Everything prior to level 90 sucks balls?

[Tomana]

No. They were grindy and not user-friendly. That's why they never attracted a large base. It had nothing to do with difficulty.

Well, please explain to all the "we want to go back to vanilla" people that grindiness does not equal difficulty, then. Because they are clearly not getting the message.

[smokii]

tbh i agree with the OP and most of the sentiments here that there should be more challenging levelling content with higher XP reward.

dungeons are a good focus point for that - a lot of the reason they were nerfed into oblivion was to balance them for new player groups without heirlooms, but i think the chances of running into a LFD without heirlooms is unlikely these days.

on top of that, my 2 nephews started playing the start edition the other day, it's almost embarrasing to watch, as i'd want them to enjoy the same experience i had when playing the game but it's just nothing like it any more. even in their starter edition no heirloom quest rewards only gear, they're nowhere near death unless they accidentally pull 10+ mobs of higher level.

tbh, this just promotes the purchase of a level 90 boost, which is kinda pointless when there's 90 levels of content to explore to get the WoW experience, which feels lacklustre.

the cataclysm was catastrophic to vanilla content, remake the world for flying - absolutely, it's what everybody asked for. re-design the entire quest series from 1-60, erm, no thanks. i'd prefer it as it was. in fact, i think a lot of people preferred it as it was.

i'm kinda glad i have 11 toons at 90+ but fuck me, levelling my monk at launch of MoP was the most painful, souless levelling experience i have had in WoW. even with all the fancy new questlines and story (some of which is enjoyable) the early days of WoW have lost their challenge and their charm. even without heirlooms you can easily outlevel a zone before you've finished the story, 1-60 is just questing on rails now and utterly dissapointing.

tbh, i wish they'd rolled out the zone changes like dustwallow marsh, patch by patch, rather than launching an embarassing expansion like they did. 75% of cataclysms development went towards the 1-60 revamp which went down like a lead balloon and pretty much fucked the franchise, it's been downhill ever since.

[Akka]

What does this have to do with anything? Guy complains about the 1-90 leveling being too easy with heirlooms, however new players do not have heirlooms, so the content is tuned to a player who does not have them.

Even in whites the leveling is still piss-easy, Heirlooms accentuate the problem but it's acute enough even without them.
Stop using heirloom as a scarecrow.

[Tomana]

Even in whites the leveling is still piss-easy, Heirlooms accentuate the problem but it's acute enough even without them.
Stop using heirloom as a scarecrow.

The problem is that you can't make the 1-100 leveling have the same pace as 1-60 back in vanilla. It would take several months for a new player to be at max level and experience the end-game content, which is, for the better or for the worse, is designed around being max level.

If anything, I think Blizzard should ditch levels altogether and focus around a different leveling system (perhaps finding spells instead of levels, glyphs or something in that tune).

[Akka]

The problem is that you can't make the 1-100 leveling have the same pace as 1-60 back in vanilla.

Where did I speak about pace ?

If anything, I think Blizzard should ditch levels altogether and focus around a different leveling system (perhaps finding spells instead of levels, glyphs or something in that tune).

This I could get behind, especially as levels never actually represented adequately relative strength.

[Tomana]

Where did I speak about pace ?

If you make harder to kill mobs (unless you bump the XP/mob drastically), it will take longer to get to 100.
Not to mention that back then where the starting zones were harder (in vanilla and part of BC), a significant percentage of players were quitting before level 10. This is not a good business model.

This I could get behind, especially as levels never actually represented adequately relative strength.

Levels are an old concept and die hard.
I could see finding spells and glyphs to improve them through quests being a much better alternative to level advancement, but that's just my opinion. This would allow players to be operational quicker (so what if I didn't find all my ret spells, I can still be a healer). Then again, the amount of noobs in 5-mans would increase even more, but everything has its downsides.

[Krom2040]

If you make harder to kill mobs (unless you bump the XP/mob drastically), it will take longer to get to 100.

