Why are Americans so skeptical of social programs and so vocal about it?

[Sylreick]

Of course. The whole idea of the American Dream doesn't help things. The idea that anyone can make it big and the super rich are super deserving of being rich and should be protected, while the poor should be spit on because they obviously don't deserve to not be poor since ANYONE can be rich if they work hard enough.

Yep, that's the "temporarily poor millionaire" mentality at work.

[babyback]

As a US citizen who've lived a big crunk of my life in Sweden I can tell you that most of it boils down to taxes.

There is a huge hate towards paying taxes and many doesnt want to pay tax money for someone elses benefit. Thats why the infrastructure is so bad in the US for example.

Also socialism is the same as communism in an un-educated 'Muricans eyes and there are many of them.

[Izalla]

Yep, that's the "temporarily poor millionaire" mentality at work.

There was a John Oliver episode that was talking about how people promote the idea that "there are no such things and haves and have-nots in America, there are the haves, and the soon-to-haves!"

[Bakis]

USSR communism has no relation to European Socialism. It doesn't really have any relation to "proper" communism.

Problem with that is that most americans dont know that. I think you would be amazed how little the average american knows about things outside the US.
And in a sense it is perfectly reasonable, they are a super power, a huge country and econmy that really dont have to bother too much with 'others'.

Go ask people in NY and Times Squre if you like, What is socialism? and they will stutter out something along the lines ranging from Dont know -> some odd answer/totally ignorant.

[Izalla]

As a US citizen who've lived a big crunk of my life in Sweden I can tell you that most of it boils down to taxes.

There is a huge hate towards paying taxes and many does want to pay tax money for someone elses benefit. Thats why the infrastructure is so bad in the US for example.

Also socialism is the same as communism in an un-educated 'Muricans eyes and there are many of them.

The funny thing about that is how the USA had a revolution because of taxes, and then immediately created their own taxes.

[Jeezy911]

Europeans get the wrong impression of the American poor, most have the ability to break out of poverty thanks to US wealth and social programs, in fact 90% of the population have a TV and a phone now. Basically if you really want a job, you can get one. You then work hard and get educated and move up the capitalistic ladder, that's how the US system works, and it works well. The problem is about 30% of America now have an entitlement mentality, they don't want to work for wealth, they want the system to support them while they don't work, never actually interested in getting a job and moving up. The people who do work hard are then expected to pay for these lazy leeches and show sympathy because they are "poor". I'm personally tired of paying close to 45% in taxes to help people that don't want to help themselves.

[Altrec]

Title is pretty much it.

Was wondering people's opinions on why Americans seem to be vehemently opposed to European style socialism (mostly free market, government support for the poorest, low cost healthcare and education, much higher minimum wages) when pretty much all data points to European nations having a much higher average quality of life?

It boils down to wanting to be left alone for the most part, and we want to be allowed to do what we want and be rewarded with the fruits of our labors without most of it being funneled away to someone else's pet project. We don't mind helping people out and getting them back on their feet, but in most cases we don't want to be helping the same people out indefinitely. As for quality of life it is very good here depending on the metrics used. If the metrics you use have socialized programs as high value then countries with those programs are going to have a higher quality of life rating even though in reality the quality of life really isn't all that different than it is here.

[Saucexorzski]

Life is taking energy from other life to sustain your own. It's not the rainbows and unicorn bullshit most of humanity deems it to be. it's hard and should be hard. Time on this planet is limited, each individual has so much. to lay claim to others work, others time, is to prey upon them. it's the natural cycle of those who have not to try and claim the rewards of those who have, and as such it's normal that those preyed upon would fight it.

[Adam Jensen]

The cold war propaganda. Since Joe McCarthy, we've been irrationally afraid of anything even remotely "socialist" and so people, mostly the fucking boomers, seem to think that if we get something nice and socialist like a national healthcare system like Britain or Canada (or most of the First World and a significant chunk of the second world . . .) has, that we'll all become pinko commies in a totalitarian commie dystopia like the Soviet Union.

That or they bitch about a small hike in taxes because they're blind to the benefit they get from it.

[Izalla]

Europeans get the wrong impression of the American poor, most have the ability to break out of poverty thanks to US wealth and social programs, in fact 90% of the population have a TV and a phone now. Basically if you really want a job, you can get one. You then work hard and get educated and move up the capitalistic ladder, that's how the US system works, and it works well. The problem is about 30% of America now have an entitlement mentality, they don't want to work for wealth, they want the system to support them while they don't work, never actually interested in getting a job and moving up. The people who do work hard are then expected to pay for these lazy leeches and show sympathy because they are "poor". I'm personally tired of paying close to 45% in taxes to help people that don't want to help themselves.

