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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by wordup View Post
    I'm not prepared to continue a discussion with someone who flagrantly ignores what's presented, won't actually provide evidence of any of what you're saying, nor any proof that the evidence to support what I am saying is anything other than accurate. What you have mathed out is excruciatingly basic, if Mastery was equal to Haste (it isn't) then it would be valuable, but Mastery is noticeably worse than Haste, which your calculations absolutely do not take into account.

    Also, stop trying to drag this back to PvP, I have no interest in that whatsoever, I have made it abundantly clear I am not interested in it nor have any intention of answering any questions from that perspective. It's also entirely irrelevant to PvE discussion; instead of trying to drag my character through the mud in an attempt to make me submit to your opinion (mathing out a value of an enchant then slapping on "but in this scenario it has to be worse!" does nothing) without any fact or reason (I have never, in my life this expansion, seen double Bleeding Hollow outperform someone using Warsong provided equal skill/gear; nor have I found it outperform when I actually have tried it myself) but just blind waving numbers around that prove nothing at all.
    You can't ignore PvP, the main activity that most players engage in at max level, because it highlights the gaping flaws in your claim that warsong is a good choice of enchants for enhancement.

    Opinions exist when there is no conclusive basis to settle a disagreement. In this case, math clearly shows you why you're wrong...and I've already said a few posts back that you are more than welcome to continue maintaining your incorrect opinion on this matter, and under-performing as an enhance shaman because of this...but this thread is not about you and your opinion, it's about answering the OP's question which I did.

    Now I can clearly explain why warsong is bad. You have yet to explain why it's good, or better than any of the other choices available. Furthermore you have not explained why my math is "wonky" when it is PRECISELY how warsong works.

    Point one shows you how warsong would be with full 20 sec uptime.

    Point two shows you what warsong is with if you miss the first 6 seconds.

    Point three shows you what warsong is if you miss 8 seconds, the typical duration of a pvp CC like poly, fear or cyclone.

    The last point explains how if you are off target for 4 seconds or more, the net benefit of warsong is WORSE than ANY of the other DPS weapon enchants available.

    Why bother replying when it's obvious that you're wrong and have no case to make for warsong other than it's what you read in some guide and followed, blindly. Yes, the only one here lacking vision is you...and that ebay glad. You are not arguing with my opinion, you are disputing a fact with your incorrect opinion.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    You can't ignore PvP, the main activity that most players engage in at max level, because it highlights the gaping flaws in your claim that warsong is a good choice of enchants for enhancement.
    Actually, I can, because when I am talking exclusively about PvE, its performance in PvP is 100% irrelevant, and given my suggestion was entirely related to PvE, I am obliged to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    Opinions exist when there is no conclusive basis to settle a disagreement. In this case, math clearly shows you why you're wrong...and I've already said a few posts back that you are more than welcome to continue maintaining your incorrect opinion on this matter, and under-performing as an enhance shaman because of this...but this thread is not about you and your opinion, it's about answering the OP's question which I did.

    Now I can clearly explain why warsong is bad. You have yet to explain why it's good, or better than any of the other choices available. Furthermore you have not explained why my math is "wonky" when it is PRECISELY how warsong works.
    Ok, your maths took the enchant in its 100% worst situation (it procs the exact second you have 4 seconds downtime). What about if the downtime is the last 3 seconds? What about if it's in the middle? How about the downtime is only one second? What, say, when there is virtually no downtime? That is why your math is wonky because it doesn't take any of that into account, you have provided a vacuum to make an assertion the enchant is bad, without any extra factors (actual value of said stats, anecdotal evidence/logs to prove it in action).

    Let's, instead, take a look at a log on Fel-Lord (I would use the top, but it has extremely low uptime on Bleeding Hollow which would provide unfair results, therefore I took number 2 which is my own which has more realistic, balanced procs of the two enchants, as I am using both.)

    We're going to take general stat weights here for both stats, Haste at 0.61 value of Agility, and Mastery at 0.51 value of Agility (these ARE simmed with Tier 18 gear)
    Warsong: Active for 124.2~ seconds of the fight (54% of a 3:50 parse); we take an average of 450 haste (VERY generous) assuming they have procced at the absolute worst times (soaking fissure, seeds, disarmed).
    Bleeding Hollow: Active for 128.8~ seconds (56%); with 500 mastery (assuming no procs happened during downtime).

    Warsong - 450*.61 = 274.5, reduce this down to 2.74*124.2 for its active uptime puts its value at roughly 340.308.
    Bleeding Hollow - 500*.51 = 255, reduced to 2.55*128.8 for uptime, value of 328.44

    For the sake of argument, if we take your own value of Warsong performing optimally:
    577 *.61 = 351.97, reduced to 3.52*124.2 = 437.184

    Those results are even in a weighted situation against Warsong and for Bleeding Hollow using data from an actual bossfight; where procs remained equal. This is also not factoring in that Bleeding Hollow is fundamentally more valuable during a Warsong proc than it is outside, as they synergize together, and Warsong procs have significantly more value during our cooldown window than Bleeding Hollow purely because it has no effect on Ascendance, Feral Spirit, or our auto attacks/windfury/stormstrike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    The last point explains how if you are off target for 4 seconds or more, the net benefit of warsong is WORSE than ANY of the other DPS weapon enchants available.
    It doesn't, because you do not take stat weights into account at all. It is also not factoring in when the downtime happens (even if there is downtime) or the fact that the benefits of using it will happen far, far more often than the stars aligning and you being completely off a target in PvE for 4 seconds (which is insanely rare anyway) and it actually proccing in that window (even rarer).

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    Why bother replying when it's obvious that you're wrong and have no case to make for warsong other than it's what you read in some guide and followed, blindly. Yes, the only one here lacking vision is you...and that ebay glad. You are not arguing with my opinion, you are disputing a fact with your incorrect opinion.
    This part is mostly just flaming and pointless stuff, you throwing mud around like "ebay glad" at someone who has openly stated is not interested in discussing PvP and relentlessly shoving PvP into my responses and down my throat sounds like a child throwing his toys out of the pram.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by wordup View Post
    Actually, I can, because when I am talking exclusively about PvE, its performance in PvP is 100% irrelevant, and given my suggestion was entirely related to PvE, I am obliged to do so.
    Your suggestion is irrelevant because the same problems that make warsong suck in pvp apply in pve.

    Ok, your maths took the enchant in its 100% worst situation (it procs the exact second you have 4 seconds downtime). What about if the downtime is the last 3 seconds? What about if it's in the middle? How about the downtime is only one second? What, say, when there is virtually no downtime? That is why your math is wonky because it doesn't take any of that into account, you have provided a vacuum to make an assertion the enchant is bad, without any extra factors (actual value of said stats, anecdotal evidence/logs to prove it in action).
    You don't really get it, do you? The 1000 haste you get TICKS DOWN. It always starts from 1000 and every 2 seconds decreases by 100. So...now follow this...if it procs off lightning shield, WHICH HAPPENS VERY OFTEN in both pvp and pve, you WILL MOST LIKELY BE OUT OF RANGE OF YOUR TARGET. It can easily take 4 seconds or more to get into melee range, all the while the countdown on the enchant has already started.

