How Timewalker Mounts should have been handled

[Coconut]

So, Blizzard wants these monthly events to keep people busy for the entire content drought until Legion, and beyond.

Two mounts, both reused old assets, each taking roughly 5 months with event quest and a reasonable ~15 runs for each available week. Can't play during one event? Tough luck, it's gonna take you even longer.

How is this enough to keep the average player interested? With such a long wait, the rewards become meaningless. When they could have been exciting if you could just sub and get one of them now, they are just off-putting. Even I, an avid mount collector who stubbornly pushes through grinds, think this is way, way, way too much.

It's so unreasonable that people are just not going to care. "Screw it, if it's gonna take that long it might as well take longer. I'll get it anyway while I sub for better content." Or, "I was willing to give the game a chance for this dangling carrot, but I know I won't stay subbed for 5 more months, so I'm not getting it anyway. Pass on WoW." This is what the average players will say.

So, if you came up with this system, and you want it to be long-lived, why not dig deeper into the sack? Let people earn enough tokens each month for roughly one mount, and simply add a lot more of them! People will not farm 5 months for a single mount, but they might farm 5 months for 5! That sounds more fair, doesn't it?

There are a lot of unused or not implemented mount models already in the game files, and let's face it, those models, even the absolute best of them, are showing their age. When are you going to end up using them? And there is very little cost of adding them, all the models already exist!

Here's a list for more possible Timewalker mounts for several expansions, taken from http://www.warcraftmounts.com/:

The Burning Crusade:

Brown Amani War Bear
Green Amani War Bear
Black Hellfire Nether Drake
Fancy Green Hawkstrider
Toshely's Vintage Mechanostrider
Ethereal Nether Drake
Farstrider Dawnsaber
Reins of Ironjaw
Blood Knight's Ghostlands Risen Steed
Warden's Striped Black Saber
Quel'danas Dragonhawk
Feltalon of the Burning Crusade

Wrath of the Lich King:

Faithful Steed of Lordaeron
Grizzly Hills Wild Stallion
Knight's War Horse
Ebon Blade Deathcharger
Unholy Steed of Naxxramas
Aimee's Taffy Mechanostrider
Darkfallen Black Dragonhawk
Dragonblight Frostwyrm
Kel'Thuzad's Old Flying Rug
Crystalsong Frostsaber
Ghost of Northrend
Reins of the Bleached Zul'Drak Raptor
Reins of the Mouldy Zul'Drak Raptor
Bolvar's Spirited War Steed (Alliance only)
Saurfang's Snarling War Wolf (Horde only)

And, because we'll get them eventually:

Cataclysm:

Millhouse's Mighty Spellweave Carpet of Doom
Poisonous Tol'vir Scorpid
Barrens Zhevra
Time-Lost Dreadsteed
Reins of the Stranglethorn Tiger
Spotted Darkshore Nightsaber
Firefighter's Aqua Hippogryph
Feralas Hippogryph (Shandris' mount of choice)
Barrens Tallstrider (It can chat, too!)
Magatha's Plain Old Kodo
Kajamite-Powered Mechanostrider Replica (Twice as prone to explode!)
Reins of the Red Twilight Drake
Reins of the Purple Twilight Drake
Reins of the Shy Golden Seahorse
Ashenvale Low-Emissions Shredder
Reins of the First Dragonmaw Proto-drake

Mists of Pandaria:

Unruly Blue Goat
Reins of the Pink Riding Crane
Reins of the Jade Riding Crane
Invader's Armored Skyscreamer
Jungle Armored Skyscreamer *
Kota Kon's Kafa Press
Grand Thundering Dragon Turtle
Effigy of Yu'lon
Thundering Ivory Cloud Serpent
Thundering Icy Cloud Serpent
Golden Pandaren Kite
Grand Pandaren Kite
Mogu'shan Flying Cloud
Stormy Flying Cloud
Green Primal Direhorn
Blue Mushan Beast
Guo-Lai War Quilen
Tomb Guardian of Lei'Shen
Steed of Iron Quon
Blackfuse Faulty Prototype
Kyparite Powered Juggernaut
Black Riding Yak
Blonde Riding Yak

*Leaving the other Skyscreamers for future Zandalari content.

