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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Furitrix View Post
    at best someone that plays GoSac perfectly will have similar resultsy.
    Single target, no movement Simcraft does not do a good job of accurately capturing the relative strength of these talents on a fight like archimonde. Ghaddo's modules attempt to solve a long lust-on-pull patchwork -- which archimonde is very not.

    Differences that make Sup look better than it is: Simcraft lusts outside of execute range, does not save cd's for execute range, doesn't pot in execute range

    Differences that make Sac look better than it is: Simcraft doesn't ever have to move

    Less straightforward differences: doing damage to adds, gaining a bunch of extra shards from adds

    Another Defiler's End lock here to recommend destro, and sac over sup if you're dead set on affliction. You'd have to have a ridiculously inefficient movement tactic for the imp to be good.

  2. #22
    If heroic archimonde isn't progression for you, do whatever you want. Both specs will perform similarly from purely a dps standpoint (destro is probably more useful for your raid but who gives a shit if it's a farm kill). Destro is leaps and bounds ahead of affliction when it comes to effective dps on mythic though.
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Furitrix View Post
    The thing is that GoSac barely outDPSes GoSup, we're talking about a theoretical ~100 DPS difference here even while standing still. So the moment there is even the slightest of movement chances are GoSup will do a little bit more DPS than GoSac...
    -snip-

    That is the sims for single target, no movement, in ilvl 715 gear. It doesn't change much wether you got ilvl 730 or are using different trinkets either, all the 3 Grimoire talents are very well balanced and get you roughly the same result.
    I just realized this is from Dark Intention's guide, which doesn't even include the Drain Soul buffs iirc.

  4. #24
    When I was progressing on Heroic Archi, Destro was great - great FnB cleave on adds and can prob get a gazillion shadowburns before phase 3. My guild has three mages, three hunters and every melee with burst cleave trinkets and shit - I'd be lucky if I get a FnB Chaos Bolt on P2 adds, let alone more than one Shadowburn cleave on boss. It stinks because P3, I'm really useful as destro - for portals (Void stars)/Infernals - which my guild 'suddenly' struggles with.

    When you guys go affliction for Heroic Archi, do you ignore infernals? I am tired of enjoying and doing well on all HFC fights but struggling on H-Manno/Heroic Archi farm (hopefully), I think I might just go affliction for those two and save the stress.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaldarius View Post
    When you guys go affliction for Heroic Archi, do you ignore infernals?
    You just tunnel the boss and mostly pretend like everything else doesn't exist besides grabbing shards.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  6. #26
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furitrix View Post
    The buff doesn't make a difference, GoSac and GoSup remain very closely to eachother.
    It makes a tiny difference, but seriously, give up, you're talking to a guy for whom "very close" is simply never going to be close enough.

  7. #27
    Bloodsail Admiral kushlol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atroxe View Post
    If heroic archimonde isn't progression for you, do whatever you want. Both specs will perform similarly from purely a dps standpoint (destro is probably more useful for your raid but who gives a shit if it's a farm kill). Destro is leaps and bounds ahead of affliction when it comes to effective dps on mythic though.
    If it's leaps and bounds ahead on mythic why did a few guilds run even 2 affi locks for progression kills on mythic archimonde ? I haven't done the fight myself to formulate my own opinion but for these early world kills from guilds on the cutting edge I'd assume they wouldn't even consider playing a spec vastly inferior to another no ?

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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by kushlol View Post
    If it's leaps and bounds ahead on mythic why did a few guilds run even 2 affi locks for progression kills on mythic archimonde ? I haven't done the fight myself to formulate my own opinion but for these early world kills from guilds on the cutting edge I'd assume they wouldn't even consider playing a spec vastly inferior to another no ?
    48 logged warlock kills on WCL, 45 are destro, one of the 3 affli locks was actually destruction on the first kill plus progression, leaving us with a single guild who used aff locks, but apparently that's a "few."

