mythic gorefiend - why so hard?

[Dracodraco]

The ring really doesn't make Gorefiend easier though. Your post makes no sense. Yes, once we outgear the piss out of it you can probably knock it out in two feasts, but you're not going to outgear that boss until you've beaten it. Many times. The ring is actively detrimental during the only parts of the fight that are hard. Higher ilevel/more gear ALWAYS helps, but the ring specifically is problematic.

Then again in one of the other threads you call some guy out for saying Gorefiend is more complex than the bosses after him and you said you think Gorefiend is piss easy, so...not sure I truly believe your opinions on the matter here. Gorefiend is one of the bosses with the most individual responsibility in regards to keeping track of LOTS of moving parts that they've ever designed. The number requirements are easy as hell, yet people still wipe to him over and over, because of how dense with mechanics it is and how much you really need to be paying attention to 5 different things at all times.

"many" times?
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done was our fourth kill - the week we pretty much had all our legendary rings (Whaboom is missing one). The previous ones we obviously had no rings and thus couldn't do it. Our average item level was 719.6 - if you look at the most recent gorefiend kills, the guilds getting him down nowadays are at about 717-719 item level; the same we did this with. There's absolutely no reason you can't 2 feast it on your first kill if the entire raid has rings. And getting to the gear level is fully doable due to ring upgrades and farm of the first few bosses + caches, as wowprogress shows.

As for the simplicity of the fight, in that thread I boiled it down to five points that I think you'd have any issues disputing -

1: Never hit the boss if adds are up.
2: Hit and slow adds (this is essentially the same as #1, though)
3: Let the assigned people take care of spirits.
4: Prioritise Tank add>Constructs for melee and Essences>Constructs for ranged.
5: Be ready to switch onto a specific spirit if a call is made.

There's nothing more to the fight. It's just heroic with multiple people soaking in the feast phase after that. The reason why people think the fight is so bloody hard and difficult is because of THREE major points:

1: Your dps are retarded. Always. They will be hitting the wrong thing, and it will make the boss far more difficult than it has to be.
2: Your dps does not listen and break out people when a call is made. See #1; They are retarded.
3: Your healers do not prioritise healing correct inside so high essences come out and overwhelm.

Those are literally the only 3 ways you can wipe. You say there's a ton of moving parts and lots of individual responsibility, but honestly, no, it's not. The only people with any kind of responsibility in that fight are the 2x dps that are breaking spirits out. For everyone else, the boss is a fucking snoozefest of "keep hitting adds till feast, then move out when my name is next on angry assignment". There are no responsibilities for a hunter except "do lots of damage to adds"; Unless you think that the root/touches are personal responsibility, in which case literally every single fight ever has a ton of that shit.

This is not to say that my guild's dps aren't retarded, by the way - we have our fair amount of wipes rekilling it. But that is because of people doing the encounter wrong; Not because of its immense complexity. Put it this way; If you left the phantasmal residence up and killed it last on Iskar and got multiple sets of dark bindings, suddenly you'd feel that fight would be extremely complex aswell as you'd have to juggle the chakram, winds, not run over each other with chains, throw ball back and forth etc... But it'd be extremely complex because you're doing it wrong. Gorefiend is no different.

[Archmage Alodi]

It will be nerfed in a few weeks don't worry

[Tojara]

That's bullshit, though. The same reason the ring overpowers many other encounters is the same for Gorefiend - removing a third of the encounter (thus reducing the requirement from succeeding 2x in a row, down from 3x, significantly increasing your chance unless you've got multiple kills and can do it in your sleep) is a huge bonus. Ring trivialises Fel Lord for the exact same reason it trivialises Gorefiend - the dps from it removes the long, hard part of the fight at the end (fel lord barely gets to use seeds sub-30% now, first kills had 2-3 seeds in last phase). Still gotta go through the motions and manage the spawning of mountains, heavy handed phase etc though.

Not really bullshit. I can only cite my own logs, but we only had 2-3 wipes in the third P1 when we cleanly got through the second feast. Most people are on track to kill the boss once they do one full clean transition, as it's just repeating the same thing over and over again. I know several of my friends guilds who had progressed on the boss who had very few wipes during the third phase one.

The boss is an encounter where once you cleanly do P1 you will kill the boss. Removing a feast and phase one, while obviously making it easier, doesn't make the encounter drastically easier. The bulk of the encounter is still doing P1 correctly, and doing that requires breaking people out in a timely manner, the ring really doesn't aid you in doing that.

