Blood Elf "twirl" jump for double jump.

[Cooper]

You are extrapolating things from my text that are neither said, nor even remotely implied. Basic reading comprehension isn't difficult, and I'm beginning to question your mental capacity and even your basic sanity in light of how random this statement was.

LOL, super classy there, guy. I'm not the one ranting on an internet forum about a fantasy character in a video game doing a pirouette when he jumps, and I'm especially not the one ranting on an internet forum about a fantasy character in a video game automatically doing a pirouette every time he double jumps when it is not even certain that is something that is actually going to happen.

And you want to talk about basic reading comprehension? It is INCREDIBLY obvious when you write things like

-The Blood Elf normal jump proc, is this.... kind of really weak looking ballerina twirl, for both sexes

(emphasis mine)

and

because seriously I'd rather roll a Night Elf (when the entirety of my account is Horde) than be subjected to nothing but that dainty, pixy twirl animation for my double jump.

(emphasis mine)

and

There's just something incredibly unsettling about a tattooed out, horn and wings half demon warrior, blindly charging into combat with the fury of 1000 summoned demons...... and then skipping around, doing Ballet at his enemies.....

that you feel emasculated by the Blood Elf pirouette. You refer to it as a "ballerina twirl" twice and a "dainty, pixy twirl" once in the space of three paragraphs, all of which are feminine characterizations, and given that you continuously describe the pirouette as a "Ballerina twirl", despite the fact that men also do ballet, you obviously think the "ballet" in "skipping around, doing Ballet at his enemies....." is a feminine activity too. "Skipping" is generally considered girlish as well.

Shall I break it down further? Okay.

"The Blood Elf normal jump proc, is this.... kind of really weak looking ballerina twirl, for both sexes." If it's for both sexes, there is no reason to point that out after saying "The Blood Elf normal jump proc" as that would cover both sexes in itself. So the only reason to point out the "really weak looking ballerina twirl" is for both sexes is if it would be acceptable for one sex, but not the other. Given your rampant feminization of the pirouette, it is obvious for which gender you think the "really weak looking ballerina twirl" is acceptable - and which it is not.

"...because seriously I'd rather roll a Night Elf (when the entirety of my account is Horde) than be subjected to nothing but that dainty, pixy twirl animation for my double jump." Subjected to? Really? As if "that dainty, pixy twirl animation" is torture. Yet you don't say "subjected to nothing but that impractical twirl animation" or anything similar that would tie into what your cover reasoning is. No. "That dainty, pixy twirl animation." It's not the impracticality that you find torturous; it's the femininity you perceive in the pirouette.

Then you continue on: "I'd also add, outside of pure aesthetics, there is some other reasoning for this:" So clearly your main concern and your main argument - you did lead with it, after all - is "pure aesthetics", in other words, the perceived femininity of the pirouette, and then you decided to tack on some arguments about real life combat that have nothing to do with a video game set in a fantasy world, and especially not one where "real life combat practicalities" have gotten exactly zero consideration from the beginning. There's also the fact that there is NOTHING so far to indicate that the Double Jump has anything to do with combat and is meant simply as a class perk, considering the extent of what was said about it at GamesCom was that "it's really cool and handy to be able to get over obstacles that no other class can get over." So, again, not only is a fantasy video game not real life, Double Jump hasn't even been presented as a combat ability; talking about "combat practicalities" is irrelevant.

And it is also worth noting that despite all your supposed concern for realistic combat practicalities, you make no mention of the fact that Demon Hunters will use - and be restricted to ONLY using - Warglaives, arguably the most impractical weapon in the whole WarCraft universe.

But they look cool - and "masculine." So they don't get a rant.

That's just a "basic reading comprehension" analysis of your original post. That's not even getting into posts you make later in the thread, such as

I just have the view that a battle hardened, half demon, killing machine, who's spent years of his supposed life training to be the pinnacle of Demonic but-kickery, will charge into battle and start practicing his ballet moves. It's as nonsensical to me as it would be seeing "Death Knights" defeating enemies with the powers of "love, friendship, rainbows, and hugs" or the giant titanic lord of all demonic forces in the universe (Sargeras) being named "Fluffycuddlebottom"

in which you reiterate your emphasis on the undesirability of perceived "non-masculine" traits by equating "ballet moves" (ie, the Blood Elf pirouette) to ""Death Knights" defeating enemies with the powers of "love, friendship, rainbows, and hugs".