    Haste on its own is very uptime-dependent...but the tick-down mechanic of warsong exacerbates this problem causing an exponential decline in effectiveness even though it ticks down by fixed 100 point amounts.

    Let's, instead, take a look at a log on Fel-Lord (I would use the top, but it has extremely low uptime on Bleeding Hollow which would provide unfair results, therefore I took number 2 which is my own which has more realistic, balanced procs of the two enchants, as I am using both.)

    We're going to take general stat weights here for both stats, Haste at 0.61 value of Agility, and Mastery at 0.51 value of Agility (these ARE simmed with Tier 18 gear)
    Warsong: Active for 124.2~ seconds of the fight (54% of a 3:50 parse); we take an average of 450 haste (VERY generous) assuming they have procced at the absolute worst times (soaking fissure, seeds, disarmed).
    Bleeding Hollow: Active for 128.8~ seconds (56%); with 500 mastery (assuming no procs happened during downtime).

    Warsong - 450*.61 = 274.5, reduce this down to 2.74*124.2 for its active uptime puts its value at roughly 340.308.
    Bleeding Hollow - 500*.51 = 255, reduced to 2.55*128.8 for uptime, value of 328.44

    For the sake of argument, if we take your own value of Warsong performing optimally:
    577 *.61 = 351.97, reduced to 3.52*124.2 = 437.184
    Talk about wonky math and trying to make a case for bad enchant using a very specific situation and/or optimal conditions. I never said that if you were somehow able to maintain 100% uptime for the duration of the warsong proc that your DPS would not be higher, but reality is for you to have 20 seconds of uninterrupted bang time on a target is wishful thinking at best. The math was already completed for you, and your assumed values for haste and mastery are very sketchy at best.

    Those results are even in a weighted situation against Warsong and for Bleeding Hollow using data from an actual bossfight; where procs remained equal. This is also not factoring in that Bleeding Hollow is fundamentally more valuable during a Warsong proc than it is outside, as they synergize together, and Warsong procs have significantly more value during our cooldown window than Bleeding Hollow purely because it has no effect on Ascendance, Feral Spirit, or our auto attacks/windfury/stormstrike.
    Weighting is a method of skewing statistical results to favor a particular point of view, and nudge in damage you may gain during ascendance is easily outweighed by you doing 9% more damage on average with all of your non-physical attacks. Most of your damage is NOT coming from windfury, that has been relegated to a MW generator and little more. Stormstrike hits hard but with mastery, lava lash outpaces SS and is not affected by armor. The shorter CDs and GCDs are nice to have, but not at the expense of what you'd be giving up by choosing warsong.

    It doesn't, because you do not take stat weights into account at all. It is also not factoring in when the downtime happens (even if there is downtime) or the fact that the benefits of using it will happen far, far more often than the stars aligning and you being completely off a target in PvE for 4 seconds (which is insanely rare anyway) and it actually proccing in that window (even rarer).
    You do realize that those stat weights are fairly arbitrary and subject to debate, a debate I'm really not interested in having. The math I laid out for you does not require any kind of statistical analysis to understand. It clearly illustrates how, overall, you get better results with bleeding hollow than warsong...but if you are in a situation where you get 100% uptime then hey, I'll concede that your average DPS might be a bit higher with warsong. That's all you'll get from me.

    This part is mostly just flaming and pointless stuff, you throwing mud around like "ebay glad" at someone who has openly stated is not interested in discussing PvP and relentlessly shoving PvP into my responses and down my throat sounds like a child throwing his toys out of the pram.
    No flaming. Grow some thicker skin; no need for tears. I wasn't calling you an ebay glad, I was talking about the other guy that bought a 3K rating in 3s. Tone it down with the insecurities man.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    Your suggestion is irrelevant because the same problems that make warsong suck in pvp apply in pve.
    You stated the downtime is caused by CC in PvP, which does not occur in PvE. If you can find me an encounter in current content where there is repeat 4+ second downtime intervals that will always affect you; even if one such existed, you again would have to have RNG so terrible that it procced at that exact moment the downtime began every time to cause it to be so weak. However, if such an encounter existed, I would even consider erring on the side of Thunderlord/Frostwolf over Bleeding Hollow simply because at the very least when we have active uptime on the target, it is affecting 100% of our damage sources; though they both have weaker proc mechanics than the flat proc Bleeding Hollow has which makes them very close regardless for Single Target.

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    So...now follow this...if it procs off lightning shield, WHICH HAPPENS VERY OFTEN in both pvp and pve
    Unfortunately very few raid mechanic AoE abilities are actually triggering Lightning Shield, hense why the glyph isn't actually that strong; due to whatever design choice Blizzard made to cause this, making this a lot rarer than you may think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    you WILL MOST LIKELY BE OUT OF RANGE OF YOUR TARGET. It can easily take 4 seconds or more to get into melee range, all the while the countdown on the enchant has already started.
    4 Seconds would still place the enchant at (by your own maths) 472.5 effective haste, making it higher than the 450 I demonstrated above, meaning that it would outperform Bleeding Hollow in that situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    Haste on its own is very uptime-dependent...but the tick-down mechanic of warsong exacerbates this problem causing an exponential decline in effectiveness even though it ticks down by fixed 100 point amounts.
    Not technically correct as a proc could come just before the downtime happens and you get to put your spells on cooldown, so they effectively snapshot the cooldown because of your haste at the moment of use, and as long as you get back onto the boss and re-use them before they start to sit ready, you have lost very little outside of auto-attack damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    Talk about wonky math and trying to make a case for bad enchant using a very specific situation and/or optimal conditions. I never said that if you were somehow able to maintain 100% uptime for the duration of the warsong proc that your DPS would not be higher, but reality is for you to have 20 seconds of uninterrupted bang time on a target is wishful thinking at best. The math was already completed for you, and your assumed values for haste and mastery are very sketchy at best.
    I have done my best to pull the most fair and reasonable log I can find of the enchants being used in conjunction in which there is occasions of perceived "downtime" that you are stating will affect them (whether you have experiences of current tier content I'm not sure, so I'll assume neither yes or no on this). I then opted to weight the maths against Warsong to demonstrate that it is still worth using; I feel like that is the most fair I can be to both of them when looking at their performance at the ground level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    nudge in damage you may gain during ascendance is easily outweighed by you doing 9% more damage on average with all of your non-physical attacks.
    Damage during Ascendance; given that the ring exists in content, cooldown stacking occurs and Warsong will, if it procs in the opener, generally provide a noticeable bump in windlashes and windstrikes and increase your DPS by a noticeable amount, that can't just be ignored in a world where our damage is funneled into short windows, even moreso after the 30% buff that it received.