It shouldn't take much more than a small exp bump to balance it out. A lot of your time is spent traveling around anyway, rather than just killing mobs. And besides, it's so ridiculously easy now that a lot of times you just kill everything in sight practically instantly and have to spend your time looking for something else to murder.

Not to mention that back then where the starting zones were harder (in vanilla and part of BC), a significant percentage of players were quitting before level 10. This is not a good business model.

Wait, are we talking about the point in time when the game was gaining like 250,000 new subscribers every month rather than hemorrhaging them?

[Tomana]

Wait, are we talking about the point in time when the game was gaining like 250,000 new subscribers every month rather than hemorrhaging them?

Yes, we are talking about that time. Because you can gain 250,000 new subscribers in different ways: you can win 300,000 and lose 50,000, or you can gain 600,000 and lose 350,000. This is what defines what is called the "churn rate". In practice, according to the information released back then, a lot of new players quit before level 10.

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It shouldn't take much more than a small exp bump to balance it out. A lot of your time is spent traveling around anyway, rather than just killing mobs. And besides, it's so ridiculously easy now that a lot of times you just kill everything in sight practically instantly and have to spend your time looking for something else to murder.

Maybe, but I'd rather scrap leveling altogether rather than spending resources to balance out 1-90 for the third time. The exception to that would be the 1-20 zones, because that's what the new players see first.

[Wilderness]

Wait, are we talking about the point in time when the game was gaining like 250,000 new subscribers every month rather than hemorrhaging them?

Do you actually think that there is anything that WoW could have done over the course of its 10+ years where it would still be gaining subscribers at this point in its cycle? I'm not saying they did everything right or couldn't have done many things better, but there's not a chance in hell that a game could gain in popularity for 10 years or even reach its peak and maintain that for 10 years.

[Krom2040]

Yes, we are talking about that time. Because you can gain 250,000 new subscribers in different ways: you can win 300,000 and lose 50,000, or you can gain 600,000 and lose 350,000. This is what defines what is called the "churn rate". In practice, according to the information released back then, a lot of new players quit before level 10.

I assumed it would be obvious that I was specifically suggesting a *net* gain of subscribers. The beginning of the game doesn't have to be painful, but frankly, if people are quitting that soon then it's obviously just not their kind of game and I doubt that has much to do with difficulty. The first ten levels have traditionally been kind of painful for some classes (like hunters, who didn't even have a pet), and that's a design problem that transcends the overall difficulty embedded in the entire leveling process.

Maybe, but I'd rather scrap leveling altogether rather than spending resources to balance out 1-90 for the third time. The exception to that would be the 1-20 zones, because that's what the new players see first.

I suppose that drastic changes to leveling could work, but maybe until somebody actually figures out what those changes would be, they could fix the leveling process in the meantime?

[Blackmist]

The constantly increasing level cap is what is finally going to do WoW in. It scares away new players, and the old ones are slowly trickling away.

The progression systems in this game need a big rethink, and it's going to upset a lot of people if/when they do. It would be such an upheaval that they'll probably can't do it to the existing player base.

[Tomana]

I assumed it would be obvious that I was specifically suggesting a *net* gain of subscribers. The beginning of the game doesn't have to be painful, but frankly, if people are quitting that soon then it's obviously just not their kind of game and I doubt that has much to do with difficulty. The first ten levels have traditionally been kind of painful for some classes (like hunters, who didn't even have a pet), and that's a design problem that transcends the overall difficulty embedded in the entire leveling process.

Maybe, but again, if you only retain 50% (for example) of subscribers while with some adjustments, you could retain 60, that means you're doing something wrong.

I suppose that drastic changes to leveling could work, but maybe until somebody actually figures out what those changes would be, they could fix the leveling process in the meantime?

It would cost us a raid tier (and I'm not even joking).

[Krom2040]

Do you actually think that there is anything that WoW could have done over the course of its 10+ years where it would still be gaining subscribers at this point in its cycle? I'm not saying they did everything right or couldn't have done many things better, but there's not a chance in hell that a game could gain in popularity for 10 years or even reach its peak and maintain that for 10 years.