To state that it effects Gorefiend the same as Fel Lord is pretty laughable. With the ring, you can effectively remove the only really hard part of the encounter, being the seeds in the last phase. Our first kill was done basically this way, as were a lot of kills this week and a couple weeks ago. Removing the entire difficulty of the last phase isn't really comparable to removing maybe one feast phase and maybe the third phase one on Gorefiend (which isn't even an argument for guilds currently progressing on it, as it's probably not likely most new kills are going to two feast it just yet on their first kill). It's an encounter that repeats the same thing three times, and as long as you weren't completely retarded with doomwells, nothing is necessarily harder about the third phase one.

It's really not the same and I'm not getting the logic. The ring doesn't make the hard part of the fight easier, as it does with other encounters in the instance. Removing seeds post enrage on Fel Lord makes a giant difference, as does removing the new add on Iskar. Removing potentially one feast phase, and/or part of a third P1 doesn't make the boss face roll. It's not the same as removing the bad timing of edict/infernal tempest in P1, or making P2 just way faster on Tyrant either.

[CptAwesome]

"many" times?
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done was our fourth kill - the week we pretty much had all our legendary rings (Whaboom is missing one). The previous ones we obviously had no rings and thus couldn't do it. Our average item level was 719.6 - if you look at the most recent gorefiend kills, the guilds getting him down nowadays are at about 717-719 item level; the same we did this with. There's absolutely no reason you can't 2 feast it on your first kill if the entire raid has rings. And getting to the gear level is fully doable due to ring upgrades and farm of the first few bosses + caches, as wowprogress shows.

If you've killed Gorefiend four times already then your dpsers are not a very good benchmark for everyone else. If you look at the speed rankings, only 52 guilds are posting kills under 8 minutes. You really are living in a little bubble with players who make the content far easier for you than for the majority of guilds.

[sdracklryeg]

We don't touch Xhul'horac or Tyrant until this weekend, but I can certainly imagine aspects of these encounters being overpowered by gear and the ring. Not saying they are 'easier' than Gorefiend, but that these bosses at this point are approached a lot differently and a lot easier compared to what they were, where Gorefiend's difficulty hasn't been drastically lowered with the legendary ring. For example on Tyrant, I don't think guilds see the really bad combo at the end of P1 anymore where you get edict and infernal tempest at roughly the same time anymore, and the tank ring/DPS ring makes P2 a lot faster and far more manageable.

Tyrant gets easier with gear (Although If you 4 heal it, which I assume most guilds did, you skip that combo in P1 regardless), P2 also goes faster and your tanks get one shot less but the timings of Edict for phase 3 can cause a lot of weird issues with DPS. On our second kill of Tyrant we spent like 3 hours wiping because we'd get to phase 3 and we'd be at a different position when the edict came through (As its timer is completely separate from her switching phases). An Edict hitting the raid in phase 3 outside of the first 5 seconds of P3 is an instant wipe (Even then you'll probably wipe unless your healers are gods and everyone pops personals) so you either need Warlock gates or Priests ready to lifegrip people out (And die if they're a Healer or use dispersion if they're shadow) of the raid as soon as It spawns and If the timing is altered by how fast your DPS is, then you can't always rely on the Warlock Gates.

Xhul won't get easier much easier with gear, it's entirely mechanics based, sure Tanks won't get dicked as hard, adds will die quicker and in general the fight will go faster (It already goes a shit ton faster than the first kills did) but you'll still be stuck there for 100+ wipes If people don't do the fight properly. Gear won't stop people getting stepped on by Voidfiends, won't stop poor placement of fires, won't stop people getting one shot by Empowered Fel chains, won't solve the issue of Blackhole soaks and most importantly won't stop you getting one shot by a Shadowfel explosions because you get a debuff increasing your damage by 100% after you take one

[Deleted]

If you've killed Gorefiend four times already then your dpsers are not a very good benchmark for everyone else. If you look at the speed rankings, only 52 guilds are posting kills under 8 minutes. You really are living in a little bubble with players who make the content far easier for you than for the majority of guilds.

Yep, this. It has to possible for players of a lower calibre and it will get nerfed. Not a question of if, but a question of when.

We had it to 16% twice last reset and as soon as we had the people assigned to doing souls correct then it suddenly stopped feeling like the unbreakable brick wall. Our first 60 pulls we saw 2 feast phases. In our last 30 we saw at least 10 feast phases. Just 100% about co-ordination and players listening to instruction.