It is extremely obvious to anybody with "basic reading comprehension" skills what your actual complaint against the pirouette is.

Oh, and P.S.: If you can't grasp the relevance of "-extremely serious- and dedicated" professionals like Jean-Claude Van Damme, Bruce Lee, Michelle Yeoh, (and let's throw in Elvis Stojko, who had a black belt in karate in addition to being a Two-Time Olympic Silver Medalist in Figure Skating) improving their own craft by drawing inspiration and abilities from outside their own field, instead of being "distracted" and lessened by it, that speaks to your own mental capacity, not mine.

Here, I'll spell it out for you, since you obviously think ballet is too feminine to be "badass" or "cool" or whatever: studying ballet didn't make any of those people less badass; it made them more. The Pirouette doesn't make a character less badass just because people like you feel emasculated by it.

[Linri]

720 degree spins inc lol *gets dizzy and falls*

[The Archmage]

I think this sexuality discussion is off the point (and kinda boring).

To me, it has nothing to do with being "feminine" or not, it's about iconographic or not. Demon Hunter is a dark themed class, with fel energies, horns and demonic powers all around. The BE jump looks a little too gracious to fit that concept, to the point of diminishing it. It's like seeing Ozzy Osbourne or Alice Cooper doing that kind of move to show off... It might happen, there's nothing wrong with it, but it fits them temathically less than a headbanging.

It's all about "visuals" and what fits the class lore and theme, and what goes against it. Nothing to do with sexuality or supposed utility in a real fight: it's a videogame after all, and a funny "wierd" one at that.

[Drosul]

I still don't think I quite understand you, though. This part seems to say, "A world needs to have internally consistent rules that are 'broken' in ways that make sense--like by clearly explained magic that has its own rules." I fully agree with that. However, your personal questionnaire afterwards doesn't elucidate any rules that the twirl breaks, it just mostly conveys that you don't think someone would choose to do that in battle, that it wouldn't be a good idea. That may be true, but "not a great idea tactically" is a lot different from "breaks the fundamental rules of the world."

And, honestly, if your real position is "I don't think fighters would choose to do that and therefore I don't like it," that's a much weaker position, because it's purely in the province of opinion. Not that I begrudge you your opinion, but it's not as compelling as "Blizzard shouldn't do things that break its own world's rules."

Your opinion-based argument (the "I don't like it, because it seems like a bad idea in battle" one) is the one I was responding to when I said that WoW already doesn't have realistic battles and entirely realistic combat animations. There are a number of in-combat animations that I could ask, "Do I think a real fighter would choose to do it that way? / Is this the most efficient way to get it done?" and come away with "No" answers. The reason is because WoW is stylized. They purposely give away some realism and "economy of movement" in order to create a flashier, quirkier aesthetic. I think the blood elf twirl jump fits into that aesthetic.

I had missed your reply. Thank you, for being able to articulate your perspective in both a polite and rational manner. You even bring up some fair points in here.

I still don't agree that the move would fit, on account of my doubts that it is any a way a maneuver consistent with the characterization of either male or female Demon Hunters as they currently exist in lore, or that the maneuver in any way constitutes a believable movement, consistent with those of a highly trained, and battle hardened warrior. You do have a point, in bringing up the existence of other animations that also go directly against common sense. One off the top of my head is that the undead characters, carry their hands and weapons extremely low, and stand nearly completely squared up against their opponents, which, would make them practically defenseless. The difference is, those same animations are at least consistent with a zombie archetype. I simply cannot make that same suspension of disbelief for the Blood Elf Twirl, even if I where to presume that every Blood Elf was a highly trained Ballet practitioner (or I suppose a freestyle skateboarder/snowboarder/skiier/parkour enthusiast would also work), because they also have to be highly trained warriors, who are highly agile, and likely highly intelligent....while exposing your back to an opponent is one of the egregious and fundamental mistakes a person can make, in entirety of combat. That is not an opinion, but rather is a fundamental fact, by virtue of human *or humanoid, in this case* anatomy making it impossible to see behind you, or position your arms or legs in such a manner that can mount anything resembling an intelligent defense. It would be completely and totally out of character from a highly trained, highly agile and highly intelligent warrior archetype, to repeatedly make that level of error, and at best still entirely pointless for a ballet practitioner who suddenly found themselves in combat. There simply isn't an archetype/situation where I can reconcile it making any sense, as a move that is consistently done, hence my disdain for the animation.