    Let's look at another log (For the sake of fairness, I have found one that doesn't make use of Soul Capacitor or the ring as that makes it much harder to discern spell contribution).

    You can see that 57.2% of all damage dealt is by spells; meaning that the 9% damage increase translates to 5.148% total damage increase during a proc (well, slightly lower as the enchant is actually being used by the player so it's already affected). Given you are proposing its strength comes from being able to still gain a benefit at range, we remove Lava Lash, Flametongue and Electrocute from that equation (21.19%) making it 36.01%, or 3.24% increase during said downtime. Considering you err on the side of bad RNG, we're going to remove MW charges being pre-prepared; given the downtime you are suggesting that also implies low player skill in most raid encounters. Through Shocks/Totems/Liquid Magma; 18.99%~ worth of damage sources are affected during downtime, ergo the effect at range is still quite low however you slice it. To mitigate this slightly again, Warsong still has the benefit of allowing you to reduce the cooldown of UE while out of range, or be able to utilize its snapshot-esque effect before moving out if possible.

    Now, again, I am assuming prior knowledge of encounters in HFC and damage sources for Enhancement that is known, however since you're a PvPer (which again, I am fully willing to admit I am not experienced in or at liberty to comment on) your regular spell contributions may be noticeably different as the ranged aspect is more frequently used in that aspect of gameplay than it is within raids.

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    Most of your damage is NOT coming from windfury, that has been relegated to a MW generator and little more.
    Not strictly true anymore given HFC trinkets; but I can understand to an extent that it's not fair to judge purely around having it equipped, so this is a fair assessment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    Stormstrike hits hard but with mastery, lava lash outpaces SS and is not affected by armor.
    This is no longer true following the 30% Stormstrike buff that happened earlier in the tier. Referring back to the log I used previously (the log I used for the above is prior to this buff, so can't be used as an example), you can see that Lava Lash contributes 11.68% of my damage, whilst Stormstrike combined MH/OH resulted in 12.27%, even despite Lava Lash resets and Stormstrike contributing zero damage during Ascendance as it is replaced.

    From that I get a slight impression reading your breakdown that your knowledge is a bit dated in the PvE department, as this information, as it was relatively applicable prior to HFC release, rebalancing of spell contributions and gear available has altered performance somewhat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    The shorter CDs and GCDs are nice to have, but not at the expense of what you'd be giving up by choosing warsong.
    I don't feel you give up very much at all by switching off double Bleeding Hollow, as highlighted above by the percentage of high contribution spells that are unaffected by its use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    You do realize that those stat weights are fairly arbitrary and subject to debate, a debate I'm really not interested in having.
    The only accurate method we have of determining stat weights is via simulations and these weights are reflected routinely throughout PvE gear levels as Enhancement. Whilst they are not arbitrary, if you can provide an alternate method for determining values accurately I am open to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    The math I laid out for you does not require any kind of statistical analysis to understand.
    I feel like that's oversimplifying the matter quite drastically in the PvE environment where everything is so finely tuned to optimal play; you really do need to factor in the value of statistics against each other to make a fair decision on which you will opt for as opposed to simply deciding based on what proc mechanic you may find the best to play around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    It clearly illustrates how, overall, you get better results with bleeding hollow than warsong...but if you are in a situation where you get 100% uptime then hey, I'll concede that your average DPS might be a bit higher with warsong. That's all you'll get from me.
    Whilst I don't think it illustrates it clearly; I can to some extent accept that, in a situation in PvE where there is huge downtime that happens repeatedly (it's very difficult to imagine as this hasn't really happened regularly where there is downtime only by forcing you out of melee range but you can still cast spells) that alternate enchants may slightly eek the others out, but at that point I'd wager that Thunderlord and Frostwolf are equally competitive and given in PvE you should be aiming to optimize your character then play around that to the best of your ability, I don't think it would benefit any to switch any of this out. This is, however, assuming the worst possible RNG hitting you over and over at the worst moment; which I think regardless of your enchant, you're going to be doing poorly anyway so there isn't a great deal you can do via enchants to mitigate that
    Last edited by wordup; 2015-08-20 at 04:21 AM.

  5. #25
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    Most players PvP. Full-time raids and dungeons are a mini-game...so let's talk about this through the context of what MOST players do - PVP
    Most players do neither. However, min-maxing is far more important for PvE than it is for PvP. If i'm going to go full nerd-mode about what enchant is on my weapon, i'm going to worry about PvE, not the CC fest that is PvP. Your statement and entire argument is horseshit.

  6. #26
    I don't really min/max in PVP. The things I do to maximize DPS is for PVE. I am still under the impression that Haste>Versa>Multistrike> is better for PVP. Am I wrong for Enchanting Multi for my weapons?
    I have no problems in PVE except for Tyrant, which I can't seem to log above a 50th percentile. However for other fights I am usually above 80-85 on farm content without really trying (no augment runes, no change of talents, etc). 94+ on progression. I am also on a lackluster server for progression.
    I find the back and forth interesting on the weapon enchants, but I follow what Wordup has been saying and I am doing quite well and my logs show it.
    I do not think you can compare PVE to PVP. You guys will argue until the cows come home.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by wordup View Post
    You stated the downtime is caused by CC in PvP, which does not occur in PvE. If you can find me an encounter in current content where there is repeat 4+ second downtime intervals that will always affect you; even if one such existed, you again would have to have RNG so terrible that it procced at that exact moment the downtime began every time to cause it to be so weak. However, if such an encounter existed, I would even consider erring on the side of Thunderlord/Frostwolf over Bleeding Hollow simply because at the very least when we have active uptime on the target, it is affecting 100% of our damage sources; though they both have weaker proc mechanics than the flat proc Bleeding Hollow has which makes them very close regardless for Single Target.
    I listed CC as one possible cause for being off-target, and in pvp it's an assurance. We get enough crit from our SS debuff, to the point that choosing a crit enchant over bleeding hollow is just as silly as going for warsong over BH.

    Unfortunately very few raid mechanic AoE abilities are actually triggering Lightning Shield, hense why the glyph isn't actually that strong; due to whatever design choice Blizzard made to cause this, making this a lot rarer than you may think.
    If you take any damage LS will trigger. While AoE damage is not constant, it's there and it procs LS, which will more likely than not proc whatever enchants you are using...and again, we're not talking about pve-only because that's more convenient for you. We're talking about the game overall, and if you want to swap enchants based on the situation you can certainly find some situations where warsong may edge out BH, but overall it will not.