And whow, that's a lot of mounts! All Blizzard has to do is implement them and add them to the vendors, and then, even if players aren't interested in farming them all, it's certain there will be something here for everybody's liking. Even if they're all reskins, and more than half are ancient.

Edit: Added in the Yaks.

[Paula Deen]

Most likely this was one of those "End Expansion Tests" they like to do. It also helps that it is a pretty decent grind. You are probably correct to some degree in thinking they should have done this, but they did what we got instead. Most of these mounts will most likely be added in the future, as you noted, these appearances are unused, as were the ones for the current two mounts until 6.2.2

[Coconut]

Most likely this was one of those "End Expansion Tests" they like to do. It also helps that it is a pretty decent grind. You are probably correct to some degree in thinking they should have done this, but they did what we got instead. Most of these mounts will most likely be added in the future, as you noted, these appearances are unused, as were the ones for the current two mounts until 6.2.2

Problem with grinds is people say "nah, I'm just not gonna do it". Just because it takes long to get one thing it doesn't mean Blizzard will get subscriptions for it.

[Paula Deen]

Problem with grinds is people say "nah, I'm just not gonna do it". Just because it takes long to get one thing it doesn't mean Blizzard will get subscriptions for it.

It really doesn't take long at all though. I will start the grind for them on Saturday, and have them Sunday Morning. Both of them. There is also toys and heirloom items and upgrades to get from this, instantly making Timewalking a better rewards driven Dungeon type than Heroic or Mythic. You may not like having to grind for things, but on top of your grind you have chances for mounts and pets to drop off the appropriate bosses and you get decently item leveled gear from it too. Timewalking will be one of the only features that makes it out of WoD being called positive.

[zox2]

Wow, that's a nice collection of mounts! But as a little rebuttal, if there is a clear goal to work towards, I'm usually more willing to do the long term grind, than trying to win the lottery for some of the drop mounts that do exist in the game.

[Coconut]

It really doesn't take long at all though. I will start the grind for them on Saturday, and have them Sunday Morning. Both of them. There is also toys and heirloom items and upgrades to get from this, instantly making Timewalking a better rewards driven Dungeon type than Heroic or Mythic. You may not like having to grind for things, but on top of your grind you have chances for mounts and pets to drop off the appropriate bosses and you get decently item leveled gear from it too. Timewalking will be one of the only features that makes it out of WoD being called positive.

5k tokens in one day with 35-40 tokens per dungeon? I doubt it :P

[Headayke]

I need something to work towards till Legion is released which we know isnt happening till spring 2016 at the earliest. Gives us 8~ months to grind those mounts, and in 2 months you will be starved for content and begging for mount grinds so suck it up as this is a grind expansion, if the resources, apexis and oil grinding wasnt already apparent.

[Coconut]

Wow, that's a nice collection of mounts! But as a little rebuttal, if there is a clear goal to work towards, I'm usually more willing to do the long term grind, than trying to win the lottery for some of the drop mounts that do exist in the game.

But this wouldn't be a drop lottery, they would all be at the vendor instead of just two. You just grind currency every event and pick a mount you like, or a few of them.

- - - Updated - - -

I need something to work towards till Legion is released which we know isnt happening till spring 2016 at the earliest. Gives us 8~ months to grind those mounts, and in 2 months you will be starved for content and begging for mount grinds so suck it up as this is a grind expansion, if the resources, apexis and oil grinding wasnt already apparent.

Seriously, you would grind 8 months for just one thing? Or two things? If only every player would be like you, 6 mounts per expansion would be enough to keep those subs going even without new dungeons and raids!

[Wolfheart9]

So, Blizzard wants these monthly events to keep people busy for the entire content drought until Legion, and beyond.