Also, fwiw, it's also a very similar reason as to why I absolutely loathe the BE-Female shield animation, while in combat (She leans forward with her weapon, and holds the shield almost behind her, defeating the entire purpose of holding the shield at all). An animation I found annoying enough to abandon my BE-Paladin over.

As an unrelated aside, I don't think Blizzard will actually make blood elf double-jumps always "twirl." I actually think they'll probably give them a new animation for it but if they retain the twirl, it'll probably remain a random proc. Merely speculation, of course.

This, I believe, would be the best outcome, and my primary goal/hope in mind, when creating this thread initially...


And now moving specifically from a reply to you, into a statement towards the thread at large for a second: One of the things that has been brought up multiple times in this thread, is the questioning of the timing of this thread, specifically that with regards to how far away Legion release is, and that we do not yet even have confirmation of the Blood Elf double jump animation. I'd like to address that, and perhaps illustrate the importance of even having this discussion.

Part of the reason that this thread even exists, when talking about a hypothetical animation for an ability is simply because this is likely also the only time within which said animation has a decent shot of getting changed (or prevented outright). Once the game enters Beta, very few changes are implemented on the side of animation, as the majority of the focus shifts to mechanical changes, numbers tuning, and bug fixes. This thread exists in what is likely the largest WoW demon hunter forum currently in existence, simply because it is currently the best and only real way to send feedback, for the game in development.

[Cooper]

I think this sexuality discussion is off the point (and kinda boring).

To me, it has nothing to do with being "feminine" or not, it's about iconographic or not. Demon Hunter is a dark themed class, with fel energies, horns and demonic powers all around. The BE jump looks a little too gracious to fit that concept, to the point of diminishing it. It's like seeing Ozzy Osbourne or Alice Cooper doing that kind of move to show off... It might happen, there's nothing wrong with it, but it fits them temathically less than a headbanging.

It's all about "visuals" and what fits the class lore and theme, and what goes against it. Nothing to do with sexuality or supposed utility in a real fight: it's a videogame after all, and a funny "wierd" one at that.

There's more to Demon Hunter than just "omg badass demon-guy." Like being a highly agile, lightly armored warrior, which fits right in with being graceful - like a dancer. There's a reason so many high-level martial artists have studied ballet.

[The Archmage]

There's more to Demon Hunter than just "omg badass demon-guy." Like being a highly agile, lightly armored warrior, which fits right in with being graceful - like a dancer. There's a reason so many high-level martial artists have studied ballet.

I disagree, and actually so does Blizzard. Have you ever played HotS? And seen Illidan in action? He is VERY agile, but there is nothing graceful about it: he jumps in your face, being able to completely moonsault both player characters and structures and basically DEVOURS you (or the structures :P) with his warglaives. With "The Hunt" he can reach you wherever you are running with his warglaives and shredding at you. It's effective, it's agile, but it's also "brutal", if you know what i mean, and it fits perfectly the character theme.

"Agile Warrior", in my book, does not necesseraly mean "Martial Artist". Demon Hunters are not Monks. On Blizzard's own words, Demon Hunters are all about Aggression, and aggression is not graceful. So much so that if the monk was the class with double jump i would have found the twirl more than appropriate.

[Cooper]

I disagree, and actually so does Blizzard. Have you ever played HotS? And seen Illidan in action? He is VERY agile, but there is nothing graceful about it: he jumps in your face, being able to completely moonsault both player characters and structures and basically DEVOURS you (or the structures :P) with his warglaives. With "The Hunt" he can reach you wherever you are running with his warglaives and shredding at you. It's effective, it's agile, but it's also "brutal", if you know what i mean, and it fits perfectly the character theme.

"Agile Warrior", in my book, does not necesseraly mean "Martial Artist". Demon Hunters are not Monks. On Blizzard's own words, Demon Hunters are all about Aggression, and aggression is not graceful. So much so that if the monk was the class with double jump i would have found the twirl more than appropriate.

