Time-invested based progression has gotten out of hand.

[Deleted]

It's an MMO, nobody can claim that zero time-based progression should exist or it would be an FPS game. But, we have to have limits, and I think those limits have been exceeded recently (or further than recently in the case of a few achievements). The main offender is the latest two legendary questlines. They give a big advantage and they give it very easily, however, it is almost entirely time-invested based. That means that everyone can get it by just logging in and doing rudimentary stuff that really require the most minimal effort, and in some cases they don't even require any effort at all, just a /follow. But being easy is the least of the problem. The main issue is that it gates people behind a mainly time-based progression that gives very big benefits to raiding. We know why this happens, it promotes monthly fees. I would normally be OK with this if it went in line with the gametype, but I believe it doesn't. The gametype could have this type of progression but maybe only if it was very strictly based on also skill of the player. The way it is structured now, with skill playing a minimal role or no role, it has the added disadvantage that people feel nerfed if they haven't done that time-based progression while they never had to prove their skill. If skill was required on top of the time-based investment then it would be less of a problem because the people that have completed that kind of progression would be less, and therefore the people being gated behind that type of progression would not feel like their only "sin" was not paying for monthly fees. The gametype of raiding that this type of questline supports is solely based on skill, it is not there to just show you the boss, unless you only play LFR. Since it is skill-based, then its progression for the most important item in the game to use in said progression, should also be based on skill. Time-invested progression should be limited and it certainly shouldn't be the main factor.

[Gorgodeus]

The time investment needed now is far less than in the past, so your whole premise is wrong.

[Deleted]

The time investment needed now is far less than in the past, so your whole premise is wrong.

"Something changed from questline 1 to questline 2 so everything is wrong"? Not only that doesn't cover the whole point, it's also completely off topic. I talk about both questlines having a problem hence even if one is easier or harder I still talk about both having the same problem anyway.

[Gorgodeus]

"Something changed from questline 1 to questline 2 so everything is wrong"? Not only that doesn't make anything wrong at all, it's also completely off topic. I talk about both questlines having a problem hence even if one is easier or harder I still talk about both having the same problem anyway.

It used to take a hell of a lot more time in the past to get legendaries, and they were limited as to who was going to get them due to them being class specific as well. Just another post wanting the "special snowflakes" to have things others won't have.

[Deleted]

It used to take a hell of a lot more

Again the problem is the same. It remains the same.

Maybe you should read more than the thread Titles.

[Gorgodeus]

Again the problem is the same. It remains the same.

Maybe you should read more than the thread Titles.

Your whole post is about "it should be skill driven", hence my point stands. Maybe you should read your own post.

[Gwiez]

We farmed MC for a lot longer just to get 1-2 people a legendary. The entire premise of comparing a legendary questline where it's a means to provide a continuing story and legendary weapons from pre-MoP is flawed.

[Deleted]

Your whole post is about "it should be skill driven", hence my point stands. Maybe you should read your own post.

Your logic is fundamentally flawed if you actually read more than the title. It seems you just read the skill-based point now. If you did before it's a flawed logic because it doesn't matter if the new questline takes a little less to do.

It still takes a whole lot of time if you do it late. But that's the least of the issue. It does it without requiring any skill.

Also the Archimonde-only upgrades are borderline the same. Sure, it's normal non-LFR but not that much different.

- - - Updated - - -

We farmed MC for a lot longer just to get 1-2 people a legendary. The entire premise of comparing a legendary questline where it's a means to provide a continuing story and legendary weapons from pre-MoP is flawed.

Nobody was supposed to have the legendaries in Vanilla by default. Right now, it's a default. That's the whole problem.



PS. The Archimonde upgrades aren't that different because by the time you do get the legendary joining a normal Archimonde would be ridiculously easy.

[Deleted]

It used to take a hell of a lot more time in the past to get legendaries, and they were limited as to who was going to get them due to them being class specific as well. Just another post wanting the "special snowflakes" to have things others won't have.

how is that a problem? why does everybody need a legendary ring? whats so legendary about it then?

lol

[Polybius]

I get what you're saying OP. They basically integrated Garrisons into Legendary and progression questlines. We need more of MoP's legendary questline, where players queue up for scenarios and put enough effort in minimal time, as opposed to minimal effort in a large time span.

Note, it would help if you split your post into paragraphs.

[clevin]

Folks? Read the whole post.... it's not about how much time the legendary takes but a) that it takes time that's linear and b) this means that it's hard to catch up - barring drop rate adjustments, once you hit the point where you're collect stuff, you only get it so fast per week and c) since everyone can get a legendary it's expected by a lot of raids, meaning it's harder to get into a decent raid team if you start later even if the rest of your gear is up to par.

I don't know how true (c) is, but to me the issue with the legendary is precisely that it's just slogging along, week after week with no way to accelerate that based on individual skill or even luck, much.

[ComputerNerd]

The problem with a skill measure is how that is defined.
If we go by what was in many cases the old legendary system, then it was a rare drop off a certain boss which was using the difficulty of that boss as the measure.
That I feel is flawed for two reasons, you are only one of a given number of that raid and there is no skill measure which increases the chance of a drop, or who gets it.
Someone coming in 5 years later and soloing could still be getting the legendary before someone who was there and killing it when current.

You spend a lot of time talking about skill-based progression, but aren't defining how that should be determined.

The only test in my view that can be truly personal skill driven, is one that isolates the player.
A solo experience.
I don't see an issue with some sort of encounter progression as part of the journey, just not the test.

[Deleted]

I don't know how true (c) is, but to me the issue with the legendary is precisely that it's just slogging along, week after week with no way to accelerate that based on individual skill or even luck, much.