    4 Seconds would still place the enchant at (by your own maths) 472.5 effective haste, making it higher than the 450 I demonstrated above, meaning that it would outperform Bleeding Hollow in that situation.
    No, it would not, because bleeding hollow is 500 mastery for the entire duration of the buff. The 472 figure (450 * 1.05 because enhancement gets 5% more haste rating) represents the ACTUAL value of haste that you receive for the remaining duration of the buff if you are actually in melee range and attacking...so yes, if you miss the first 4 seconds then the DPS value of warsong falls off in favor of BH. With BH you start with 500 mastery and end with 500 mastery, and 500 > 450 or 472.

    Not technically correct as a proc could come just before the downtime happens and you get to put your spells on cooldown, so they effectively snapshot the cooldown because of your haste at the moment of use, and as long as you get back onto the boss and re-use them before they start to sit ready, you have lost very little outside of auto-attack damage.
    You are missing the point that haste is only benefiting exclusively for the time that you are in melee range. STATIC haste, as provided by gear, which does not change over time is fine...dynamic haste, like procs from the enchant, have a very limited time frame of effectiveness.

    I have done my best to pull the most fair and reasonable log I can find of the enchants being used in conjunction in which there is occasions of perceived "downtime" that you are stating will affect them (whether you have experiences of current tier content I'm not sure, so I'll assume neither yes or no on this). I then opted to weight the maths against Warsong to demonstrate that it is still worth using; I feel like that is the most fair I can be to both of them when looking at their performance at the ground level.
    You're trying to use logs that support your claims, but ignore the fact that this conversation is about enchants in general and not specific situations with ideal conditions. You can use any enchant you want, but warsong is not the best overall enchant for MOST situations. It's bad for melee even though enhance in particular favors haste as a dps stat.

    Damage during Ascendance; given that the ring exists in content, cooldown stacking occurs and Warsong will, if it procs in the opener, generally provide a noticeable bump in windlashes and windstrikes and increase your DPS by a noticeable amount, that can't just be ignored in a world where our damage is funneled into short windows, even moreso after the 30% buff that it received.
    In order for this to be a valid point, the player would need to pop ascendance at the exact moment warsong procs. When you consider the fact that the total damage for the duration of your ascendance CD is probably accounting for less than 10% of your total DPS, even if you were to double the damage you deal with ascendance the contribution to your total DPS would be negligible. Same thing for feral spirits...their total DPS contribution over protracted fights is minimal.

    But you are right, haste benefits ascendance...but it's not going to benefit lightning bolt, lightning shield, elemental blast, the damage dealt by your elementals or any of your shocks. The bit of irony here is that if you made this argument in favor of using warsong in pvp, you would have scored points...but as an argument for using warsong in pve it fails.

    Let's look at another log (For the sake of fairness, I have found one that doesn't make use of Soul Capacitor or the ring as that makes it much harder to discern spell contribution).

    You can see that 57.2% of all damage dealt is by spells; meaning that the 9% damage increase translates to 5.148% total damage increase during a proc (well, slightly lower as the enchant is actually being used by the player so it's already affected). Given you are proposing its strength comes from being able to still gain a benefit at range, we remove Lava Lash, Flametongue and Electrocute from that equation (21.19%) making it 36.01%, or 3.24% increase during said downtime. Considering you err on the side of bad RNG, we're going to remove MW charges being pre-prepared; given the downtime you are suggesting that also implies low player skill in most raid encounters. Through Shocks/Totems/Liquid Magma; 18.99%~ worth of damage sources are affected during downtime, ergo the effect at range is still quite low however you slice it. To mitigate this slightly again, Warsong still has the benefit of allowing you to reduce the cooldown of UE while out of range, or be able to utilize its snapshot-esque effect before moving out if possible.
    Firstly, there is no "skill" required for raiding. You require memorization. It is expected that raiders watch a how-to on youtube, which is how pathetic raiding is and why I'm staunchly opposed to it being such a focus of developer time. With that bit out of the way...

    9% is 9%...you don't start with 9% on proc and tick down to 1% by the end of the proc. Your abilities gain from bleeding hollow equally at any point in the duration of the buff...by contrast, warsong gives you a window of 4 seconds immediately after it procs to gain the most benefit, so you essentially get one GCD off for each tick. Even with the GCD reduced by dual warsong procs, you're still going to be >1 sec GCD...so it is impossible to pull off more than one attack within the 2 second tick window.

    Bleeding hollow, while shorter in duration, procs more frequently and when it does, the damage you deal is buffed 9% (assuming you have dual BH procs). That means stronger flame shock ticks, harder-hitting liquid magma, etc for 12 sec or whatever the buff duration is.

    When you look at it that way, maybe...just maybe you begin to understand why warsong really only benefits ranged classes that have passive damage like DoTs as their primary damage source...

    Now, again, I am assuming prior knowledge of encounters in HFC and damage sources for Enhancement that is known, however since you're a PvPer (which again, I am fully willing to admit I am not experienced in or at liberty to comment on) your regular spell contributions may be noticeably different as the ranged aspect is more frequently used in that aspect of gameplay than it is within raids.
    It's the same game. PvP and PvE are different in that pvp is dynamic and pve is static. Pve is predictable, pvp is not....but in pvp you WILL be taking damage as soon as you are within 40 yds of someone, and because enhance has no gap closing abilities our enchants proc immediately from lightning shield while we are still getting in range. CC is another major element; you can expect to spend 30-40% of the time fighting another player being CC'd.

    PvP is about delivering strong hits while you are in melee range. Flat DPS doesn't matter so much as your ability to lop off big chunks of HP when you finally make it into range.

    I have played extensively with BH and warsong enchants and can say definitively that the majority of situations you encounter in the game - pvp or pve - BH is the way to go...but the nice thing is that you can still run warsong if you want to, or if you do better with it. Not all enhancers play the same.

    Not strictly true anymore given HFC trinkets; but I can understand to an extent that it's not fair to judge purely around having it equipped, so this is a fair assessment.
    Situational. You may or may not have that trinket, and a certain combination of items really works better with warsong then go for it...but that doesn't change the fact that warsong is situational and the "workhorse" enchant for enhancers should be bleeding hollow.

    This is no longer true following the 30% Stormstrike buff that happened earlier in the tier. Referring back to the log I used previously (the log I used for the above is prior to this buff, so can't be used as an example), you can see that Lava Lash contributes 11.68% of my damage, whilst Stormstrike combined MH/OH resulted in 12.27%, even despite Lava Lash resets and Stormstrike contributing zero damage during Ascendance as it is replaced.
    Lava lash was also buffed, at least 20%, and SS eats an armor penalty while LL, being spell damage, does not get mitigated. Baseline, SS and LL are both similar in total damage per hit, once your mastery is above say 60% LL starts hitting noticeably harder, and more often since it can be reset by flame shock ticks.

    Your logs are not going to give you answers. You should know that enhance has a fairly busy UI that requires you, the player, to sometimes choose which attack to use more often. There have been situations where I favor LL over SS and LL and vice versa. If I am getting a lot of resets on LL due to flame shock spread, I will be spamming LL whenever it lights up. In situations where there are not many targets to spread flame shock to, LL gets hit with full CDs more often and SS can take the lead because it's CD is shorter. Also, SS is the only direct ability that can generate 2 MW per GCD, and so favoring SS over LL if both CDs are up is not a bad idea if you do not have a MW5 stack already.