Really? You're going to argue there's nothing graceful about the character who is constantly flipping around and has "Evasion" for a core ability? Nothing you described is mutually exclusive with being graceful. In fact, Illidan is the most graceful (and dancer-like!) character in HotS, or at least was until Kharazim, who I haven't seen much of. He's certainly more graceful than Chen, who lumbers around the battlefield like a drunken oaf.

Something can be simultaneously graceful and brutal. Ever heard of Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring"? It's a ballet - about human sacrifice and rape. It is so aggressive - and that is often the word that is used - that it sparked a riot at its first showing in Paris.

[The Archmage]

Really? You're going to argue there's nothing graceful about the character who is constantly flipping around and has "Evasion" for a core ability? Nothing you described is mutually exclusive with being graceful. In fact, Illidan is the most graceful (and dancer-like!) character in HotS, or at least was until Kharazim, who I haven't seen much of. He's certainly more graceful than Chen, who lumbers around the battlefield like a drunken oaf.

Something can be simultaneously graceful and brutal. Ever heard of Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring"? It's a ballet - about human sacrifice and rape. It is so aggressive - and that is often the word that is used - that it sparked a riot at its first showing in Paris.

Evasion is an ability that makes him do absolutely nothing "visually". He is flipping around but, if you call that "gracious" (as in Ballet gracious) we have very different concepts of what gracious means. Which i am absolutely fine with, by the way, but i guess makes this discussion rather pointless.

And i can see the use of "aggressive" in describing a ballet, referring to powerful evocative movements that are focused on representing (more often than not) an intense and sometimes violent emotional state (obviously, since it's a play).
But it takes also a completely different meaning when used to represent/describe a guy that trains to murder the most powerful evil beings in the lore at the expense of his own humanity wielding bloothirsty ginormous twin blades. And bloodthirsty murder is a concept that is very difficult to accustom to "gracious".

[Cooper]

Evasion is an ability that makes him do absolutely nothing "visually". He is flipping around but, if you call that "gracious" (as in Ballet gracious) we have very different concepts of what gracious means. Which i am absolutely fine with, by the way, but i guess makes this discussion rather pointless.

And i can see the use of "aggressive" in describing a ballet, referring to powerful evocative movements that are focused on representing (more often than not) an intense and sometimes violent emotional state (obviously, since it's a play).
But it takes also a completely different meaning when used to represent/describe a guy that trains to murder the most powerful evil beings in the lore at the expense of his own humanity wielding bloothirsty ginormous twin blades. And bloodthirsty murder is a concept that is very difficult to accustom to "gracious".

"Gracious" and "graceful" are two entirely different and unrelated words. "Gracious" has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Here's a synonym for "graceful": "fluid." And if you think Illidan's movements in HotS aren't fluid, then you're either blind or being intentionally obtuse.

Another example of aggression and grace combined: Darth Maul in "The Phantom Menace."

There is absolutely nothing that makes aggression and gracefulness mutually exclusive. In fact, given their lack of armor, reliance on avoiding hits, and complete disadvantage when it comes to reach given their chosen weapons, a Demon Hunter without grace - one who wastes movement, or is clumsy, or tries to just brute force his way to victory - is probably a dead Demon Hunter.

[Dartz1979]

I suppose I'm primarily looking for support here, in the hopes that this dark future I potentially see ahead for BE Demon Hunters never comes to pass, but any opinions on the topic are welcome... I tried posting about this in the WoW general forums, but generally only received troll responses, because well, it was the WoW general forum... Perhaps in a DH specific forum, there might be some more serious discussion.

-In the Demon Hunter preview video from Blizzcon, the Night Elf Demon Hunter double jump had a front flip animation. This animation is identical to the Night Elf front flip animation, that occasionally procs on a normal jump.

-The Blood Elf normal jump proc, is this.... kind of really weak looking ballerina twirl, for both sexes (frankly the male jump animation is horrible in totality, as the character doesn't actually push off the ground, so much as just picks his legs up, but that's another topic).

I'm hoping to get some support, in order to make the BE-Demon Hunter double jump animation also into a front flip (the animation for BE is already there, as part of the monk-roll), or at the very least something more sensical than the... Ballerina twirl.

because seriously I'd rather roll a Night Elf (when the entirety of my account is Horde) than be subjected to nothing but that dainty, pixy twirl animation for my double jump. There's just something incredibly unsettling about a tattooed out, horn and wings half demon warrior, blindly charging into combat with the fury of 1000 summoned demons...... and then skipping around, doing Ballet at his enemies.....

