warhammer of arrogance

[Deleted]

In the start of HFC, I'd seen a lot of sites listing the 1h mace from Archimonde (gavel of eredar) as BiS for holy paladin. Thesedays it seems like almost everyone is going with the 2h mace from tyrant. I've been checking several amories of some of the best Hpaladins in the world, including method/serenity and paragons paladins and others from top 50 guilds etc. They're all using the 2h from Tyrant.
I am by no means into maths or theorycrafting, numbers aren't my strong side. I've been told that theres a post in one of the large paladin threads explaining about the 2h mace (and most likely other BiS items), possibly written by Aladya, but I can't find it.
Is there anyone able to explain why the 2h mace is BiS or why it gets picked over the 1h from archimonde? Or if you're able to provide a link to the post somewhere explaining it. I always end up on page 1 of the threads through search results :/

Thank you in advance.

[Deleted]

It's still not BiS. But the gavel is really hard to obtain, requires a proper off-hand and has quite more loot-competition because it's BiS for so many people. On the other hand, the Warhammer has the highest amount of critical strike achievable (put aside double Socket on Weapon+Offhand), making it relatively better compared to the gavel for paladins than for any other class. In other words: The Gavel is BiS, but the least upgrade out of all casters for Holy Paladins compared to their second best option. Also: Healers don't need gear.

[Deleted]

I think it's mostly because the warhammer has crit + haste on it which are 2 of the best stats and the gavel hast haste multi. Even though it has 5 more itemlevel (and therefore more spellpower) its also weaker because of the offhand options, which are the Reaver shield (Crit/multi 705), the gorefiend offhand (crit/multi 710), the velhari shield (mastery/multi 715) or the socrethar shield (crit/haste 710). As you can see there is only 1 good option with the socrethar shield but it has 5 less itemlevel than the warhammer. Tbh im not really sure whats best so lets calculate a bit.

If you wanna speak Stats:

Warhammer of Arrogance:
+369 Intellect
+553 Stamina
+308 Critical Strike (2.8% @ L100)
+182 Haste (2.02% @ L100)
+2111 Spell Power

or

Gavel of the Eredar
+166 Intellect
+249 Stamina
+148 Haste (1.64% @ L100)
+2214 Spell Power
+72 Multistrike (1.09% @ L100)

+

Soulwarped Tower Shield
+198 [Strength or Intellect]
+297 Stamina
+75 Critical Strike (0.68% @ L100)
+188 Haste (2.09% @ L100)


If you take the Statweights from the other thread (thanks to Alor):

• Intellect: 1
• Crit above mana softcap, below crit softcap: 0.96
• Spellpower: 0.91
• Crit above mana softcap, above crit softcap: 0.77
• Mastery: 0.74
• Haste above mana softcap, below haste softcap: 0.74
• Crit below mana softcap, below crit softcap: 0.65
• Multistrike: 0.65
• Versatility: 0.65
• Spirit below mana softcap: 0.58
• Crit below mana softcap, above crit softcap: 0.53
• Haste below mana softcap, below haste softcap: 0.41
• Haste above mana softcap, above haste softcap: 0.40
• Haste below mana cap, above haste soft cap: 0.18
• Spirit above mana cap: 0.12

When we now assume you are below crit cap and below haste cap and above the mana cap you get the weights:

Warhammer: 2720,37

Gavel + Shield: 2742.43

As you can see the Gavel + Shield is stronger in stats, but personally I like more crit so I'm gonna take the Warhammer until i get something warforged or with socket.

[Deleted]

Thanks for info. Can you explain the means of crit and haste softcaps plz? Whats the cap for hpala? I kind of lost track of it since they removed reforge. I assume mana softcap is when you're comfy with spirit/mana regen. I wanna link my palas armory, but I logged out in dps gear and Im not at home atm to relog. I have t18 4pc and class trinket, and aiming for crit and haste as much as I can. Crit above haste ofc. I kind of feel comfy with my mana, finally obtained demonic phylactery few days ago after many coins wasted, and it helps a lot.

[Deleted]

If you look here http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...dition/page137 there is currently a discussion going on about soft caps and the stat weights, just read a few sites back and you should understand what they are talking about.