I feel the same to be honest. That's the main core of how I think about it. It's something that exists as a time-based progression but it's completely skill-unrelated (well, almost, but it approximately needs 0 skill) while there's no way to accelerate it and it just exists there being slow and steady without any change even if you are God in skill.

The normal Archimonde kills don't do much either since by the time one gets the ring, normal pugs would be very easy.

Hell, I can kill Archimonde heroic easily before the ring. So many people want to run it.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem with a skill measure is how that is defined.
If we go by what was in many cases the old legendary system, then it was a rare drop off a certain boss which was using the difficulty of that boss as the measure.
That I feel is flawed for two reasons, you are only one of a given number of that raid and there is no skill measure which increases the chance of a drop, or who gets it.
Someone coming in 5 years later and soloing could still be getting the legendary before someone who was there and killing it when current.

You spend a lot of time talking about skill-based progression, but aren't defining how that should be determined.

The only test in my view that can be truly personal skill driven, is one that isolates the player.
A solo experience.
I don't see an issue with some sort of encounter progression as part of the journey, just not the test.

I'm not suggesting the old system. The old system of just RNG was probably even worse. I think the whole point is that they try to squeeze monthly fees with this easy progression and a lot of players feel like that's a nasty way of doing it.

It's not that they get money out of it. It's that they disturb the gametype.

They do because they gate players behind that time-based requirement.



PS. Think that there is a possibility of no legendary at all.

[Zyky]

I get what you're saying OP. They basically integrated Garrisons into Legendary and progression questlines. We need more of MoP's legendary questline, where players queue up for scenarios and put enough effort in minimal time, as opposed to minimal effort in a large time span.

Note, it would help if you split your post into paragraphs.

I disagree, I've been saying this since MoP, if they're just going to give legendaries to anyone they need to just not implement them anymore. It's not as truly legendary as back in Burning Crusade as seeing the Warglave drop after a long grueling grind of progression, then having to clear week after week and finally seeing one of them drop 10 weeks in. There's people without a single archimonde kill who have their legendary ring, there's people with no progression time at all that had their rings, same with the cloak; they never even had to step into SoO to get their cloak.

I'd be ok with questline legendaries if they had to actually be earned, by one person at a time. Like the Shadowmourne, Dragonwrath, or Fangs of the Father. Right now the "legendary ring" might as well be an epic that just happens to be a higher IL. I really hope they don't travel down this path again in Legion, as it is we're all going to be walking around with only a few handfuls of different weapons over the whole expansion.

[DarthMonk79]

The thing is they are "legendary" now only by name. It is the "legendary" story you follow by doing all the quests, even the gathering/time based ones. Your reward for doing all the quest, storylines, gathering of items is the "legendary" item.

[Polybius]

I disagree, I've been saying this since MoP, if they're just going to give legendaries to anyone they need to just not implement them anymore. It's not as truly legendary as back in Burning Crusade as seeing the Warglave drop after a long grueling grind of progression, then having to clear week after week and finally seeing one of them drop 10 weeks in. There's people without a single archimonde kill who have their legendary ring, there's people with no progression time at all that had their rings, same with the cloak; they never even had to step into SoO to get their cloak.

I'd be ok with questline legendaries if they had to actually be earned, by one person at a time. Like the Shadowmourne, Dragonwrath, or Fangs of the Father. Right now the "legendary ring" might as well be an epic that just happens to be a higher IL. I really hope they don't travel down this path again in Legion, as it is we're all going to be walking around with only a few handfuls of different weapons over the whole expansion.

A Legendary doesn't have to take a long time to obtain. But I agree that it should go back to its roots like Shadowmourne, or Dragonwrath. Players that don't commit enough effort shouldn't reap rewards they don't deserve.

[ComputerNerd]

A Legendary doesn't have to take a long time to obtain. But I agree that it should go back to its roots like Shadowmourne, or Dragonwrath. Players that don't commit enough effort shouldn't reap rewards they don't deserve.

"deserving" is a very problematic phrase to attach to that.
Time commitment is problematic for some to do in long-sessions, and so that is why formats such as LFR appeal.
Because it supports more fragmented gameplay, where a player may be unable to commit in advance or to expected durations.

[Deleted]

The thing is they are "legendary" now only by name. It is the "legendary" story you follow by doing all the quests, even the gathering/time based ones. Your reward for doing all the quest, storylines, gathering of items is the "legendary" item.

I find the prestige or the lore or anything like that here irrelevant. I mainly look at the advantages of those items attributes to the gametype of raiding at its core, at its technical core. And that is violated by this progression type because people are gated to not have those important item attributes behind a time-based progression that requires approximately no skill.

If it required both skill and time then it would be much less of a problem because most averagely-skilled players wouldn't feel like they are required to have it because only the most skilled would have it.

Or if it was accelerated by skill at least.

[Nurvus]

Your whole post is about "it should be skill driven", hence my point stands. Maybe you should read your own post.

You seem to be mistaking Skill (and Effort) with elitism, and fixed schedules.

The most casual player in the world can become as skilled as the most hardcore.
The most casual player in the world can put in the same effort as the most hardcore.
Time has nothing to do with Skill or Effort.
Fixed Schedules have nothing to do with Skill or Effort.
Because Time and Fixed Schedules are the only 2 barriers for Casuals.

Should skill and effort be a brick wall against progress? Certainly not.
Should it influence your rate of progress on the most awesome rewards? Absolutely.

Acquiring a Legendary shouldn't be a matter of setting an Alarm for when its ready.

[prwraith]

Wow requires next to no time investment. Shit I spent 60 bucks on a druid got him to 100 in a couple of days by looting treasures and he's already got enough gear to kill archimond this weak in LFR.

If I could raid the current end game boss the same week I started a character there's no time investment of significant note.