I'd also add, outside of pure aesthetics, there is some other reasoning for this:

IRL fighting:
A front flip, actually has an in combat purpose, despite not being an attack.... It accomplishes a few things, actually....
1. Evades a ground based attack, via act of jumping.
2. Tuck and roll reduces target profile drastically, making you a harder target to hit
3. The roll effect is also brought into play as it relates to "break falls" which, if you've ever done a martial art involving grappling, is something -MASSIVELY- important skill to learn.... Basically it's teaching someone to fall in a controlled manner, and avoid injury via redirecting momentum into a roll as a preferable alternative to landing flat on your back and ending up in a wheelchair. Judo in particular will heavily emphasize breakfalling.

A ballerina twirl, on the other hand.... doesn't really do much
+You do leave the ground, so you technically are dodging a low attack, as with any jump.
-But you don't reduce your target profile AT ALL
-You completely expose your back to your target
-You have absolutely no methodology to transition into a "break fall"

This is why -EVERY SINGLE- highly agile, melee combat archetypes in Comics/TV/Movies do front flips.... It's also why you don't see them twirling around like they are going for gold in figure skating. Even the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, who's shells would actually provide them with a solid defense during one of those twirls, still constantly use front flips, and never use twirls.

So, this is the part where I'd like to see some feedback, in the hopes that we'd have enough support, to pre-empt any design decisions about this. If you are against the twirl, please post some feedback.... If you are for the twirl, also please post some feedback, but also please include some reasoning for your choice...

i like the female blood elfs they just so sexy hot

[Amnaught]

As a Blood Elf, I like my twirly jump. Here's to hoping you fail.

[The Archmage]

"Gracious" and "graceful" are two entirely different and unrelated words. "Gracious" has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Here's a synonym for "graceful": "fluid." And if you think Illidan's movements in HotS aren't fluid, then you're either blind or being intentionally obtuse.

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/graceful

I am sorry, but i don't see "fluid" as listed in synonimes of "graceful".

The definition states: "having grace of form, manner, movement, or speech.". So graceful means: to have grace.

Let's see what "grace" is then.

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/grace

I don't see a Demon Hunter having "elegance / beauty of form, manner, motion, or action" and his actions as "appealing" or using "proper behavior"

Now please explain to me how this guy



can be represented by having "elegance / beauty of form, manner, motion, or action" and his actions as "appealing" or using "proper behavior".

Also, i don't see a point in calling me an "obtuse" since your opinion is not really more valuable then mine and you are clearly clinging on semantics due to the lack of other substantial arguments (and without really adding nothing to your advantage in this case).

The point, anyway, is not what it is TRUE or NOT. It's not what WORKS IN REALITY and what DOESEN'T. This is a videogame. It's what visually represents the class, the concept. We are talking about ANIMATIONS here.

[Cooper]

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/graceful

I am sorry, but i don't see "fluid" as listed in synonimes of "graceful".

Sigh.

It's the very first thing that shows up when one googles "graceful":

grace·ful
ˈɡrāsfəl/
adjective
adjective: graceful

having or showing grace or elegance.
"she was a tall girl, slender and graceful"
synonyms: elegant, fluid, fluent, natural, neat;

It's the first thing that shows up if you use Bing, too. You literally had to ignore it.

Not good enough? Want to use the Merriam-Webster definition?

graceful
adjective grace·ful \ˈgrās-fəl\

: moving in a smooth and attractive way

: having a smooth and pleasing shape or style

Oh, what's this? Merriam-Webster's synonyms for "graceful":

Related to GRACEFUL

Synonyms
agile, featly, feline, gracile, light, light-footed (also light-foot), lightsome, lissome (also lissom), lithe, lithesome, nimble, spry

And I would like to add, in HotS if you play Illidan as a hyper-aggressive brute who just charges in who doesn't use his agility and nimbleness to get in and out of combat at the right times, you die. A lot. Guy is squishy as hell.

The point, anyway, is not what it is TRUE or NOT. It's not what WORKS IN REALITY and what DOESEN'T. This is a videogame. It's what visually represents the class, the concept. We are talking about ANIMATIONS here.

This is true. And Demon Hunters are agile, light-footed (look at Illidan's ninja-run!), nimble with a fluid and graceful combat style.

The pirouette is fine.