[Deleted]

I read it, and there was a lot of useful information. Still a lot people says different things, and I'm still wondering exactly what makes the 2h mace a better choice for so many people, some of those paladins I've checked have Archimonde pretty much on farm. Does the 300 crit (speaking of HC versions) really outweights the 100 spellpower I've lost? If you read the numbers/statweights, they seem to be very specific. But I'm not sure if/how much they account for how crit works for us, Im thinking of IoL. So, even if I lose a chunk of spellpower, the higher crit and thus more likely IoL procs outweights it?
Reckon you could check my armory and tell me if it seems worth it? Im using the 2h mace, hc not wf or with socket.

eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/draenor/Serafex/advanced
I used to have the gavel of eredar, hc version:
166 int
249 haste
2.214 spellpower
72 multistrike

and Felforged aegis, hc wf:
200 int
300 stam
156 crit
110 multi

So basically I've lost 103 spellpower, gained 3 int, gained 48 haste, gained 152 crit.
It seems like a large gain of my best secondary stats, at the loss of 103 spellpower. What do you think?
I guess we can never get enough crit, assuming theres a crit softcap at, I think it was 50% from what I read on that link, which doesn't seem realistic go reach.
Some guildies insist that the mace is a downgrade, and I disagree because crit is so valuable for Hpaladins, and haste on gear scales with haste buff from 4pc+it lowers CD of HS. On the other hand, I dont have much use for multistrike which is on both the gavel and my shield.
All those "top" paladins out there using the 2h mace can't be wrong, no?

[jason1975]

Why are people using the 2H?

Because 2 handed hammer awesomeness . . .

/endthread

[Deleted]

Why are people using the 2H?

Because 2 handed hammer awesomeness . . .

/endthread

It's super awesome. Especially with my current transmog. It's been difficult to find a nice shield that matched. The current 2h transmog looks pretty good in my own opinion.
I'd like to think that there's more to it than the looks, though. For me, Hpaladin with a (1h wep and) shield has always been a cool looking thing!

[Unir]

Why are people using the 2H?

Because 2 handed hammer awesomeness . . .

/endthread

There is also that.

I couldn't get the Warhammer to drop for ever and ever. Finally it dropped, given to me - hooray! FINALLY some two-handed awesome healing of win again.

Two bosses later I coin-rolled the freaking Gavel off of Archi, and I already had the Mannoroth offhand in a bag.

My two-handed healing awesomeness lasted exactly 45 minutes. *#(@#$*!!

[Virsta1]

Archimonde mace is BiS. It just hasn't dropped. 6 Archimonde kills. we have seen zero drop and no one has coined it.

[tclphz]

There is also that.

I couldn't get the Warhammer to drop for ever and ever. Finally it dropped, given to me - hooray! FINALLY some two-handed awesome healing of win again.

Two bosses later I coin-rolled the freaking Gavel off of Archi, and I already had the Mannoroth offhand in a bag.

My two-handed healing awesomeness lasted exactly 45 minutes. *#(@#$*!!

I have some 716 offhand and the gavel, I refuse to move on. This 2H is too dreamy. Maybe if I get a mythic offhand.

[Unir]

The interesting thing is that if you cannot get access to the Archi mace on heroic, the sword from Council on Mythic is the same ilvl but with better secondary stats.

I recently got that one, too.

Weapons weapons weapons, and not a fucking phylactery in sight. My life in hell.

[Deleted]

It's still not BiS. But the gavel is really hard to obtain, requires a proper off-hand and has quite more loot-competition because it's BiS for so many people. On the other hand, the Warhammer has the highest amount of critical strike achievable (put aside double Socket on Weapon+Offhand), making it relatively better compared to the gavel for paladins than for any other class. In other words: The Gavel is BiS, but the least upgrade out of all casters for Holy Paladins compared to their second best option. Also: Healers don't need gear.

Can confirm this. all casters has a BiS weapon from archimonde, mostly because of the higher spell power, this means it'll take a long time before every1 has full BiS.
And with the 2h available from tyrant, some paladins might choose to pass on it because the 2H mace is quite close to BiS.

[Deleted]

Can confirm this. all casters has a BiS weapon from archimonde, mostly because of the higher spell power, this means it'll take a long time before every1 has full BiS.
And with the 2h available from tyrant, some paladins might choose to pass on it because the 2H mace is quite close to BiS.

Would always pass it if you'd play holy buddy

[PaladinMesser]

Why are people using the 2H?

Because 2 handed hammer awesomeness . . .

/endthread

I agree with this

[spikeh]

For me, I don't consider any gear that drops from Archimonde in my BiS list because the whole point of the gear is to clear the raid. Once he's dead, I don't care what drops from him.

I also don't subscribe to the higher item level wins gearing preference. I'd take crit over 5 item levels worth of intellect and a far inferior secondary stat.

Oh and healing with a 2H mace is just awesome!

[Deleted]

For me, I don't consider any gear that drops from Archimonde in my BiS list because the whole point of the gear is to clear the raid. Once he's dead, I don't care what drops from him.

I also don't subscribe to the higher item level wins gearing preference. I'd take crit over 5 item levels worth of intellect and a far inferior secondary stat.

Oh and healing with a 2H mace is just awesome!

1. is what everyone does.
2. is not only your subjective guesswork, but also pretty much proven by TC. A socket is often more worth than 10 itemlevel. Also, if you feel taking crit "over itemlevel" is good because it makes your healing more consistent, well guess what spellpower does.

But I absolutely agree on the 2h weapon thing. CM 2h sword x-mog suits t18 mythic so well!