely nothing about Ravenholdt manor that makes it a good place to set up shop to fight the legion on a completely different continent. Again, Ravenholdt is where it is because it was close to where its operations were taking place, it is only a good location if your group is focusing on that area.

I'm fairly confident Garona's connection to Ravenholdt is not canon. She was there very briefly in the original beta and then removed before the game's release.
It's true that there might be a few people from Ravenholdt still alive, but why does that make using their destroyed base a good idea? If anything it makes more sense for those survivors to leave the area and join us, because the Syndicate are no longer there, and pretty much the entirety of Hillsbrad is now under Forsaken control, which is another massive problem with using Ravenholdt, because why on earth would Alliance rogues go make a safehouse in a well known manor inside enemy territory?

The conflict here is that a lot of people want Ravenholdt because it's Ravenholdt and it is the only place in game that was mainly about rogues and player-related. It doesn't have the right parts of being a class hall (namely it doesn't have a useful location, as I mentioned above when citing the Shaman/Paladin locations). Ravenholdt itself isn't a loose end, it was destroyed and there is no reason for the rogues to return and reform it because Lordaeron is all but controlled by the Forsaken now, and the Syndicate in Hillsbrad was pretty much completely wiped out. Jorach is a loose end, but a single character loose end, the better way to tie him up is to have him come join the player, not have the player remake his now irrelevant faction so that he can join it but not be leading it. I just don't see how Ravenholdt is practical when it's on a different continent, with no real reason to be at that location, in Forsaken territory, destroyed, and has been open to other classes the entirety of the game.

Just as you brought up, this is what describes Rogues.



Rogues are supposed to be brutal and efficient, not picking strange, inefficient, potentially dangerous locations just because of sentimental ties to previous groups of assassins and thieves that used that location.

This is a large reason why I like the class, and would rather see the rogues convene somewhere efficient and pragmatic rather than in RAvenholdt simply out of nostalgia, though I can understand why others want it.

[Pathal]

1) Show me in the lore where Ravenholdt was created to safeguard the Lordaeron. If Ravenholdt was to protect Lordaeron then why would Horde be welcomed there?
2) Ravenholdt was taken over, the entire compound was focused on keeping you away to progress the Black Dragonflight's agenda due to Fahrad's ruleset. Fahrad was running Ravenholdt to accomplish Black Dragonflight goals, therefore it was a Black Dragonflight run location. It's not until you get to Wrathion that things change, because Fahrad's plans had to change.
3) Fahrad was not loyal to Wrathion, he was loyal to the Black Dragonflight. Fahrad hears voices the entire time the questline is happening, the lashing out is just Wrathion bringing the corruption to the forefront.
4) Garona is canon. She was added back to Ravenholdt during Cata. I'm pretty sure she's gone again, but I can't check right now.
5) Ravenholdt was attacked because the Black Dragonflight and Wrathion were there, not because it was a rogue hideout. As far as the Red Dragonflight or anyone else in azeroth could know, it's just a mansion in the hillside. Well, the Syndicate probably know at this point, but it's not exactly waving a flag in the air saying "HEY ROGUES COME CHECK US OUT, WE DO COOL THIEVY THINGS".
6) Syndicate was in Alterac and Arathi, they ignored much of Hillsbrad. They do exist but not at what they once were.
7) If Ravenholdt is a bad place because it's in the middle of nowhere and can be attacked from the air, then Light's Hope Chapel is a terrible idea because it's even farther in the middle of nowhere and can also be attacked from the air. Paladin's have several neutral holy grounds they could use or take over. LHC is used because it has meaningful backstory. Kinda like Ravenholdt.
8) There are several loose ends. What happens to Jorach's fortune? Where did Jorach's fortune come from? What happens to the Assassin's League? Garona? What was happening in the Assassin's League? Where did Jorach go? Did Jorach know about Fahrad? Is Jorach even alive? Has anything been stolen from Ravenholdt's ruins? Did anything/anyone move into the ruins? Did the Red Dragonflight ever return to the lost battlefield? Who else was in the Assassin's League? What were the requirements to join the Assassin's League? Did they flee from Fahrad's control, or were they a part of the Black Dragonflight's agenda? Were any of the other Assassin's League memebers Black Dragons? What did Garona have to do with the Assassin's League? Was Valeera ever involved? Who has the Assassin's League ever killed? Who did they usually take contracts from? What was their governing structure? How did they receive contracts? Is Jorach the leader of the Assassin's League, a member, or just a host to it? Which came first, Ravenholdt or Assassin's League?

I could go on. I really could. Jorach and the Assassin's League are two incredibly reclusive and enigmatic entities in warcraft with a lot of questions. These are just the basic ones. For them to just disappear, is a -massive- loose end for Rogue lore.

For rogues, the only code is the contract, and their honor is purchased in gold.

Please, reread this quote. It's saying rogues are blackguards, contract killers. Not that they have some sort of moral compass to save the world. Rogues are designed around their own self interests. If there's resources to be reclaimed from the ruins of Ravenholdt, then there's a lot of reasons to go back there.