Also, i don't see a point in calling me an "obtuse" since your opinion is not really more valuable then mine and you are clearly clinging on semantics due to the lack of other substantial arguments (and without really adding nothing to your advantage in this case).

My opinion actually is more valuable than yours since it is based on what is true, rather than what I wish were true. If you think my arguments aren't substantial, than it's only because of your own cognitive dissonance: your refusal to believe or accept any evidence - even if it is staring you in the face, like Illidan's fluid animations in HotS or "fluid" being a synonym for "graceful" right at the top of the Google search - that a Demon Hunter could be anything other than some super-macho killer that headbangs and bites the heads off of chickens.

[marioyd821]

OP prepare yourself for the only real counter argument you have seen yet. All your points about why it doesnt make sense in combat are pointless bc jumping in WoW is a non combat move. You cant jump over a fireball or spin kick or any other attack unless it could also be dodged by a normal jump no matter how hard you try. And all that nonsense about the landing, well never in the history of WoW has a NE taken less fall damage bc the jump flip proced. Its purpose is movement and the jump procs are purely asthetic. Even BE dks do the spin. And btw any point you were making about showing your back is also pointless bc a full rotation of the body on either axis, be it a spin or a flip, would expose the back and by that logic the only real worthwhile rotation would be a cartwheel. So please stop trying to come up with lies about why the spin must go when you really just don't like the way it looks. If you dont like BE jump so much that you wont play the race then guess what? No one is forcing you. But in regards to some form of support I do hope that we get a cool animation for the second jump like a little wing flap or something bc honesty that would just be super lazy of blizz to just have us literally jump twice. And of course the logical arguement for that is that second jump is meant to be a feature of the DH class so make something class specific. You dont see every race of mage with different casting styles. The first jump should still proc spin though.

[OreoLover]

Twirling will definetly ruin immersion.

I just found that so humorous, thank you lol.

[Drosul]

My opinion actually is more valuable than yours since it is based on what is true, rather than what I wish were true. If you think my arguments aren't substantial, than it's only because of your own cognitive dissonance: your refusal to believe or accept any evidence -

The hypocrisy of this statement, is astounding.... when you continually go out of your way to ignore the simple truth that the pirouette not only provides zero benefit in combat and/or provide any actual, logical reasoning answering the simple question of "Why would the character do that, let alone do it consistently?".... I don't care if all the Blood Elves have studied ballet, I don't care if Bruce Lee did ballet too....it doesn't answer the question at the crux of this:

"Why the hell, would a Demon Hunter always do a 360* spin on all of their double jumps?" or more specifically: "What purpose would it serve?"

Answer that question, or kindly leave my thread, because frankly I'm tired of your incessant trolling and attempts at derailment. Because from I stand, the only thing such an animation would accomplish, would be to establish that the character performing it is actually either stupid, or just actually terrible at the one thing they are claiming to specialize in....

It's a very similar issue in my mind, to the Blood Elf Female 1h/shield "hostile" animation I referenced earlier (and actually one I made threads about during TBC beta)... The character holds the shield in a manner that makes it almost impossible to actually block anything.... leaving you with an animation that forces you to assume your character is mentally deficient/damaged or just outright bad at using a shield (which in itself encompasses 2/3rds of their specializations). I'd like to avoid a repeat of that large a failure in animation/design making its way onto a class defining feature, for an expansion defining class, particularly when this expansion is going to either save, or completely bury this franchise.

[Cooper]

Answer that question, or kindly leave my thread, because frankly I'm tired of your incessant trolling and attempts at derailment

Disagreeing with you and calling you out for your mendacity is not trolling. Nor do you get to decide who posts in "your" thread.

[The Archmage]

Sigh.

It's the very first thing that shows up when one googles "graceful":



It's the first thing that shows up if you use Bing, too. You literally had to ignore it.

Not good enough? Want to use the Merriam-Webster definition?




Oh, what's this? Merriam-Webster's synonyms for "graceful":



And I would like to add, in HotS if you play Illidan as a hyper-aggressive brute who just charges in who doesn't use his agility and nimbleness to get in and out of combat at the right times, you die. A lot. Guy is squishy as hell.



This is true. And Demon Hunters are agile, light-footed (look at Illidan's ninja-run!), nimble with a fluid and graceful combat style.

The pirouette is fine.



