Why is it Crit>Mastery not Haste>Mastery for Beastmastery in Challenge Mode?

[Icecreamcake]

If has increases attack speed, paired with Beast Cleave, wouldn't that be better for trash packs? Why do most guides and people suggest Crit and Mastery over Haste and Mastery?

[SyphonRT]

I am not really sure which guides you are referring to. Places like Icy Veins have Crit at the bottom of the stat priority list.

Also, Trash DPS is irrelevant to stat priorities. These priorities are mostly based on maximum DPS on boss fights.

EDIT: never mind! I just saw that you refer to Challenge Modes... Sorry, didn't have my morning coffee yet.

[Daetur]

I'm not a theorycrafter, but until someone with more knowledge can come along to confirm, deny, or add more insight- if I had to hazard a guess, it may be because of an interaction between Invigoration granting your pet Focus on your autoattack crits, and that resulting in a higher number of Basic Attacks from your pet.

[Azortharion]

Crit value is inflated at super low iLvls.

[Gestopft]

I would imagine it depends on how long the mobs live and how the pulls are done.

Haste may be equal (or better) damage over the same period of time, but I think crit would be better at shortening the fight. Haste could only add so many extra attacks per pull, especially if they are short pulls.

[Soulstorm]

Edit: This post is incorrect. Was thinking about blink strikes.

Don't know either, but beast cleave is only affect by basic melee attacks; not attacks like Claw, Bite etc - so pet focus doesn't really matter in AoE.

[Daetur]

Crit value is inflated at super low iLvls.

This would be the guy to listen to.

[Azortharion]

Don't know either, but beast cleave is only affect by basic melee attacks; not attacks like Claw, Bite etc - so pet focus doesn't really matter in AoE.

Wrong. Where do you get this from? Beast Cleave is affected by auto attacks and Basic Attacks alike.

[Soulstorm]

Wrong. Where do you get this from? Beast Cleave is affected by auto attacks and Basic Attacks alike.

You're right, my bad, was thinking about blink strikes not affecting basic melee. Editing my post to avoid confusion.

[Deleted]

If has increases attack speed, paired with Beast Cleave, wouldn't that be better for trash packs? Why do most guides and people suggest Crit and Mastery over Haste and Mastery?

It's neither Crit>Mastery nor Haste>Mastery, it's Mastery>Crit. Mastery is more important than any other stat by FAR, to the point where you'd want double mastery rolls on your gear (If you want to grind that much).

Azor already said that Crit is inflated at super low ilvls & due to Focus Fire and Heroism you really don't need the extra Haste on your gear.


I'll quote a post Traxie made a while ago on the WoW forums;

Haste is garbage for CMs, not only do you have lust for the full duration of most boss fights but you also have focus fire which you should have nearly 100% uptime on, 5 stack on pull and most of the time another 5 stack or at worst a 3-4 stack on your second focus fire.

For aoe, as pulls get bigger, especially if you're running steady focus haste will SIM higher than crit. However its misleading because its hard to sim 5 stack frenzy on a trash pull, the focus fire will basically make up for not having any haste on your gear. Basically the only reason haste pulls ahead is if you don't have lust and if you don't have focus fire, but then you're either not in a CM or you're not playing a hunter. On top of that haste does next to nothing at 630 ilvl, youd gain maybe 4% haste but lose over 10% crit.

[ArclightRL]

I was never sure if your beast cleaves even critted tbh, never came up in logs as beas cleaving ever doing a multi/crit and in the tooltip it only states that the multi of a beast cleave is just added as extra beast cleave dmg. I mean I assumed there was more to it but never found it. Similar to how PW:S works on priest i guess - it never shows it in logs for critting but you do see sometimes a shield is worth twice as much as normal without procs. That being said I sorta wish it did show up in combat logs

[Azortharion]

Beast Cleave doesn't "crit", but Beast Cleave is based on regular attacks (cleaves them), and if they Crit, Beast Cleave also "Crits".

E.g.

Bite does 100 damage hit, Beast Cleave does 100 damage times 2 (on 2 targets), seen as Beast Cleave HITS in combat logs.

Bite does 200 damage Crit, Beast Cleave does 200 damage times 2 (on 2 targets), seen as Beast Cleave HITS in combat logs as well.

[Biggerarms]

Hi, I know this thread is somewhat old but I felt like I should share my experience.

Mastery is the king of all stats for Beast Mastery inside of CM's. The more you can get, the better. I personally run whatever piece I have that has the highest mastery value inside of a CM. That being said, in my experience with testing, the AOE potential with haste is much higher then with crit. I've found I can burst much higher with full haste mastery gear on AOE compared to full crit mastery gear. Although, its not much higher then crit mastery, and crit has much higher boss burst potential then haste. I would personally just go for the most mastery that you can get your hands on.

I've done an extreme amount of CM's this expansion, and hold some current World Record Times and US Best Times as a hunter. I'm not saying anything about my rank as a hunter in CM's, but this is what I have found to be the best option. If you would like to look up my hunter, my name is Biggerarms on US-Sargeras Alliance. Can't post links yet since I just made this account

[Azortharion]

Hi, I know this thread is somewhat old but I felt like I should share my experience.