I'm going to finish by quoting myself from earlier.

Both common class hall suggestions are completely plausible/practical, but leaving Ravenholdt as a loose end for another expansion seems like a narrative failure to me, and probably many others.

It's totally reasonable to put rogues in the Dalaran underbelly. It raises a lot of narrative problems that I think are stupid, but it might work. However abandoning Ravenholdt all together isn't just a bad idea, it's a fucking terrible one. Ravenholdt should be the basis of rogue class halls.

[Hitei]

1) Show me in the lore where Ravenholdt was created to safeguard the Lordaeron. If Ravenholdt was to protect Lordaeron then why would Horde be welcomed there?
2) Ravenholdt was taken over, the entire compound was focused on keeping you away to progress the Black Dragonflight's agenda due to Fahrad's ruleset. Fahrad was running Ravenholdt to accomplish Black Dragonflight goals, therefore it was a Black Dragonflight run location. It's not until you get to Wrathion that things change, because Fahrad's plans had to change.
3) Fahrad was not loyal to Wrathion, he was loyal to the Black Dragonflight. Fahrad hears voices the entire time the questline is happening, the lashing out is just Wrathion bringing the corruption to the forefront.
4) Garona is canon. She was added back to Ravenholdt during Cata. I'm pretty sure she's gone again, but I can't check right now.
5) Ravenholdt was attacked because the Black Dragonflight and Wrathion were there, not because it was a rogue hideout. As far as the Red Dragonflight or anyone else in azeroth could know, it's just a mansion in the hillside. Well, the Syndicate probably know at this point, but it's not exactly waving a flag in the air saying "HEY ROGUES COME CHECK US OUT, WE DO COOL THIEVY THINGS".
6) Syndicate was in Alterac and Arathi, they ignored much of Hillsbrad. They do exist but not at what they once were.
7) If Ravenholdt is a bad place because it's in the middle of nowhere and can be attacked from the air, then Light's Hope Chapel is a terrible idea because it's even farther in the middle of nowhere and can also be attacked from the air. Paladin's have several neutral holy grounds they could use or take over. LHC is used because it has meaningful backstory. Kinda like Ravenholdt.
8) There are several loose ends. What happens to Jorach's fortune? Where did Jorach's fortune come from? What happens to the Assassin's League? Garona? What was happening in the Assassin's League? Where did Jorach go? Did Jorach know about Fahrad? Is Jorach even alive? Has anything been stolen from Ravenholdt's ruins? Did anything/anyone move into the ruins? Did the Red Dragonflight ever return to the lost battlefield? Who else was in the Assassin's League? What were the requirements to join the Assassin's League? Did they flee from Fahrad's control, or were they a part of the Black Dragonflight's agenda? Were any of the other Assassin's League memebers Black Dragons? What did Garona have to do with the Assassin's League? Was Valeera ever involved? Who has the Assassin's League ever killed? Who did they usually take contracts from? What was their governing structure? How did they receive contracts? Is Jorach the leader of the Assassin's League, a member, or just a host to it? Which came first, Ravenholdt or Assassin's League?

I could go on. I really could. Jorach and the Assassin's League are two incredibly reclusive and enigmatic entities in warcraft with a lot of questions. These are just the basic ones. For them to just disappear, is a -massive- loose end for Rogue lore.

The fact that Ravenholdt is fighting the syndicate is self evident of their alignment. There is very little profit to be found in slaying a bunch of fallen nobles and their ragged band of thieves and bandits. There are a hundred other places those rogues could go where there is a larger amount of resources and more gold flowing than an area that's only notable features are farms, a small town and a half-destroyed fortress. There is no reason to be sitting their entrenched in combat with the Syndicate for years beyond wanting the encroaching Arathi nobles out of Lordaeron's territory.

You are assuming a massive amount about Fahrad and Wrathion's presence. Fahrad is very clearly loyal to Wrathion and not the Black Dragonflight, or he wouldn't have spent the entire quest line helping you and Wrathion kill off the rest of the Black Dragonflight AND DEATHWING. Yes, the voices were always there, but he had them suppressed and non-harmful until Wrathion's confrontation drew them out and made them forcibly take control.

Unless you have a source for Garona, I think you are mistaken. She was removed from beta and added back into the game during Cataclysm, but not in Ravenholdt, because she was busy in Twilight Highlands pursuing Cho'gall. She is also, besides not being canon Ravenholdt, a loose end completely unrelated to Ravenholdt and the Ravenholdt location, because she is off doing her own crap with hunting down any remants of the Twilight's Hammer and whatever god awful Me'dan is up to. Her missing is not a reason why Ravenholdt is a good location.

Light's Hope is one of the strongest holy places on Azeroth, and there are no known significant holy places on the Broken Isles. Yes, there are other locations that could have been chosen, but it doesn't change the fact that there is a reason to be there. It is a font of holy energy. There is no reason to be at Ravenholdt, because it doesn't provide rogues with any advantage whatsoever, it isn't a significant location to theieves or assassins, it is a regular building in a small valley. Even if you assume Jorach's fortune is under the manor, that's still not a reason to build an entire base there, it's a reason to dig up the fortune, take it, and go make a base someplace that is actually advantageous.