I doubt it would be possible to gain subs forever, you're correct. But "not gaining subscribers" is pretty hugely different from "losing half your subs in six months".

It seems abundantly clear that WoW has lost its magic with a lot of people. That seems to overwhelmingly be the vibe on forums, and anecdotally I can say that I've seen most of my friends list stop logging on. This is happening in spite of WoW having a better technology platform and higher production values than ever before.

I think people are free to niggle all day long with assumptions that Blizzard obviously knows best and every decision they make must obviously be backed by mountains of data. It's impossible to completely refute that notion. But the magnitude of the trend is enormous, and will ultimately be disastrous if they don't figure out some way of rekindling what drew people to the game in years past.

My personal feeling (and of course everybody has their own personal feelings), is that the game is generally too easy, in practically every regard, but it's particularly bad in the leveling content and the dungeons. I get the impression that the people trying to frame this is a black and white, easy-vs.-hard binary debate where it's a choice between either being unable to lose or Everquest 1.0 just haven't participated in the leveling process lately. It's fun to one-shot monsters *sometimes*, it's not fun to one-shot monsters *every time*. It's not fun to have ten core offensive abilities, five major offensive cooldowns, and three major defensive cooldowns and *never have to use them* because they're all pointless until you get into raiding or challenge modes or PvP.

This idea that players are a bunch of huge whiny babies who will quit the moment they die for the first time is not only a gross exaggeration, but it seems to be patently false since the biggest sub loss to date has only occurred *after* the game was made brain dead easy. There are a staggering number of posts on here that fall along the lines "well *I* don't think it's fun like this, but I assume it must be more fun for all the idiotic mouthbreathers out there who suck at the game". That point of view is dismissive and a little narcissistic.

[Akka]

If you make harder to kill mobs (unless you bump the XP/mob drastically), it will take longer to get to 100.

It's already three times faster to do 1-max level than it was in Vanilla. It's not a problem if it's slowed down a bit.

Not to mention that back then where the starting zones were harder (in vanilla and part of BC), a significant percentage of players were quitting before level 10. This is not a good business model.

Let's be serious, if people stopped to play in the first 10 levels, it certainly wasn't because it was "too difficult". It was already drooling-on-your-keyboard easy, just took a bit more time to kill mobs. The most reasonable reason is more that these people didn't click with the game. Also, twisting the game just to bring in more players who won't fit with it anyway is an even worse business model.

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My personal feeling (and of course everybody has their own personal feelings), is that the game is generally too easy, in practically every regard, but it's particularly bad in the leveling content and the dungeons. I get the impression that the people trying to frame this is a black and white, easy-vs.-hard binary debate where it's a choice between either being unable to lose or Everquest 1.0 just haven't participated in the leveling process lately. It's fun to one-shot monsters *sometimes*, it's not fun to one-shot monsters *every time*. It's not fun to have ten core offensive abilities, five major offensive cooldowns, and three major defensive cooldowns and *never have to use them* because they're all pointless until you get into raiding or challenge modes or PvP.

This idea that players are a bunch of huge whiny babies who will quit the moment they die for the first time is not only a gross exaggeration, but it seems to be patently false since the biggest sub loss to date has only occurred *after* the game was made brain dead easy. There are a staggering number of posts on here that fall along the lines "well *I* don't think it's fun like this, but I assume it must be more fun for all the idiotic mouthbreathers out there who suck at the game". That point of view is dismissive and a little narcissistic.

Too much logic and common sense here. You'll overload brains.

[Apexis]

I don't even bother with going the dungeon route to level. I just pick zones that I have not leveled through in a very long time and quest my way through the content and bypass as much as I can possible do now. All the various expansion content is like a jigsaw puzzle and is a extremely disjointed from one expansion to another. People are alive in one, dead in another, or alive/dead somewhere in between. The lore is a complete mess all over the place. With the way experience is handed out today, like the character is on crack and with all the various buffs one can use to level even faster.