The fact that you even used the word leeches like I made a joke about on the last page makes me sad =/

[Rukh]

The funny thing about that is how the USA had a revolution because of taxes, and then immediately created their own taxes.

No. Taxation without representation, not taxation.

[Deleted]

Socialism and Communism are feared/hated in American due to McCarthyism.
Also, social programs are frown upon, because acknowledging them, or worst, relying on them, would mean you have failed in life.
Admitting weakness? We can't have that.

[Adam Jensen]

USSR communism has no relation to European Socialism. It doesn't really have any relation to "proper" communism (although as far as I'm aware there's never been a successful national communist programme anywhere).

Yeah but the Boomers don't see that.

[Elegiac]

Europeans get the wrong impression of the American poor, most have the ability to break out of poverty thanks to US wealth and social programs, in fact 90% of the population have a TV and a phone now. Basically if you really want a job, you can get one. You then work hard and get educated and move up the capitalistic ladder, that's how the US system works, and it works well. The problem is about 30% of America now have an entitlement mentality, they don't want to work for wealth, they want the system to support them while they don't work, never actually interested in getting a job and moving up. The people who do work hard are then expected to pay for these lazy leeches and show sympathy because they are "poor". I'm personally tired of paying close to 45% in taxes to help people that don't want to help themselves.

It couldn't possibly be the fact the price of consumer goods has dropped while the cost of things like healthcare and education has skyrocketed.

Social mobility is crap in the US compared to most of the developed world. Your narrative is based on popular mythology, nothing more.

- - - Updated - - -

Life is taking energy from other life to sustain your own. It's not the rainbows and unicorn bullshit most of humanity deems it to be. it's hard and should be hard. Time on this planet is limited, each individual has so much. to lay claim to others work, others time, is to prey upon them. it's the natural cycle of those who have not to try and claim the rewards of those who have, and as such it's normal that those preyed upon would fight it.

Did I mention actually believing that Social Darwinism is a thing is also an American problem?

[Izalla]

No. Taxation without representation, not taxation.

The early people didn't like it much, though it made George Washington a ton of money

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion

[Elegiac]

It boils down to wanting to be left alone for the most part, and we want to be allowed to do what we want and be rewarded with the fruits of our labors without most of it being funneled away to someone else's pet project.

> Irrational obsession with individualism and a failure to understand there is such a thing as society.

[Endus]

It boils down to wanting to be left alone for the most part, and we want to be allowed to do what we want and be rewarded with the fruits of our labors without most of it being funneled away to someone else's pet project.

The problem with this view is twofold;

1> You can't be "left alone". You're a part of society. That means you have duties and obligations to that same society that you live within and enjoy the benefits thereof. If you truly believed in the "left alone" part of your ideology, you'd carve your own livelihood out of the backwoods somewhere far from society, and do everything you could to refrain from accepting any of the benefits of greater society, including pretty much any product or service you did not manufacture or produce with your own personal labor. Trying to be "left alone" when it comes to your duties and obligations, while still enjoying the benefits and advantages of greater society, is a deliberate attempt to enjoy precisely the kind of indefinite assistance that you're projecting onto others.

2> The taxes you owe are not the "fruit of your labors". They are the fruit of the government's labors. Which is why you owe that amount to said government.

[randomnamegenerator16]

Because socialism is a pile of stinking crap, that's why.

[Adam Jensen]

The funny thing about that is how the USA had a revolution because of taxes, and then immediately created their own taxes.

Taxation is a necessity for a working government. Someone has to pay for all the bridges, public schools, roads, military, police, firemen, etc, etc, etc. Taxes are a fee for living in a civilized nation rather than, say, Somalia. The colonial complaint about taxes wasn't really about taxes. It was about representation. They felt they had no say in the way Great Britain was taxing the colonies and it pissed them off.

What makes me angry is how these anti-tax conservatives tend to also claim to be patriots. Oh nice patriotism, showing how much you support your country by deliberately avoiding paying taxes. I also like how they call it "theft." No. Use of services without paying for them is theft. Don't want to pay taxes? Go live on an island somewhere.

[Vermicious]

In one sentence? socialism = communism to the majority.

Pretty much this.

COMMUNISM IS FROM THE DEVIL/SATAN (and Socialism was considered exactly the same) was the message given through much of the 20th century, so most people over the age of 40 or so still believe so, even as they benefit from Medicare and Social Security.