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by kushlol View Post
    If it's leaps and bounds ahead on mythic why did a few guilds run even 2 affi locks for progression kills on mythic archimonde ? I haven't done the fight myself to formulate my own opinion but for these early world kills from guilds on the cutting edge I'd assume they wouldn't even consider playing a spec vastly inferior to another no ?
    AFAIK, the only guild that played affliction locks who are also cutting edge world progression are the FS locks. Their kill was also shortly after the buffs to affliction so it could be assumed that they overrated affliction. I obviously can't speak on their behalf but you lose out on too much damage where it needs to be. Every single progression bump you will hit is something that destro excels at. P1 Doomfires = destro, P2 Deathcallers = destro, P3 Infernals = destro. It's really a clear choice, to be honest.

    edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Valq View Post
    48 logged warlock kills on WCL, 45 are destro, one of the 3 affli locks was actually destruction on the first kill plus progression, leaving us with a single guild who used aff locks, but apparently that's a "few."
    You can't really look at public logs for something like archimonde. Impact's log where Mega is aff on there atm is a re-kill, not a progression kill. I'm positive Megafrau from Impact was destro on their first kill.
    Last edited by Atroxe; 2015-08-28 at 12:52 PM.
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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Furitrix View Post
    You usually can SB:SoulSwap + DrainSoul the infernals, same with the Deathcallers.
    Why would you soulburn soulswap the infernals when you can simply just soulswap your dots of the boss onto them while saving a shard?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Atroxe View Post
    AFAIK, the only guild that played affliction locks who are also cutting edge world progression are the FS locks. Their kill was also shortly after the buffs to affliction so it could be assumed that they overrated affliction. I obviously can't speak on their behalf but you lose out on too much damage where it needs to be. Every single progression bump you will hit is something that destro excels at. P1 Doomfires = destro, P2 Deathcallers = destro, P3 Infernals = destro. It's really a clear choice, to be honest.

    edit:


    You can't really look at public logs for something like archimonde. Impact's log where Mega is aff on there atm is a re-kill, not a progression kill. I'm positive Megafrau from Impact was destro on their first kill.
    I did mention that he was the lock who played destro on their first kill at the start. Afaik the only guilds that used affliction locks were FS, AFK, and Danish Terrace used them in the first few days just to be able to transition to p2 quickly to see it, but they ended up playing destro for the kills.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Valq View Post
    I did mention that he was the lock who played destro on their first kill at the start. Afaik the only guilds that used affliction locks were FS, AFK, and Danish Terrace used them in the first few days just to be able to transition to p2 quickly to see it, but they ended up playing destro for the kills.
    Whoops, completely read over that, sorry. I didn't include AFKR because in my eyes, after kill videos go out, a lot of the intuition behind spec choice goes out the window. I don't consider any video guild "cutting edge". Not to discredit anyone in a top end guild's kill because the boss is obviously really hard. Just that it's much easier to find out which spec to play on an encounter and how to plan your cooldowns etc, when you've seen all the phases beforehand.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    It makes a tiny difference, but seriously, give up, you're talking to a guy for whom "very close" is simply never going to be close enough.
    I just don't see why you'd take a talent that is just worse in every way. You lose execute DPS, a personal DR cooldown, extra health (although I guess the EHP is the same), etc. What do you gain? Movement DPS on a fight where you honestly don't move all that much and can very easily play around by using that time to reapply DoTs or Life Tap or just use your Demonic Circle.
    Destruction is a better spec overall on this fight, but if you're going to play Affliction you might as well make the most out of it. Go ahead and play GoSup, you'll probably do fine and it hopefully won't hinder your potential to kill the boss at this point in the tier but don't try to justify it as being superior because "the fight has movement" when that's a non-factor unless your own (not you Jessicka, I don't* know anything about you) skill as a player is what is getting in the way. Sounds egotistical (and I don't mean it to be, because I am far from an amazing player) but it's true.
    Last edited by zvvl; 2015-08-28 at 02:25 PM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by zvvl View Post
    Sounds egotistical (and I don't mean it to be, because I am far from an amazing player) but it's true.
    I think you're an amazing player, Firepimp 8)
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  14. #34
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zvvl View Post
    I just don't see why you'd take a talent that is just worse in every way. You lose execute DPS, a personal DR cooldown, extra health (although I guess the EHP is the same), etc. What do you gain? Movement DPS on a fight where you honestly don't move all that much and can very easily play around by using that time to reapply DoTs or Life Tap or just use your Demonic Circle.
    Destruction is a better spec overall on this fight, but if you're going to play Affliction you might as well make the most out of it. Go ahead play GoSup, you'll probably do fine and it hopefully won't hinder your potential to kill the boss at this point in the tier but don't try to justify it as being superior because "the fight has movement" when that's a non-factor unless your own skill as a player is what is getting in the way. Sounds egotistical (and I don't mean it to be, because I am far from an amazing player) but it's true.
    I explained my decision for using Service earlier; it lined up perfectly for the Nether Banish because we wanted out of there ASAP, and since we stop DPS at ~28% for everyone to be out for the Rain of Chaos, then that's time with the other talents I'm wasting damage while the CD is ticking down. And sure, I played Affliction because of the movement, while I did try out all three specs - overall the total throughput differences were pretty similar; it just varied as to where and when each spec/talent was actually most useful to the raid.