There is no reason to bother to pay attention to what one is doing and the challenge aspect that used to be part of going through the world has been long gone for at least a couple expansions. Only way I die now, is buy pulling more mobs than the class can handle. I usually do this to see just how much the character can handle at a given level and also to test what I have learned through the leveling process on the class. In other word I create my own challenges through content that is simply boring to tears to go through. At least its like doing my own proving grounds out in the world content. I at least take the time to understand what a class is suppose to be doing and what they are capable of doing at various levels throughout the game. This way, I am not a total dumb ass once I get to cap and can at least hold my own when I get there.

I have always hated leveling through dungeon and battleground, because it simply takes to long, not enough people leveling to make it consistent enough to do so and given there are places within content that is just difficult to find a group. Questing and farming is a much faster option, I can get through content so fast now because I know where and when to hit something and I am always doing content at least two to four levels higher than the characters level. I can level in a matter of hours, not days now.

[Tomana]

Let's be serious, if people stopped to play in the first 10 levels, it certainly wasn't because it was "too difficult". It was already drooling-on-your-keyboard easy, just took a bit more time to kill mobs. The most reasonable reason is more that these people didn't click with the game. Also, twisting the game just to bring in more players who won't fit with it anyway is an even worse business model.

Well, I can't speak about all starter zones, but that grotto in the tauren starting zone certainly featured a lot of QQ back in vanilla.
Also, people don't need to "click in", they need to upgrade from trial, which is a bit different.

It's already three times faster to do 1-max level than it was in Vanilla. It's not a problem if it's slowed down a bit.

Define "a bit". If you slow leveling just "a bit", we'll still have morons on forums QQing that "LEVEELIN' IZ 2 EZ BLIZZ BRIGN BAKC VANILA LOLZ!!!§§". Those people are impossible to please until 1-100 takes a 2 months of /played. Maybe they can just go take a hike?

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I doubt it would be possible to gain subs forever, you're correct. But "not gaining subscribers" is pretty hugely different from "losing half your subs in six months".

I don't think everyone on this forum will disagree that WoD is crap. No question about it.

It seems abundantly clear that WoW has lost its magic with a lot of people. That seems to overwhelmingly be the vibe on forums, and anecdotally I can say that I've seen most of my friends list stop logging on. This is happening in spite of WoW having a better technology platform and higher production values than ever before.

Of course it lost its magic, it's phreaking 10 years old. Look up "Commoditization" in a good dictionary.

My personal feeling (and of course everybody has their own personal feelings), is that the game is generally too easy, in practically every regard, but it's particularly bad in the leveling content and the dungeons.

And *my* personal feeling is that this game does not cater enough to its whole playerbase? What did we get in WOD? Well, we got raids (whoopdeedoo) and garrisons and... that's about it. Where the heck is the rest of the content? What does a player do if he doesn't want or can't afford the schedule to raid? LFR? Yay, let's do LFR and then unsub. And then you wonder why the game lost half its subs?

And why is WoW stuck in this "raid or die" model? Well, there are several reasons, the two main being devs being led by EQ neckbeards obsessed with hardcore raids and sinking huge amounts of resources into creating them (and then forcing people into them so they can justify the costs to the guys in Controlling). And the second one is pure laziness because imagining non-raid, open world content that is both fun and re-playable requires serious thinking, while slapping a bunch of abilities on the boss and calling it a day is way simpler.

Incidentally, the second part is failed by a lot of MMORPGs, not just WoW.

[des1235]

I still love leveling 1-85, and I still enjoy running time walking dungeons. YMMV. (I really hate 90-95 leveling though...which you don't seem to mind and I loathe. I paid $60 to level one of my chars from 85 to 90 because i couldn't stand it.)

[xnavanx]

as a balance druid in feral form and a BM hunter my wife and I were able to 2 man deadmines at level 15 full heirloom gear - rings /flex