There are loose ends in Jorach and the Assassin's League of Lordaeron. Again, you're talking about something that has nothing to do with player rogues or the current conflict. Who was in the Assassin's League and what targets they've had isn't a loose end, it's just background detail that wasn't filled in. You don't know ever member of the defias or every person they killed, that doesn't make the Defias a loose end.

I just don't see any intelligent rogue saying "Hey, we need an order of rogues to help take down the legion more efficently, where should we be Headquartered? Oh, I know, No one knows what happened to Jorach Ravenholdt or who else was part of the Assassin's league, why don't we go use his old house, hundreds of miles away, completely lacking in resources, and inside Forsaken territory, as a base to fight the Legion?"

Please, reread this quote. It's saying rogues are blackguards, contract killers. Not that they have some sort of moral compass to save the world. Rogues are designed around their own self interests. If there's resources to be reclaimed from the ruins of Ravenholdt, then there's a lot of reasons to go back there.

Yes. I agree, did you not read my post?

Player rogues may be motivated by less than noble reasons, but they still have a deep investment (even if it's just financially) in the success of the Alliance/Horde.

Rogues care about their own interest, which for player rogues is making money by working for the Horde and Alliance. Logical rogues shouldn't have any interest in getting lost in fond memories and wanting to revive a nearly dead faction unrelated to their current objectives. Yes, if there is a fortune to be reclaimed in the ruins of Ravenholdt, that is a reason to go back--to go back and take that fortune and go someplace better. Not to go back and build a base there. When you find a briefcase full of money on the beach, do you build a tent around it and sleep there, or do you take the briefcase home?

It's totally reasonable to put rogues in the Dalaran underbelly. It raises a lot of narrative problems that I think are stupid, but it might work. However abandoning Ravenholdt all together isn't just a bad idea, it's a fucking terrible one. Ravenholdt should be the basis of rogue class halls.

Narrative problems like what?

[thottstation]

"You foolish rogues who JUST DON'T GET IT. Ravenholdt manor doesn't make sense because it's a secluded lodge out in the peaks of Hillsbrad, which is vulnerable to air attacks. Can't you see it makes no sense?"

MMOGames: Can you reveal where the Hunter’s Class hall will be located?

Ion Hazzikostas: I believe it is in the peaks of the zone High Mountain. It’s because they have a hunters lodge up there.

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why don't we go use his old house, hundreds of miles away, completely lacking in resources, and inside Forsaken territory, as a base to fight the Legion?"

And druids are using Moonglade because...?

[Hitei]

"You foolish rogues who JUST DON'T GET IT. Ravenholdt manor doesn't make sense because it's a secluded lodge out in the peaks of Hillsbrad, which is vulnerable to air attacks. Can't you see it makes no sense?"



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And druids are using Moonglade because...?

Yes, Hunters are in a location near the battle we are fighting, instead of out in Grizzly hills, STV or another location that puts them unbelievably far away. See how rather than say, putting Hunters in Un'goro, just because they had a vanilla quest line involving Un'goro, they are in a location that makes sense for the current story?

Druids (if they actually are in moonglade) are there because like Shamans, Paladins, Priests, Warlocks, etc, they are a class that draws on energy. They are in Moonglade because it is a powerful location for nature/druidic magic, with a strong connection for druids to draw from.

Hunters, like Rogues, rely on martial skill, training and general techniques to fight, they don't draw on an energy source the way Shamans, Druids, and Paladins do and they don't have easy access portal magic to get to wherever they need to be instantly (like Warlocks and Mages), so where are they...? At a location that is hunter-class-esque (Wild, rugged mountain landscape full of big beasts and tribes of traditional hunter-gather people) and close to the fight (In a zone that is on the Broken Isles), so that they can feel at home and also fight against the legion, which is the whole point of creating the new order.

See how that same logic was applied to rogues?

A place that is rogue-class-esque (The seedy underbelly of a city, out of sight, where shady characters hang out selling poisons, and not quite following the rules) and close to the fight (A city that is on the Broken Isles), so that rogues are in a suitable shadowy/rogue-type environment, and close to the front lines of the fight against the legion, which is the whole point of creating the new order.

[Deleted]

Even if you say "well we can just rebuild it", the question is "WHO is going to rebuild it?" It isn't just a matter of "the house was burned down", Ravenholdt and its people are gone. Most of them were killed either by Wrathion or red dragons and the few that remained are Wrathion's private guard, wherever he went.

Rogues aren't carpenters and bricklayers, they are mercenaries and assassins so why would they rebuild a burnt down and abandoned old house in the middle of the mountains when they could simply gather elsewhere?

You could ask the stonemasons guild.

[Florena]

You could ask the stonemasons guild.

They were the exception, stonemasons who started off as workers and then turned to thievery etc. And we killed them.