My opinion actually is more valuable than yours since it is based on what is true, rather than what I wish were true. If you think my arguments aren't substantial, than it's only because of your own cognitive dissonance: your refusal to believe or accept any evidence - even if it is staring you in the face, like Illidan's fluid animations in HotS or "fluid" being a synonym for "graceful" right at the top of the Google search - that a Demon Hunter could be anything other than some super-macho killer that headbangs and bites the heads off of chickens.

I used wordreference, which is a little more accurate than typing the word on google (that shows results extrapolated from "user made" dictionaries and such) but fine, whatever.

I'll give one more try and then give up, since semantics are a hole that is very difficult to get out of (and used by people that has nothing less to add than hiding behind words, but that is just my opinion of course)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9keMBIyPnA

This is a beautiful fight scene. The embodiment of "grace" in a fight.

Can you picture now Illidan fighting that way? Do you think it is a correct way to display the character? The concept behind it? If so, i am glad you don't do videogames.
I can see why you point out that an "agile" warrior is graceful, but Demon Hunters are not "simply" agile warriors. Rogues, Hunters and Monks are ALL agile warriors. Agility is not what makes them unique.
What makes a demon hunter unique is his demonic nature. THAT is what you need to emphasize, that is what makes the concept of the class. Thus, all his abilities, his visuals and even his ability names have to tend towards that direction.
Take for example the abilities we have seen (related to the video).
Fel Rush: would you call their moves "rush"?
Chaos Strike: would you call one of the techniques shown in the videos i posted like that? Does the name represent them?
Chaos Nova: same as strike
Vengeful Retreat: this is even better. It is definetly an agile move, even graceful... Why they did not decide to call it "graceful retreat" then? The guy tells it straight away: "of course, if a Demon Hunter is going to retreat, he's gonna do so "vengefully".

All has to fit the concept behind the class.
A Monk has abilities like Ascendance, Meditation, Dampen Harm, Diffuse Magic... can you see the concept behind them? None of them are aggressive in their nature. Because he embodies the concept of grace. He doesen't kill you, he doesen't murder you, he DEFEATS you. I can already see your criticism on this: "yeah, so, what about touch of death?" I answer straight away. Fits perfectly the monk theme. It's the lethal technique, the one that you NEVER use. Kill Bill's "five palms on the heart thingie" (cannot remember the proper name). And it's the only one of that kind.
Let's see a Fury Warrior now: Bash, Enrage, Execute, Raging Blow. See the difference?
Let's take the effects of Dampen Harm: damage reduction. That same ability, given to the Warrior, would have been "Rockhard Awsome muscles" and to the Mage "ice barrier". Everything has to fit the class, the theme, and visually represent it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOBXcfgEc4s

Here we can see another example of what i mean. Illidan fighting. Would you define him "graceful"? Does it fit? Yes, he does jump into the air with an astounding amount of AGILITY (and wings of course)... only to leap down SMASHING the opponent.

So, back to the subject at hand. I don't think a pirouette suits a Demon Hunter and his core and unique ability "Double Jump". I think it fits more a Monk, and the concept behind it. Thus, i would like the ability "Double Jump", unique to demon hunters, to have a Demon Hunter feeling, since it's related to the class and not to the race. Blood Elves can keep their twirl. Just don't proc it on double jump and give them a new animation more suited to the class theme.

[Drosul]

Disagreeing with you and calling you out for your mendacity is not trolling. Nor do you get to decide who posts in "your" thread.

Attempted thread derailment/hijacking, is a form of trolling. But please, continue avoiding the simple question.

"Why the hell, would a Demon Hunter always do a 360* spin on all of their double jumps?" or more specifically: "What purpose would it serve?"

Answer that question, or kindly leave my thread

[Cooper]

snip

>Finds a scene from a highly stylized Chinese Kung Fu flick
>Compares it to in-game combat animations

How about trying these two?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB82pF_64mw

Notice how smoothly Illidan's movements transition from one to the next? Arthas is the one fighting with brute force; Illidan is fighting with a fluid, graceful style.

Kind of like

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPHw0wzDCpg

Darth Maul even does a pirouette at about 50 seconds. Does his gracefulness make him not angry and aggressive?

As a footnote, it's worth noting that they flip over each other a few times in that "Hero" clip - just like Illidan's "Dive" ability in HotS.