Two mounts, both reused old assets, each taking roughly 5 months with event quest and a reasonable ~15 runs for each available week. Can't play during one event? Tough luck, it's gonna take you even longer.

How is this enough to keep the average player interested? With such a long wait, the rewards become meaningless. When they could have been exciting if you could just sub and get one of them now, they are just off-putting. Even I, an avid mount collector who stubbornly pushes through grinds, think this is way, way, way too much.

It's so unreasonable that people are just not going to care. "Screw it, if it's gonna take that long it might as well take longer. I'll get it anyway while I sub for better content." Or, "I was willing to give the game a chance for this dangling carrot, but I know I won't stay subbed for 5 more months, so I'm not getting it anyway. Pass on WoW." This is what the average players will say.

So, if you came up with this system, and you want it to be long-lived, why not dig deeper into the sack? Let people earn enough tokens each month for roughly one mount, and simply add a lot more of them! People will not farm 5 months for a single mount, but they might farm 5 months for 5! That sounds more fair, doesn't it?

There are a lot of unused or not implemented mount models already in the game files, and let's face it, those models, even the absolute best of them, are showing their age. When are you going to end up using them? And there is very little cost of adding them, all the models already exist!

Here's a list for more possible Timewalker mounts for several expansions, taken from http://www.warcraftmounts.com/:

The Burning Crusade:

Brown Amani War Bear
Green Amani War Bear
Black Hellfire Nether Drake
Fancy Green Hawkstrider
Toshely's Vintage Mechanostrider
Ethereal Nether Drake
Farstrider Dawnsaber
Reins of Ironjaw
Blood Knight's Ghostlands Risen Steed
Warden's Striped Black Saber
Quel'danas Dragonhawk
Feltalon of the Burning Crusade

Wrath of the Lich King:

Faithful Steed of Lordaeron
Grizzly Hills Wild Stallion
Knight's War Horse
Ebon Blade Deathcharger
Unholy Steed of Naxxramas
Aimee's Taffy Mechanostrider
Darkfallen Black Dragonhawk
Dragonblight Frostwyrm
Kel'Thuzad's Old Flying Rug
Crystalsong Frostsaber
Ghost of Northrend
Reins of the Bleached Zul'Drak Raptor
Reins of the Mouldy Zul'Drak Raptor
Bolvar's Spirited War Steed (Alliance only)
Saurfang's Snarling War Wolf (Horde only)

And, because we'll get them eventually:

Cataclysm:

Millhouse's Mighty Spellweave Carpet of Doom
Poisonous Tol'vir Scorpid
Barrens Zhevra
Time-Lost Dreadsteed
Reins of the Stranglethorn Tiger
Spotted Darkshore Nightsaber
Firefighter's Aqua Hippogryph
Feralas Hippogryph (Shandris' mount of choice)
Barrens Tallstrider (It can chat, too!)
Magatha's Plain Old Kodo
Kajamite-Powered Mechanostrider Replica (Twice as prone to explode!)
Reins of the Red Twilight Drake
Reins of the Purple Twilight Drake
Reins of the Shy Golden Seahorse
Ashenvale Low-Emissions Shredder
Reins of the First Dragonmaw Proto-drake

Mists of Pandaria:

Unruly Blue Goat
Reins of the Pink Riding Crane
Reins of the Jade Riding Crane
Invader's Armored Skyscreamer
Jungle Armored Skyscreamer *
Kota Kon's Kafa Press
Grand Thundering Dragon Turtle
Effigy of Yu'lon
Thundering Ivory Cloud Serpent
Thundering Icy Cloud Serpent
Golden Pandaren Kite
Grand Pandaren Kite
Mogu'shan Flying Cloud
Stormy Flying Cloud
Green Primal Direhorn
Blue Mushan Beast
Guo-Lai War Quilen
Tomb Guardian of Lei'Shen
Steed of Iron Quon
Blackfuse Faulty Prototype
Kyparite Powered Juggernaut

*Leaving the other Skyscreamers for future Zandalari content.