    From that I get a slight impression reading your breakdown that your knowledge is a bit dated in the PvE department, as this information, as it was relatively applicable prior to HFC release, rebalancing of spell contributions and gear available has altered performance somewhat.
    I, like most players, do not participate in raiding, but I find that what works in pvp tends to work just fine in pve. That is a very small minority, so to talk about it like it's the main thing everyone does is disingenuous at best.

    I don't feel you give up very much at all by switching off double Bleeding Hollow, as highlighted above by the percentage of high contribution spells that are unaffected by its use.
    You at least realized that I'm correct about the fact that most of our damage is coming from our spells, which benefit from BH.

    The only accurate method we have of determining stat weights is via simulations and these weights are reflected routinely throughout PvE gear levels as Enhancement. Whilst they are not arbitrary, if you can provide an alternate method for determining values accurately I am open to that.
    Arbitrary and accurate are not exactly friends. Your stat weights assume static values that do not change. It doesn't really matter if you optimize for some kind of baseline performance that doesn't scale well with buffs, enchant procs or other abilities that may affect you down the line.

    The warsong enchant is anything but static because its RNG proc and it ticks down in value. To assign an accurate "weight" to warsong, and by extension haste, you have to include target uptime (for any melee spec, except for maybe ferals because of bleeds and ass. rogues because of poisons) in the equation and that can vary quite a bit. Furthermore, if you do not get on target for the first 4 seconds of the warsong proc, you've given up a lot of its benefit as mentioned before.

    I feel like that's oversimplifying the matter quite drastically in the PvE environment where everything is so finely tuned to optimal play; you really do need to factor in the value of statistics against each other to make a fair decision on which you will opt for as opposed to simply deciding based on what proc mechanic you may find the best to play around.
    I feel like you are trying to obfuscate the matter by making it seem more complicated than it actually is. 550 is the base value of haste you get from warsong with 100% uptime on target. You get off one GCD per tick, and each tick declines by 100 haste.

    If warsong proc'd a 550 static haste value for 10 seconds INSTEAD of 1000 haste for 20 second that ticks down by 10% every 2 seconds, I would be far more inclined to use warsong on at least one of my weapons.

    Whilst I don't think it illustrates it clearly; I can to some extent accept that, in a situation in PvE where there is huge downtime that happens repeatedly (it's very difficult to imagine as this hasn't really happened regularly where there is downtime only by forcing you out of melee range but you can still cast spells) that alternate enchants may slightly eek the others out, but at that point I'd wager that Thunderlord and Frostwolf are equally competitive and given in PvE you should be aiming to optimize your character then play around that to the best of your ability, I don't think it would benefit any to switch any of this out. This is, however, assuming the worst possible RNG hitting you over and over at the worst moment; which I think regardless of your enchant, you're going to be doing poorly anyway so there isn't a great deal you can do via enchants to mitigate that
    If you are casting spells as enhance when you are out of melee range INSTEAD of running back into melee range, you're doing it wrong...so that means you can throw a shock, ghost wolf, and run...with the homogenization of the game, there isn't much in the way of optimizing other than choosing certain glyphs/talents for an upcoming situation.

    As far as enchants go, with most of your damage coming from RANGED spells a flat 9% boost to said damage makes more sense to me than an enchant that tapers off in value 4 seconds after its proc.

    Quote Originally Posted by stiglet View Post
    Most players do neither. However, min-maxing is far more important for PvE than it is for PvP. If i'm going to go full nerd-mode about what enchant is on my weapon, i'm going to worry about PvE, not the CC fest that is PvP. Your statement and entire argument is horseshit.
    Most players do engage in pvp, and CC fest or not, it's still more fun than pve. My statement is 100% accurate, but look at it this way...if I agreed with you we'd both be wrong...so there's that. Now go back to your enhance shaman that has dual spirit enchants on weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooligun View Post
    I don't really min/max in PVP. The things I do to maximize DPS is for PVE. I am still under the impression that Haste>Versa>Multistrike> is better for PVP. Am I wrong for Enchanting Multi for my weapons?
    Multistrike is like crit lite. In pvp it only has one chance to proc per attack, in pve it has two chances per attack to proc...but mathematically it works out to the same DPS contribution as crit. It does, however, have the benefit of providing us with slightly improved MW proc generation, so in that regard it may be a bit better than crit.

    Versatility is my preferred stat. Flat damage and healing boost as well as a damage reduction - no guesswork, you know exactly how much more damage you are doing. You can't really beat it, but since there are no +versatility weapon enchants, your best bet is bleeding hollow.

    I have no problems in PVE except for Tyrant, which I can't seem to log above a 50th percentile. However for other fights I am usually above 80-85 on farm content without really trying (no augment runes, no change of talents, etc). 94+ on progression. I am also on a lackluster server for progression.
    I find the back and forth interesting on the weapon enchants, but I follow what Wordup has been saying and I am doing quite well and my logs show it.
    I do not think you can compare PVE to PVP. You guys will argue until the cows come home.
    Uptime is a lot higher in pve than pvp, that builds a case for warsong...that's what he's saying, but that is situational. If all you do and plan to do is pve, then maybe warsong is the way to go for you, but overall bleeding hollow is the best enchant because it gives the most consistent damage boost in ALL aspects of the game.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    We get enough crit from our SS debuff, to the point that choosing a crit enchant over bleeding hollow is just as silly as going for warsong over BH.
    You clearly do not understand stat values or depreciation, or the fact that, as I demonstrated above (you've clearly ignored most of my post I can tell because of the way you have responded) 40%+ of our damage is from non-magical sources, and even less of said magical sources gain from Stormstrike. I suppose, as you said earlier in this thread, "arithmatic eludes you".

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    If you take any damage LS will trigger. While AoE damage is not constant, it's there and it procs LS
    Not true, provide evidence. A vast majority of AoE in encounters these days come from sources not tied to bosses/targets so Lightning Shield has nothing to rebound to, causing it to not trigger or deal any damage. This is widely known; you clearly just aren't up to date on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    You are missing the point that haste is only benefiting exclusively for the time that you are in melee range.
    Lack of understanding in a PvE environment/mindset.