Mastery is the king of all stats for Beast Mastery inside of CM's. The more you can get, the better. I personally run whatever piece I have that has the highest mastery value inside of a CM. That being said, in my experience with testing, the AOE potential with haste is much higher then with crit. I've found I can burst much higher with full haste mastery gear on AOE compared to full crit mastery gear. Although, its not much higher then crit mastery, and crit has much higher boss burst potential then haste. I would personally just go for the most mastery that you can get your hands on.

I've done an extreme amount of CM's this expansion, and hold some current World Record Times and US Best Times as a hunter. I'm not saying anything about my rank as a hunter in CM's, but this is what I have found to be the best option. If you would like to look up my hunter, my name is Biggerarms on US-Sargeras Alliance. Can't post links yet since I just made this account

Even if you were right and this anecdotal evidence counted for something, then you would not have a chance in hell of noticing the difference between the two builds.

[Dossou]

Haste is going to perform alot better on longer AoE pulls

Mirror of the Blademaster gets extra ticks from haste I believe, that's why probably why Biggerarms noticed higher burst with a mastery>haste setup.

I haven't done CMs times for quite a while but had US #1 Bloodmaul for 6 months and transitioned from mastery>crit to mastery>haste with the new trinkets and becoming more familiar with the pulls/being able to do bigger pulls.

[ArclightRL]

Haste is going to perform alot better on longer AoE pulls

Mirror of the Blademaster gets extra ticks from haste I believe, that's why probably why Biggerarms noticed higher burst with a mastery>haste setup.

I haven't done CMs times for quite a while but had US #1 Bloodmaul for 6 months and transitioned from mastery>crit to mastery>haste with the new trinkets and becoming more familiar with the pulls/being able to do bigger pulls.

Is blademaster the way to go? I just assumed pajeets + lucky dbl coin was still BiS. Also that trink can crit and multi as well so surely haste value on it wouldnt completely outscale the value of crit

[Bluesilverkt]

I have been trying to get the answer for this for a while now, I have seen the top CM runs and it is all over for gear, Ive seen people with top times in Mastery > Crit, I have also seen people using mastery > haste and finally I have now seen hunters in Crit > Multi, the time difference is minor so I it seems as if it comes down to the team comp and exp/skill, as someone posted before, get the piece with most mastery and then flip a coin, Heads = Crit / Tails = Haste and run with it lol.

[Saiyoran]

Piggybacking off this thread to ask about Blademaster since it was mentioned.
Is it worth it for BM Hunter? I have a lot of CM exp, a handful of world records on my monk and dk (2 current, 1 thats been beaten) so I understand most of the metagame of CMs, but I'm having a hard time noticing a lot of difference between coin/pajeet's and coin/blademaster on anything other than 15+ mobs (ala Iron Docks/Everbloom/UBRS first pulls). Blademaster looks nice on the meters, contributing 1-2M damage depending on the pull, but my Beast Cleave damage is significantly higher with a pajeet's proc obviously, and I have 0 doubt that pajeet's wins out on single target due to the random stipulation that BM only gets 2 blademasters (yes I know they scale with mastery, but they still end up doing less damage than other classes' blademasters). Most of this is anecdotal evidence, and I'm no good with sims so I'm not sure if there's a way you can sim Blademaster vs Pajeet's at 630 on a 30-45s pull on 10+ targets, but if anyone could do that I would be really interested in the results.

[Dossou]

Piggybacking off this thread to ask about Blademaster since it was mentioned.
Is it worth it for BM Hunter? I have a lot of CM exp, a handful of world records on my monk and dk (2 current, 1 thats been beaten) so I understand most of the metagame of CMs, but I'm having a hard time noticing a lot of difference between coin/pajeet's and coin/blademaster on anything other than 15+ mobs (ala Iron Docks/Everbloom/UBRS first pulls). Blademaster looks nice on the meters, contributing 1-2M damage depending on the pull, but my Beast Cleave damage is significantly higher with a pajeet's proc obviously, and I have 0 doubt that pajeet's wins out on single target due to the random stipulation that BM only gets 2 blademasters (yes I know they scale with mastery, but they still end up doing less damage than other classes' blademasters). Most of this is anecdotal evidence, and I'm no good with sims so I'm not sure if there's a way you can sim Blademaster vs Pajeet's at 630 on a 30-45s pull on 10+ targets, but if anyone could do that I would be really interested in the results.

The issue with Pajeet is the RNG of the proc
You could be doing a 20 second pull and it can proc in the last 3 seconds giving you no benefit
Obviously with perfect RNG Pajeet will out perform Blademaster single target and small aoe but you're never going to have perfect RNG

Also nobody really cares about CMs at the moment...
In MoP all of the world first times were taken by well known raiders in top guilds and players because they engaging and fun. CMs now are completely boring and stupid so none of those top CM players from MoP care enough to take #1 times.

[eschatological]

Also nobody really cares about CMs at the moment...
In MoP all of the world first times were taken by well known raiders in top guilds and players because they engaging and fun. CMs now are completely boring and stupid so none of those top CM players from MoP care enough to take #1 times.

I find this interesting. Why do you think this?

It's true for me, too, I did golds on 5 toons in MoP, and chased times with 1, and I haven't even touched them this expansion. Much of that can be put down to not having access to the same team (people quit, etc), but even still, I don't like them much this tier. I think I had a few bad experiences trying to carry guildies through them because they were "required" early expansion for the 640 gear, but yeah.