And whow, that's a lot of mounts! All Blizzard has to do is implement them and add them to the vendors, and then, even if players aren't interested in farming them all, it's certain there will be something here for everybody's liking. Even if they're all reskins, and more than half are ancient.

Out of curiosity, what do you consider a 'reused old asset'? The mecha-horse if I recall isn't in game beyond one similar with the hitching post, but the model itself is in fact different. If you mean it was made before now, many Legion assets were made during late MoP/early WoD.. are those 'old' just because they were made before now?

[Coconut]

Out of curiosity, what do you consider a 'reused old asset'? The mecha-horse if I recall isn't in game beyond one similar with the hitching post, but the model itself is in fact different. If you mean it was made before now, many Legion assets were made during late MoP/early WoD.. are those 'old' just because they were made before now?

I mean it's old as in Blizzard doesn't need to dedicate extra development time to make it, in general. The horse is "new" for the game but they didn't spend any time on it now.

Some of them are also old as in "the model is so outdated players will be reluctant to use them even if they're super rare", hence they should add them soon if they're gonna add them at all

[Wolfheart9]

So even though time WAS spent on it to create it, it is old because they didn't use it right away, but in every other manner it's new. Gotcha.

The other one yea, the model has been used a fair bit, but still a nice color imo.

[Breccia]

Whoa, this is not what I expected to see. There are that many unused mount models? I had no idea.

[Coconut]

So even though time WAS spent on it to create it, it is old because they didn't use it right away, but in every other manner it's new. Gotcha.

The other one yea, the model has been used a fair bit, but still a nice color imo.

I don't understand what you're getting at. People saw that mount on mmo-champ before, got excited about it, and forgot it again. The feeling is not the same. It's also not quite at the art standards of the current expansion, though very close, so yeah, "old".

Also, Blizzard isn't using time right now to make these mounts. From a development perspective it's very important. It means that it doesn't really make much of a difference if they add two mounts or 60, if they don't have to make them now (i.e. take time away from Legion to invest in WoD patches to maintain subscriptions). They might as well add more old mounts, so people have the feeling that they constantly achieve something. Do you disagree with that?

[Coconut]

Whoa, this is not what I expected to see. There are that many unused mount models? I had no idea.

There are probably twice as many, but some of them are truly not that interesting...

Though, hmm... I think I forgot the extra yaks from MoP...

[Wolfheart9]

Yes. That is precisely what old means.

So every expansion is old. Every game is old. The new Metal Gear game is using art assets that were made 3 years ago, so that game is old. Movies are old as many scenes are done well over a year before their release. Beautiful logic.

[Coconut]

So every expansion is old. Every game is old. The new Metal Gear game is using art assets that were made 3 years ago, so that game is old. Beautiful logic.

Do you have an argument here, or just trying to pick a fight over silly straw men? If you don't care to have a meaningful conversation about the actual points of the thread, maybe there are better ways to spend your time?

Old is old. It's not bad, but it's old, there's no need to pick a bone about it, it is what it is. It's more about how long it takes to get it than the fact that it is "old".

[Wolfheart9]

Do you have an argument here, or just trying to pick a fight over silly straw men? If you don't care to have a meaningful conversation about the actual points of the thread, maybe there are better ways to spend your time?

Old is old. It's not bad, but it's old, there's no need to pick a bone about it, it is what it is. It's more about how long it takes to get it than the fact that it is "old".

No strawmen here, I'm just pointing out the oddity of 'if it was made before right now, it's old', because in that case every single form of entertainment outside of live performances are old, and using it in a negative context is rather foolish.