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    It's bad for melee even though enhance in particular favors haste as a dps stat.
    Even worse lack of understanding in a PvE environment when other classes that do NOT prefer haste are even edging toward it for raiding now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    Lava lash was also buffed, at least 20%
    No, this did not happen when Stormstrike/Windstrike got a 30% buff which changed the balance, you need to check your notes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    But you are right, haste benefits ascendance...but it's not going to benefit lightning bolt, lightning shield, elemental blast, the damage dealt by your elementals or any of your shocks. The bit of irony here is that if you made this argument in favor of using warsong in pvp, you would have scored points...but as an argument for using warsong in pve it fails.
    Haste is providing increased swings from attacks which in turn are creating more MW charges, producing more Lightning Bolt/EB casts. Haste also directly increases the attack speed/cast speed of Elementals (to a rate that will increase their damage FAR more than 9% increase via mastery will for its uptime) and is also increasing your shock damage indirectly by reducing cooldown. I've attempted to be courteous to an extent but this is the most basic of knowledge you lack now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    I, like most players, do not participate in raiding, but I find that what works in pvp tends to work just fine in pve. That is a very small minority, so to talk about it like it's the main thing everyone does is disingenuous at best.
    "I, like most players, do not participate in PvE. I find what works in questiong and daily works fine in PvP and PvE, PvP is a small minority so to talk about it like it's the main thing everyone does is disingenuous at best". See the irony here?

    Just by looking at the Arena ladder in EU there are 639 players 2500 (a reasonably high breakpoint). Compare that to EU high end PvE content, there are 242 guilds who are just under half way through HFC killing Mything Gorefiend, at 4840 players. For perspective, the 4840 cut off is at 1999. Do you do any research on participation or do you just assume because it's what you do everyone else does it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    we're not talking about pve-only because that's more convenient for you.
    Regardless of whatever content you have put in the post, I'm not going to be reading past this. I do not discuss purely PvE because it is "convenient" for me. They are two separate aspects of the class. You are assuming your PvP knowledge gives you credence to comment on an aspect of the game you have clearly done no research into nor understand, which would be as foolish as me pretending that my PvE understanding is in anyway applicable to PvP.

    They are separate; just because you have decided to over-stretch your understanding of aspects of the game you do not to create an argument or narrative that PvE and PvP are intrinsically linked for min/max (they aren't) does not mean that it will ever reflect that in the real world.

    Given how basic your calculations are to define or evaluate these things highlight how little you actually understand about the mathematical min/maxing of said effects in an environment of player skill vs. predetermined encounters where PvP oriented issues do not factor in. The difference is, however, that I am very transparent about my lack of knowledge of an aspect of the game I do not partake in, you however, seem to be insistent on barging in and commenting on something you are completely unable to evaluate (or understand) objectively.

    Oh, wait, no, I also caught this gem:

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    Firstly, there is no "skill" required for raiding. You require memorization. It is expected that raiders watch a how-to on youtube, which is how pathetic raiding is and why I'm staunchly opposed to it being such a focus of developer time. With that bit out of the way...
    After seeing this it's abundantly clear not only are you busy blowing hot air at everyone because of how self-important you think you are, but are attacking people because of a part of the game you deem beneath you (it's just as easy for me to say PvP takes no skill, hense why no-one watches WoW PvP anymore nor really even engages in it outside of their weekly gear grind). I think you need to take a step back and grow up, instead of going for the jugular of other players because they enjoy doing something you have some petty frustration over.
    Last edited by wordup; 2015-08-21 at 03:59 AM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by wordup View Post
    You clearly do not understand stat values or depreciation, or the fact that, as I demonstrated above (you've clearly ignored most of my post I can tell because of the way you have responded) 40%+ of our damage is from non-magical sources, and even less of said magical sources gain from Stormstrike. I suppose, as you said earlier in this thread, "arithmatic eludes you".
    You clearly do not understand that you lost the argument several posts ago when you decided to dispute the simple fact that warsong provides an average of 550 haste, but only if you maintain full uptime for its duration.

    All of the nonsense you've introduced in an effort to deflect form the fundamental weakness and wrongness of your claims about warsong being better than bleeding hollow are just that - nonsense.

    Not true, provide evidence. A vast majority of AoE in encounters these days come from sources not tied to bosses/targets so Lightning Shield has nothing to rebound to, causing it to not trigger or deal any damage. This is widely known; you clearly just aren't up to date on this.
    Ahh, there we go again attempting to point at highly specific conditions that are only relevant to what...like 3%, maybe 5% of the entire WoW population who actually does raids. Even in pve that most players participate in - daily quests and dungeons - the question was not which enchant YOU prefer, it's what's the best for enhance and that would be bleeding hollow. Even in situations where warsong does outperform bleeding hollow, i.e. where u get 100% uninterrupted uptime for 20 sec assuming both warsong procs go off at the same time, you are talking maybe a 1% difference.

    Lack of understanding in a PvE environment/mindset.
    Everyone understands pve. You're not a special snowflake. Calm down.

    Even worse lack of understanding in a PvE environment when other classes that do NOT prefer haste are even edging toward it for raiding now.
    So now you're trying to weave "consensus" into the mix as your original argument goes down in flames. You mean the consensus formed by players all watching the same videos getting the same dubious advice on forums like these from faux-know-it-alls like you?

    No, this did not happen when Stormstrike/Windstrike got a 30% buff which changed the balance, you need to check your notes.
    LOL at the know-it-all fail...hotfix from June 25 was in testing, went live:

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/198...e-25-6-25-2015

    Buff was +20% for LL, SS and wind strike.

    Haste is providing increased swings from attacks which in turn are creating more MW charges, producing more Lightning Bolt/EB casts. Haste also directly increases the attack speed/cast speed of Elementals (to a rate that will increase their damage FAR more than 9% increase via mastery will for its uptime) and is also increasing your shock damage indirectly by reducing cooldown. I've attempted to be courteous to an extent but this is the most basic of knowledge you lack now.
    Nothing in this paragraph disputes the fact that you must be in melee range to enjoy said benefits, and that if you're out of range for as little as 4 seconds, the advantage of warsong vanishes just like your credibility did when you started asserting your flawed opinions over known facts.

    "I, like most players, do not participate in PvE. I find what works in questiong and daily works fine in PvP and PvE, PvP is a small minority so to talk about it like it's the main thing everyone does is disingenuous at best". See the irony here?
    No, nothing ironic at all. My recommendation that enhance shaman use bleeding hollow benefits ALL shaman regardless of what they are doing. Your suggestion may offer very small advantages in certain situations under certain conditions, but overall the warsong enchant for melee is just bad.

    Just by looking at the Arena ladder in EU there are 639 players 2500 (a reasonably high breakpoint). Compare that to EU high end PvE content, there are 242 guilds who are just under half way through HFC killing Mything Gorefiend, at 4840 players. For perspective, the 4840 cut off is at 1999. Do you do any research on participation or do you just assume because it's what you do everyone else does it?
    Why are you trying to limit the participation by rating, as if we should only consider those who play EU arena above 2500 rating? Because people who don't know anything and make terrible arguments, as you have been doing, are swimming against the fact stream.

    The correct question is: "What percentage of players engage primarily in pvp of any kind, rated or not as their endgame activity?" vs "What percentage of players engage in raiding?"

