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  1. #41
    Herald of the Titans Vintersol's Avatar
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    Make totems act like stances *cough*
    It's high noon.
    Personality: INTJ

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Hots View Post
    I always facepalm when people say that totems are outdated and should be removed. Totems defines the Shaman class, is not outdated and a very unique and fun gameplay.

    Play another class, casue you are apparently playing the wrong one for you.
    Monks have better totems than shaman.

  3. #43
    the only <24sec second ranged interrupt for a caster, and the only ranged caster interrupt <24sec
    It's also the only < 30 yard ranged interrupt. 25 yards may seem like ranged but you'd be surprised how often you are further than 25 yards as a ranged DPS. Like you said; it's the trade off. It may be a shorter CD interrupt but it is also a shorter lockout and shorter range. I'm not saying it's bad; it's a fairly good interrupt, just that it's not as incredible as you make it sound.

    I see no-one mentioning here that Polymorph heals the target it's placed on
    Because in PvP you rarely hard CC a target that isn't at or near full life already so the fact that Poly heals the target is kind of irrelevant; especially given it has no CD.

    but how can you be so blind to ignore the fact that not only is Capacitor potentially ranged or able to be cast from a safe zone compared to leg sweep, but is still the full 5 seconds compared to shadowfury's 3
    Those aren't the actual complaints. A stun is only as good as it's execution and Capacitor is, simply put, very easy to avoid. Shadowfury may be only 3 secs but it is impossible to avoid the stun from Shadowfury (as in actually move out of it). You can move out of Capacitor or even just kill the totem. It makes sense that Shadowfury is better than Capacitor as it takes a Talent choice. What doesn't make sense is that to make Capacitor even somewhat competitive you need to take a Talent choice as well; and Capacitor can still be killed. At the very least everyone will see it coming; no one sees a Shadowfury until it's too late.

    Yes the 5 second stun is great but it could be a 15 second stun and it wouldn't matter if you couldn't hit anyone with it.
    Last edited by Ximaus; 2015-09-25 at 02:28 PM.

  4. #44
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Bjorsen View Post
    This gripe could work for almost any class, sorry your dps specs are currently under preforming lol. Seriously, so many mechanics in this game are similar because there are only so many things you can do.
    Fireball, Frostbolt, Shadowbolt, Mindblast, Smite, Holy Fire and many many more are all the same by that measure. Not saying it isn't true though.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Ximaus View Post
    snip
    The whole post you seem to be obsessed with absolutes, either something is incredible or awful. Something can be good or useful without being the best or the worst in their respective class.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by wordup View Post
    The whole post you seem to be obsessed with absolutes, either something is incredible or awful. Something can be good or useful without being the best or the worst in their respective class.
    Quite the opposite. My point is that just because an ability has advantages doesn't mean the disadvantages don't outweigh them. You listed the advantages of a few abilities and I wholeheartedly agree. I do not; however, agree that the complaints don't already take those advantages into account. Yes there is some exaggeration but it is not exaggeration to say that Wind Shear is balanced around a shorter lockout and shorter range or to say that Capacitor Totem is easier to avoid than any other stun in the game.

  7. #47
    But at least you have blood lu......oh wait.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Ximaus View Post
    Quite the opposite. My point is that just because an ability has advantages doesn't mean the disadvantages don't outweigh them. You listed the advantages of a few abilities and I wholeheartedly agree. I do not; however, agree that the complaints don't already take those advantages into account. Yes there is some exaggeration but it is not exaggeration to say that Wind Shear is balanced around a shorter lockout and shorter range or to say that Capacitor Totem is easier to avoid than any other stun in the game.
    Arbitrarily assigning weight toward what advantages/disadvantages are applicable on an ability that has variable uses across both PvE and PvP and by extension different encounters and different matchups is something neither you nor I have the time, effort or authority to do so I feel it's quite hollow to use that as a stance to undermine when an ability has its uses. From my personal PvE standpoint they are unique enough especially when in a toolkit so varied that I think it's suitable that they aren't necessarily equal to equivalents.