If you'll note, I agreed with you about the cloud serpent as it is a recolor. If the statement on all this was only about that mount, neat, but they're offering you a mount you can't get in the store, a mount that's unique, a mount that we haven't been able to get before, a mount of store quality level (As it was originally made for the store), and people are STILL complaining about it, when every single one of those things are bits that people have been foaming at the mouth for, and when Blizz actually delivers, it's still a bad thing. Fairly convinced now there's nothing they could do that wouldn't be seen as horrible in this community's eyes.

Should the grind not be quite so long? Nah, I don't think so, and hope they boost it some. Do I hope we keep getting mounts/toys/cosmetics from doing stuff like this? Yea, i do. I think it's a pretty decent system, and I personally have no problem with it as I'm not a 'NOW NOW NOW' guy, I'm okay with spending a bit of time in gaining something.

As I said, no straw man, and a legit part of the conversation here. I disagree with one of your points, and overall agree with the bulk of it.

[Coconut]

You say it's so unreasonable that people aren't going to care... yet, people put in at least that many runs, or an insane amount of hours, farming other mounts which aren't complained about to the degree that the timewalking mounts have been.

Look at things like Al'ar or Baron Rivendare's Deathcharger... Personally I have over 400 kills on both Kael'thas and Baron Rivendare/His son and I haven't had either one drop. Also, both mounts exist in the game in other forms. People don't complain about the time that it takes to obtain those...

You go on to call out the two mounts offered for Timewalking as old and reused... Yet, you create a list of mounts (with snazzy titles) that would be considered old and reused as well. Not a single mount on your list in unique outside of it's coloring.

So, that does that leave us? The complaint is now that there aren't enough choices to satisfy the player base.

While I appreciate the effort it took for you to create this list and post it... Pick an argument and stick with it. This jumble of random complaints that are (as I have laid out) mostly debunked... well, it's silly.

Yes, some people have put 400 kills into getting low drop mounts, but some also got them on first kill. Lottery gameplay works differently on a psychological level than a grind. With a lottery system it can always drop on that next kill, it has its own way of leading you along. A grind you can project in the future and decide if you'll do it or not.

I don't have a problem with the mounts being old. In fact, there are a lot of old mounts I would like to see, as made obvious by my list. But there's a huge difference between an "enticing reward" and an "off-putting reward". I was excited about grinding one of those mounts this week, or perhaps over two months. I am not excited to farm them over 5 months each. At least I'm a collector, but average players will not bother. They are worth 20 dungeon runs; they are not worth 120. Do you understand the difference?

If something's of relatively low value (like old mounts, old being relative here, as more recent recolors become more and more exciting), getting a lot of it makes it more appealing. In this case, people wouldn't do an insane grind for one mount, but might do several smaller grinds for a lot of mounts, and what Blizzard wants is for a majority of players to become interested in these events, no?

I am not contradicting myself in the slightest bit, so don't be so hasty to pat yourself on the back my friend!

[Wolfheart9]

Yes, some people have put 400 kills into getting low drop mounts, but some also got them on first kill. Lottery gameplay works differently on a psychological level than a grind. With a lottery system it can always drop on that next kill, it has its own way of leading you along. A grind you can project in the future and decide if you'll do it or not.

I don't have a problem with the mounts being old. In fact, there are a lot of old mounts I would like to see, as made obvious by my list. But there's a huge difference between an "enticing reward" and an "off-putting reward". I was excited about grinding one of those mounts this week, or perhaps over two months. I am not excited to farm them over 5 months each. At least I'm a collector, but average players will not bother. They are worth 20 dungeon runs; they are not worth 120. Do you understand the difference?

If something's of relatively low value (like old mounts, old being relative here, as more recent recolors become more and more exciting), getting a lot of it makes it more appealing. In this case, people wouldn't do an insane grind for one mount, but might do several smaller grinds for a lot of mounts, and what Blizzard wants is for a majority of players to become interested in these events, no?

I am not contradicting myself in the slightest bit, so don't be so hasty to pat yourself on the back my friend!

Not quite sure why the last line was there as now you're coming off as hostile? I never once said you were contradicting yourself, nor would I pat myself on the back for anything, I stated a disagreement in a discussion, those are still allowed are they not?