    You see, raiding is the only form of pve that provides access to top-tier pve gear...while any form of pvp can contribute to acquiring top tier pvp gear...so you can do arena, rated bgs, ashran...

    Your constant reliance on third-party information in a A-B debate clearly highlights your general lack of knowledge.

    Regardless of whatever content you have put in the post, I'm not going to be reading past this. I do not discuss purely PvE because it is "convenient" for me. They are two separate aspects of the class. You are assuming your PvP knowledge gives you credence to comment on an aspect of the game you have clearly done no research into nor understand, which would be as foolish as me pretending that my PvE understanding is in anyway applicable to PvP.
    I guess if I was as wrong as you, I'd be making comments like this too. You are grossly overestimating the complexity of pve. As stated, it is about memorization not skill. You perform a rotation, which you memorize, to defeat a scripted boss that does the EXACT SAME THING EACH TIME, which you also memorize. At what point does "skill" enter that equation?

    Nobody is faulting you for participating in pve, but don't try to say it's something it's not to make yourself feel better. Pvp is the only aspect of this game that does take any kind of skill, especially as an enhancement shaman.

    They are separate; just because you have decided to over-stretch your understanding of aspects of the game you do not to create an argument or narrative that PvE and PvP are intrinsically linked for min/max (they aren't) does not mean that it will ever reflect that in the real world.
    Totally irrelevant comment as your attempts to deflect continue... You are the one talking about "min-max", which has nothing to do with this thread. The question was what's the best enchant for enhancement and to be the best it has to be effective in a variety of conditions. If the question was "what's the best enchant to use for this particular raid", then MAYBE you'd have a point...maybe. But bleeding hollow works fine in ANY situation in the game.

    Given how basic your calculations are to define or evaluate these things highlight how little you actually understand about the mathematical min/maxing of said effects in an environment of player skill vs. predetermined encounters where PvP oriented issues do not factor in. The difference is, however, that I am very transparent about my lack of knowledge of an aspect of the game I do not partake in, you however, seem to be insistent on barging in and commenting on something you are completely unable to evaluate (or understand) objectively.
    My basic calculations are correct.

    Yes, your lack of knowledge transcends all aspects of the game. Your entire argument(s) hinge on ignoring the issue and creating your own straw-men then claiming that warsong is the best enchant to take those straw men out.

    After seeing this it's abundantly clear not only are you busy blowing hot air at everyone because of how self-important you think you are, but are attacking people because of a part of the game you deem beneath you (it's just as easy for me to say PvP takes no skill, hense why no-one watches WoW PvP anymore nor really even engages in it outside of their weekly gear grind). I think you need to take a step back and grow up, instead of going for the jugular of other players because they enjoy doing something you have some petty frustration over.
    You are not "people", you are one person, and nobody is attacking you so stop crying. You are wrong about warsong, and that's that. You chose to push this, not me.

    You can say pvp takes no skill, but then you would be wrong again. Are you going for a record on how many times you can be blatantly wrong in a single thread? LOL Plenty of people watch pvp on youtube FOR ENTERTAINMENT because it's fun to watch and fun to play. Nobody ever watched pve videos for entertainment - they watch them because figuring out how to 'win' is something they cannot do on their own (apparently) and so they have to cheat.

    As I said, do pve if that's what you like but don't kid yourself into thinking there is "skill" involved...unless memorization is now a "skill".

  10. #30
    You are spreading so much false informations, wrong math and stupid ideas about pvp and pve Professor Expert, keep this up it help me start every day with a big smile.

    As a highly experimented Enhancement both pvp and pve i can tell that all your posts are pure madness even if i dont agree every thing that wordup says on guides or here (i think too much sim kill the sim utility).

    Comparing MM vs 2k5 rated is fair, since its the high end pvp player vs the high end pve players, more pvpers than pver ?

    yo 90% of every single player atleast completed LFR and not many less are doing the NM, then now you can compare all the 90% players to the people that are doing RBG/Arena/Ashran, no need to be a genius to tell your statement about pvp is deep, pure, tasty shit, so is your pve conception... no skill required, come on boy, i have a sit for you on my next HM (or i can even go for NM just for you) clean so i can laugh at your performances.

    And yes i just created an account !!! What i promises myself to never do, bult couldnt resist all this bullshit spread :d

    PS : and yea you missed a buff on SS tha last hotfix that didnt buff LL.

    sorry for the english, not my main language.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Forgot to respond to the main subject : the goal in arena is to blow the shit out of the enemy during Ascendance when he has no more def CD or cc available, the only enchant that buff Ascendance is ? guess what ? wohoooo haste enchant... and guess what ? you hit from range during it...

    And if you tell me that Warsong will not proc during it, i will tell you track your enchants procs (but yeah tracking things may be something for pve, pvp need to be vanilla/no addon game, for mens you know (with 250 macros, because more macros = more skill = more keybind = more pgm).

    And for the "lignthing shield proc my warsong when i am out of range" this argument is stupid as fuck.
    In pve it never (NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER YOU ARE WRONG STOP ARGUING) happen, and in pvp, you are not here to destroy the guy the second you enter in fight, you have to make him pop def cd, or just wait possible CC that could screw your burst, then your warsong will have 4/5 others procs during the time you really start the real things, this is reality, this is how it works in the real wowlife.

    When you get cced out of range, when you get kited, there is no advantage for BH, 0, nada, just no :
    you are out of range,
    you are doing nothing but runing and spaming purge/def cd, los etc,
    BH will not help at all, who the fuck care about the damage of frosts shock ?????? because thats the only utility here in range.
    Warsong may help you cast a flash faster, unleash cd is reduced, frost shock cd is reduced (you know the things help you to gap close)
    Warsong last longuer than BH, lets the case you gett cced and kited like a boss ? you go back to the target BH is gone, but nop Warsong still up even if its not big and not for a long time, it is a buff, vs 0 utility from BH.
    and the best for the end, Warsong buff a shitload your elementals, like miles above a shitty BH proc.

    By.

  11. #31
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    Now go back to your enhance shaman that has dual spirit enchants on weapons.
    Lolwut? Are you just making things up now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    Most players do engage in pvp, and CC fest or not, it's still more fun than pve..
    I find PvE more fun than PvP, so your statement is incorrect.


    Bad trolling is bad.

  12. #32
    What I thought to be a subtle troll turned out to be a quality shitposter.

    And if you're actually being serious then how come no top PvE or PvP player has "figured out" bleeding hollow is stronger?
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Except if you're playing legion xd
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyoken View Post
    The day I die I want the shaman class developers to lower me into my grave so they can let me down one last time.......

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Selenda View Post
    You are spreading so much false informations, wrong math and stupid ideas about pvp and pve Professor Expert, keep this up it help me start every day with a big smile.
    If you think my math is wrong, why don't you show us the correct math. My math shows you the average haste value gained by warsong over 20 seconds, and that's really all you need to know to decide.