[dashmudtz]

Edit: now i remember why i stopped posting in forums.

[shanattah]

Tyrant gets easier with gear (Although If you 4 heal it, which I assume most guilds did, you skip that combo in P1 regardless), P2 also goes faster and your tanks get one shot less but the timings of Edict for phase 3 can cause a lot of weird issues with DPS. On our second kill of Tyrant we spent like 3 hours wiping because we'd get to phase 3 and we'd be at a different position when the edict came through (As its timer is completely separate from her switching phases). An Edict hitting the raid in phase 3 outside of the first 5 seconds of P3 is an instant wipe (Even then you'll probably wipe unless your healers are gods and everyone pops personals) so you either need Warlock gates or Priests ready to lifegrip people out (And die if they're a Healer or use dispersion if they're shadow) of the raid as soon as It spawns and If the timing is altered by how fast your DPS is, then you can't always rely on the Warlock Gates.

Xhul won't get easier much easier with gear, it's entirely mechanics based, sure Tanks won't get dicked as hard, adds will die quicker and in general the fight will go faster (It already goes a shit ton faster than the first kills did) but you'll still be stuck there for 100+ wipes If people don't do the fight properly. Gear won't stop people getting stepped on by Voidfiends, won't stop poor placement of fires, won't stop people getting one shot by Empowered Fel chains, won't solve the issue of Blackhole soaks and most importantly won't stop you getting one shot by a Shadowfel explosions because you get a debuff increasing your damage by 100% after you take one

gear will help with empowered chains and blackhole soaks (the ones that they need/want a shield to survive), it'll help with surviving edict as well but I agree with the timing, week 1 to 2 can differ alot and it can be alot harder.

I think Gorefiend is a good gatekeeper boss, he's a quest boss to skip to the next part, now that you can rez ppl that died inside he should be alot easier than before, the only thing I'd nerf on it is touch of doom damage

[Pennoyer]

The people so vehemently disagreeing with Draco is strange at best. Everything he has sad is completely true, and you guys are being completely disingenuous. Claiming that he has a skewed perception because his raid performs better than others in absolutely no way makes his statements incorrect, if anything it only emphasizes how correct his points really are. New guilds are absolutely capable of getting kills before feast 3 - We have never had a kill that got to feast 3, including our first, and it is because of rings. It doesn't matter if round 3 of phase 1 is the exact same, longer duration means more opportunities for mistakes. In all reality, the worse the players, the more likely it will be that they kill it during/shortly after feast 2, simply because they have less opportunities to screw up.

With the exception of Tojara whose claims were at least somewhat reasonable, you guys are making absolutely no sense with your logical fallacies.

It's painfully obvious that you don't understand the meaning of the terms you're attempting to use (e.g., logical fallacy, disingenuous, etc.).

Anyway, here are the recorded speed rankings for Gorefiend on WCL: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...3&metric=speed

Merely killing it before Feast 3 doesn't really mean much either--you're still having to do the more difficult phase a third time in its entirety and with the least amount of space (and the third Feast is even easier, since almost everyone gets to stand still). Killing it shortly after Feast 2 is necessary to realize the benefits of being able to push better DPS on this boss. Feast 2 ends around 6 minutes in this encounter and Feast 3 begins around 8 minutes.

The number of guilds killing it in less than 7 minutes on WCL is less than 30. Only about 50 or so bypass the third Feast (which, again, is meaningless for those guilds pushing close to 8 minutes, since they still had to do the hardest part of the fight). I suppose there are still some guilds that hide logs such that we don't have a complete picture, but I wonder how many that would actually add to this number.

[kamuimac]

If you've killed Gorefiend four times already then your dpsers are not a very good benchmark for everyone else. If you look at the speed rankings, only 52 guilds are posting kills under 8 minutes. You really are living in a little bubble with players who make the content far easier for you than for the majority of guilds.

that mydear sir is a case for very very many mythic guilds - due to how high they set recruiting requirments and due to lv of players they accumulated over years they no longer rememeber what average player is doin in game - and blizzard tunes all encounters towards them - screwing most of population over because its those elite that are doin encounters tuning not average joe raider. but its also not connected to this thread

[Kraineth]

that mydear sir is a case for very very many mythic guilds - due to how high they set recruiting requirments and due to lv of players they accumulated over years they no longer rememeber what average player is doin in game - and blizzard tunes all encounters towards them - screwing most of population over because its those elite that are doin encounters tuning not average joe raider. but its also not connected to this thread

Mythic isn't for your average raider

[Deleted]

Don't get what's so hard either, everytime we wipe on farm I think "what moron put that doomwell there?" or "what moron nuked that soul down in 4 seconds?" or "why are none of these morons killing this tank add so I don't have to sit at 10+ stacks?