    In the grand scheme of things, the issue was getting through 10-12% Rain, where moving kinda matters to avoid Shadows and prevent the Infernals from stacking actually has an impact; the other 95% of the fight simply doesn't matter and handles itself. You guys are probably right if you can stand and tunnel, but that's not a realistic proposition for every raid group.

    And that is why I keep caveating all this with what works for your group.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Just to add, I don't think the OP is talking about Mythic, or how to score the best parse. I think they just want the boss dead. I could be wrong on both counts.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2015-08-28 at 01:29 PM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    -snip-
    I haven't tested it but I would assume Demo would be better overall if you are running Serv, especially if movement is your concern and if you want to blow a big CD and go through the last bit. Of course, I can't really speak as to the usefulness of any odd talent choices because at this point anything I do will exceed a group still progressing because we kill it in half the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Atroxe View Post
    I think you're an amazing player, Firepimp 8)
    that isnt even me u've been lied to )
    Last edited by zvvl; 2015-08-28 at 02:33 PM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post

    Just to add, I don't think the OP is talking about Mythic, or how to score the best parse. I think they just want the boss dead. I could be wrong on both counts.
    And if the OP is looking to kill the boss, then the spec with the best toolkit on that boss by far is destruction, and not affliction. :d

  17. #37
    Deleted
    Hi guys. I'd like few advices for archimonde hc if possible. Lock is my 5th alt, its around 709il, and I'm trying to push for at least 50k dps on it. With my other alts (priest, shaman, druid, hunter) I have no troubles on this fight but for some reason I really dont liike Mannaroth/Archi when I play my lock.
    I think I'll go with affliction (raid has killed it 7 weeks now so there are no issues with mechanics), but I was wondering... is it worth to use archimonde trinket or rather go with piston? I kinda hate our trinket on this fight but I'm not sure piston would give better results.
    Also, what talents do you suggest? And how do you usually handle the adds in p2? Between moving, shackles and everything it's impossible to dot them all up (at least I was never able to), what do you do? Keep dots on archi/deathcallers and drain adds about to die?
    Anything you can add to gain more dps? I read some of you suggested to just focus on boss in p3 but I can't do that since our rl wants everyone to burn down infernals asap.
    Thanks a lot for the help!

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Furitrix View Post
    Not if his raid has relatively low single target DPS on Archimonde.

    I had to spec affliction to stop my guild from wiping on p1 from being overrun by fires and pillars, and a much faster p3 helped to get the first kill too.

    Destruction is great to learn the fight, but if you notice that your guild, with it's particular raidsetup is struggling with long phase1 (more than 4 pillars) then going affliction might make all the difference. Obviously, if your guild keeps struggling with doomfires and deathcallers staying alive too long, then stay destruction. If you struggle with both, find a different guild.
    I find affliction works well on the fight. Multi dot adds and help to knock archi down quicker is great. Pulling solid numbers on him as affliction.

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