    As a highly experimented Enhancement both pvp and pve i can tell that all your posts are pure madness even if i dont agree every thing that wordup says on guides or here (i think too much sim kill the sim utility).
    Really? Madness? How do you think so? I am simply saying that OVERALL bleeding hollow is the best enchant for enhancement. Warsong may better in certain conditions, but as I already explained, a few seconds out of melee range and its value falls quickly below that of other DPS enchants.

    Comparing MM vs 2k5 rated is fair, since its the high end pvp player vs the high end pve players, more pvpers than pver ?
    We're not talking about "high end", we are talking about the activity that players participate in. Why you pve clowns feel the need to twist the facts around is beyond me. MOST PEOPLE AT MAX LEVEL PARTICIPATE IN PVP. The people who do raids are a very small minority. That means most players who hit 100 do not jump in and start running dungeons or raids, they do battlegrounds, arena or ashran.

    yo 90% of every single player atleast completed LFR and not many less are doing the NM, then now you can compare all the 90% players to the people that are doing RBG/Arena/Ashran, no need to be a genius to tell your statement about pvp is deep, pure, tasty shit, so is your pve conception... no skill required, come on boy, i have a sit for you on my next HM (or i can even go for NM just for you) clean so i can laugh at your performances.
    No, pve does not require skill. You are proving this point.

    And yes i just created an account !!! What i promises myself to never do, bult couldnt resist all this bullshit spread :d
    And yet you have said nothing to the contrary.

    PS : and yea you missed a buff on SS tha last hotfix that didnt buff LL.

    sorry for the english, not my main language.
    Well, according to the notes it was SS, LL and wind strike all buffed 20%. If they didn't buff LL it doesn't change the fact that it hits a lot harder with 1000 extra mastery, and because flame shock resets LL quite a bit, you can use LL more often than SS.

    Forgot to respond to the main subject : the goal in arena is to blow the shit out of the enemy during Ascendance when he has no more def CD or cc available, the only enchant that buff Ascendance is ? guess what ? wohoooo haste enchant... and guess what ? you hit from range during it...
    GUESS WHAT THE ENCHANT IS A PROC. You are talking like you will get the haste procs at exactly the right time, so that you can pop ascendance and benefit from the extra haste. Yea, good luck with that strategy. Clearly you have never set foot in arena...but remember, any level 100 has done pve.

    And if you tell me that Warsong will not proc during it, i will tell you track your enchants procs (but yeah tracking things may be something for pve, pvp need to be vanilla/no addon game, for mens you know (with 250 macros, because more macros = more skill = more keybind = more pgm).
    Even with PPM the proc chance is random, and in pvp a few seconds can decide winning or losing. So yeah, go ahead and use warsong.

    And for the "lignthing shield proc my warsong when i am out of range" this argument is stupid as fuck.
    In pve it never (NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER YOU ARE WRONG STOP ARGUING) happen, and in pvp, you are not here to destroy the guy the second you enter in fight, you have to make him pop def cd, or just wait possible CC that could screw your burst, then your warsong will have 4/5 others procs during the time you really start the real things, this is reality, this is how it works in the real wowlife.
    That's a lot of stupid strung together by some fool who barely speaks english. LS procs the enchants VERY OFTEN in pvp...and in pve, who cares? It's pve. Don't talk about it like it's something serious.

    When you get cced out of range, when you get kited, there is no advantage for BH, 0, nada, just no :
    you are out of range,
    you are doing nothing but runing and spaming purge/def cd, los etc,
    BH will not help at all, who the fuck care about the damage of frosts shock ?????? because thats the only utility here in range.
    Warsong may help you cast a flash faster, unleash cd is reduced, frost shock cd is reduced (you know the things help you to gap close)
    Warsong last longuer than BH, lets the case you gett cced and kited like a boss ? you go back to the target BH is gone, but nop Warsong still up even if its not big and not for a long time, it is a buff, vs 0 utility from BH.
    and the best for the end, Warsong buff a shitload your elementals, like miles above a shitty BH proc.
    Wrong, sir dumbalot, BH buff stays at 500 for its entire duration, so if you do get CC'd for 6-8 seconds, you still have 4-6 seconds to deal fully buffed attacks. Two lava lash at 110%, a shock, elemental blast, LB plus if you are using fire ele that damage will be buffed 10% too.

    WARSONG LASTS LONGER BECAUSE IT TICKS DOWN. You lose 100 haste every 2 sec (i.e. per 1 gcd). Because of the way it works, if you miss the first 4 seconds of warsong proc, your effective haste from the entire buff if you stay on target for the last 16 seconds is 450.

    450 < 500 ... can you math that?

    Quote Originally Posted by stiglet View Post
    Lolwut? Are you just making things up now?

    I find PvE more fun than PvP, so your statement is incorrect.

    Bad trolling is bad.
    You are a bad troll indeed...so what's your play? Keep on trollin?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Razecog View Post
    What I thought to be a subtle troll turned out to be a quality shitposter.

    And if you're actually being serious then how come no top PvE or PvP player has "figured out" bleeding hollow is stronger?
    Nope, there's only two trolls here...you and engrish over there. Don't you have a rating to buy?

    A lot of enhancers use bleeding hollow, and even more in general. I don't know wtf you're talking about. LOL And again with this "top player" garbage, like you are so pathetic that you cannot form your own thought and try your own thing - always copying whoever you think is "top".

  14. #34
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Expert View Post
    Now go back to your enhance shaman that has dual spirit enchants on weapons.
    You still haven't explained this.

  15. #35
    The troll is real, atleast i tried, nothing to proove to anyone so i am going back to my business, keep feeding the troll pls, so funny, need to keep an eye on this amasing guy.

  16. #36
    I hope you are trolling Professor Expert...

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Sybor View Post
    I hope you are trolling Professor Expert...
    Nope, he's the master of enhancement shamans and Werdup is just following the guides... Wait... Werdup wrote the fucking guides.

  18. #38
    I suggest you to look at his other posts, literaly hilarious (i recommend the one where blizzard intentionally destroy wow to make more money).

    Keep the troll strong.

  19. #39
    Prof expert probably goes and asks freshly dinged 100s what enchants are best for PVP, hence why he comments about using double spirit enchants as enhance. I know when I want data about what is performing well in the top brackets of pvp/pve, I always ask the LFR champion and the solo queue BG master.

  20. #40
    Can't understand why you'd invest time and effort in this guy who saves a tank's life using primal elementalist, who thinks pvp'ers are superior to pve'ers and who uses an academic title to get any credibility on an interwebs game forum smug alert .

    oh and nice one to even suggest the rank 1 on the ladder of the hardest region is boosted... It's clearly a new name we have never seen before in past seasons

    On topic Enchant Weapon - Elemental Force pre 90 is imo best, very cheap, scales with mastery, many procs and never wasted. Things die faster than any stat proc lasts.

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