Quite convinced that there's simply to many targets up at the same time for drooling DPS to handle.

[Deleted]

I really hope blizzard doesn't nerf this boss. But knowing them, this boss will probably be nerfed hard.

It's really a boss that test if your raiders are truly mythic raiders. The boss isn't complicated or overtuned or overly difficult. It's a simple fight on paper, but it's a boss that separates the average skilled + players from the bad ones.

[Deleted]

Be losers like my alt guild and find someone to give you a portal to the upper bosses my alt guild is 7/13m without a gorefiend kill lol soon to be 8 or 9/13 without a gorefiend kill.

You misspelled winners. You think this is a game? Our world firsts have been banned in the past for abuse of mechanics, you think they don't do it again and again without anyone knowing?


PS. It's on topic because abuse of mechanics = cheesing it, making it easy, "opening a portal to bypass gorefiend".

[galaxyquest]

Not being able to cleave, at least as a Hunter, is absolute hell for the initial pulls .. even cleave trinkets can't be equipped (mostly magic/melee wearers it seems).

Finally being able to use Chimaera Shot normally again on Soc/Iskar was a breath of relief.

I find it sad that people are searching for "6/13M only", especially if they themselves haven't downed Gorefiend.

[Keosen]

Gorefiend isn't hard individually, but it does require every individual to play nearly perfectly or it's a wipe.
It has the kind of mechanics we saw on Blast Furnace and Blackhand where one fail on any mechanic can easily wipe the entire raid, but as the 6th boss.

And that's exactly what hard means.
What do you expect to tag a boss as hard? 100 mechanics that noone will remember what they do and how to handle them?

[Yuna]

If you have not killed Gorefiend yet or struggle on rekills:

#1 get ConsGorefiend addon
#2 let someone call out people with red bars (we had 2 dks + 1 hunter/warlock for finishing off)
#3 safe dps and hps cooldowns for feasts
#4 realize it´s a control fight with essence>construct>spirit>boss ( /tar makro for gorebound essence is good)
#5 make sure everyone clears their debuff during feast

(optional: we send one additional dps down with the tank to speed up the tank add / kill all the constructs)

[Deleted]

Not being able to cleave, at least as a Hunter, is absolute hell for the initial pulls .. even cleave trinkets can't be equipped (mostly magic/melee wearers it seems).

Finally being able to use Chimaera Shot normally again on Soc/Iskar was a breath of relief.

This.
I hate this boss, but we finally got it down after 147 pulls (about 20 of these were resets or accidental body pulls). The same evening after killing Gorefiend we went for Iskar and got it with 15 pulls. The diffrence in difficulty is HUGE, imo Gorefiend is too hard for 6th boss in the instance.

[Dracodraco]

Honestly, they would have done well to place Gorefiend in front of Mannoroth instead; thus the order would have been:

HFA - Reaver - Kormrok - Council - Killrogg (slightly easier than council but still in the same bracket) - Iskar - Socrethar - Fel Lord - Tyrant - Xhul - Gorefiend - Mannoroth - Archi.
Generally seems like it'd hit "the spot" in terms of ramp up difficulty.
Although lets be fair, lots of questionable choises made this tier (why are the glove token on Socrethar instead of Tyrant...?)

[Deleted]

If you have not killed Gorefiend yet or struggle on rekills:

#1 get ConsGorefiend addon
#2 let someone call out people with red bars (we had 2 dks + 1 hunter/warlock for finishing off)
#3 safe dps and hps cooldowns for feasts
#4 realize it´s a control fight with essence>construct>spirit>boss ( /tar makro for gorebound essence is good)
#5 make sure everyone clears their debuff during feast

(optional: we send one additional dps down with the tank to speed up the tank add / kill all the constructs)

Cons, unless there was an update last night, is out of sync by over 5 seconds. Our healers were asking us to get them out at 5 which is fine, but they would then randomly drop off at 6 seconds and the cast would finish at 6 seconds on the tracker.

We switched to using a WA instead, but your other comments are spot on.