Once again, I agree with the bulk of your points, I would like to see a lot of the unused mounts show up, but I also understand that that the current mount collectors may be a bit grumpy over them putting in a system that would let others get another 20+ mounts towards their collection achievements when they previously had to do the extremely low drop chance ones just to match those numbers, so it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

If what you say is true and normal players won't bother with this, but collectors will, it will make the mounts have even more value won't it? Mind you I still think the grind time should be lower (Just like you), but I can see the benefit to it as well, just to have another perspective out there.

[Coconut]

No strawmen here, I'm just pointing out the oddity of 'if it was made before right now, it's old', because in that case every single form of entertainment outside of live performances are old, and using it in a negative context is rather foolish.

If you'll note, I agreed with you about the cloud serpent as it is a recolor. If the statement on all this was only about that mount, neat, but they're offering you a mount you can't get in the store, a mount that's unique, a mount that we haven't been able to get before, a mount of store quality level (As it was originally made for the store), and people are STILL complaining about it, when every single one of those things are bits that people have been foaming at the mouth for, and when Blizz actually delivers, it's still a bad thing. Fairly convinced now there's nothing they could do that wouldn't be seen as horrible in this community's eyes.

Should the grind not be quite so long? Nah, I don't think so, and hope they boost it some. Do I hope we keep getting mounts/toys/cosmetics from doing stuff like this? Yea, i do. I think it's a pretty decent system, and I personally have no problem with it as I'm not a 'NOW NOW NOW' guy, I'm okay with spending a bit of time in gaining something.

As I said, no straw man, and a legit part of the conversation here. I disagree with one of your points, and overall agree with the bulk of it.

Don't worry, I'm not foaming at the mouth Never was.

I'm not complaining about the mount either, I'm making an estimate of how average players will receive it. It's a nice mount. To be perfectly objective, it was made for the store, yes, but 1. it was not really a mount, just the mount spell of a hitching post toy, and 2. it didn't make it to the store eventually, a more polished version was created with the same concept, the Warforged Nightmare, which means that it really wasn't "store quality" - it was laid aside and something better was made and sold.

I do not say this to bash the mount or to complain, I say it because it's an objective fact, and when we try to look at things we have to keep a level head and be objective. We don't foam at the mouth, but we don't exaggerate either.

It's an ok mount, but is it a mount that will make 1 million people resub right now with the advent of 6.2.2 because if they start farming this weekend they might get in 5 months? No, absolutely not! Would it make more people resub this week if they could get it this week? Yeah, that's a little more like it.

- - - Updated - - -

Not quite sure why the last line was there as now you're coming off as hostile? I never once said you were contradicting yourself, nor would I pat myself on the back for anything, I stated a disagreement in a discussion, those are still allowed are they not?

Once again, I agree with the bulk of your points, I would like to see a lot of the unused mounts show up, but I also understand that that the current mount collectors may be a bit grumpy over them putting in a system that would let others get another 20+ mounts towards their collection achievements when they previously had to do the extremely low drop chance ones just to match those numbers, so it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

If what you say is true and normal players won't bother with this, but collectors will, it will make the mounts have even more value won't it? Mind you I still think the grind time should be lower (Just like you), but I can see the benefit to it as well, just to have another perspective out there.

That reply was to Asmodias, and the last line was because he thought he "debunked" my "jumble of random complaints"

My problem as a collector and as a player is not with the value of mounts... I collect because I find them exciting and I like the hunt. I don't feel better than others for the rare mounts I have, and I'm not happy some of them were removed for example, and other people can't get them.

I care about normal players involvement firstly because I want to be a normal player too, I feel less and less comfortable doing insane crap for mounts, and second because I think it is sane of Blizzard to try to use its assets better to attract players. They lost a lot of subs recently, and they should look to attract and keep more players. This would be good for the game, but will not happen with a 5 months grind mount few will be interested with.