    In particular when you talk about Wind Shear, ranged interrupt as a melee is huge, half the CD of alternative ranged interrupt is huge, -5yd range is not; nor is the lockout.
    Last edited by wordup; 2015-09-26 at 02:20 AM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by wordup View Post
    Arbitrarily assigning weight toward what advantages/disadvantages are applicable on an ability that has variable uses across both PvE and PvP and by extension different encounters and different matchups is something neither you nor I have the time, effort or authority to do so I feel it's quite hollow to use that as a stance to undermine when an ability has its uses. From my personal PvE standpoint they are unique enough especially when in a toolkit so varied that I think it's suitable that they aren't necessarily equal to equivalents.
    That's kind of my point. I didn't assign weight towards them; I simply said just because it has advantages doesn't mean they can't be outweighed by the disadvantages. Without commenting at all on the overall usefulness of the ability I simply stated that while it may have the advantages you brought up there are valid counter arguments about the cons weighing the ability down. You initially argued as though people were making wildly inaccurate statements just because the abilities have usefulness in X or Y situation.

    Most of the complaints about the utility comes from a PvP perspective; not a PvE perspective. I don't think anyone can argue how much utility Shamans have in PvE.

    In particular when you talk about Wind Shear, ranged interrupt as a melee is huge, half the CD of alternative ranged interrupt is huge, -5yd range is not; nor is the lockout.
    Wind Shear is a 12 sec CD because it only locks out for 3 secs. When it locks out for 4 secs it is a 15 sec CD. That is a 60% shorter CD than ranged interrupts relative to the lockout period. As a direct result it is a 25 yard ranged interrupt as opposed to a 40 yard ranged interrupt (I don't know where you got -5 yards). Guess what? 40 yards is also 60% higher than 25 yards. Wind Shear is fairly good for a melee interrupt but mediocre for a ranged interrupt. It's one of those things like the 5 sec lock out from the Rogue interrupt, or double interrupts from DKs, etc.

    I didn't say anything about this negating the usefulness of Wind Shear; just that rather than some amazing interrupt, it is balanced accordingly.
    Last edited by Ximaus; 2015-09-26 at 03:42 AM.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Ximaus View Post
    Wind Shear is a 12 sec CD because it only locks out for 3 secs. When it locks out for 4 secs it is a 15 sec CD. That is a 60% shorter CD than ranged interrupts relative to the lockout period. As a direct result it is a 25 yard ranged interrupt as opposed to a 40 yard ranged interrupt (I don't know where you got -5 yards). Guess what? 40 yards is also 60% higher than 25 yards.

    I didn't say anything about this negating the usefulness of Wind Shear; just that rather than some amazing interrupt, it is balanced accordingly.
    Condescension is unnecessary when the number you relate to it is "<30 yards". Being half the cooldown of other ranged interrupts for a caster is enormous. For PvE it literally allows having a caster being put into a rotation for interrupts that no other ranged can, also allows a healer a ranged interrupt that can do so that no other spec can cover. It even allows for a melee to fill the role of ranged interrupt that no other melee can. All of those things make Wind Shear objectively the most versatile interrupt available, and if the lockout time is the only reason it's bad, there's a glyph available to address that. No-one takes that glyph because having a 12sec interrupt in a world of 15/24sec is incredibly valuable. There's even a glyph to put Wind Shear at 30yard range, no-one takes that either because anyone half decent is able to position themselves accordingly when interrupts are a factor. Assigning numerical interactions (as if, given you state yourself the positives do not outweigh the negatives of cap because of having to pre-emptively use which can't numerically be assigned) based on range is ludicrous.

  11. #51
    Being half the cooldown of other ranged interrupts for a caster is enormous. For PvE it literally allows having a caster being put into a rotation for interrupts that no other ranged can,
    I'm not trying to be condescending; I'm being fairly objective. I feel like PvP players often complain about X, Y, or Z ability which leads to PvE players arguing why X, Y, and Z ability are great for PvE. Speaking in terms of PvE, there is no "best" or "worst" interrupt; they all have their own utility. Wind Shear is very helpful in PvE (again most complaints about Shaman utility tend to refer to PvP). While people usually have melee get the interrupts, I don't know any interrupt rotations that rely solely on everyone having 15 sec or less interrupts. Not in this tier or the last (unlike Mists).

    Interrupt rotations in PvE are generally needed because the ability has no CD and is only being prevented by the lockout. There are no prominent ones like that in the current tier. In such a situation; however, the lower lockout time directly cancels the lower CD. This was designed on purpose. In current tier you are typically waiting on CDs so lockout duration has become less of an issue. It also means that you need fewer interrupters and less of a need for low CD interrupts.

    All of those things make Wind Shear objectively the most versatile interrupt available, and if the lockout time is the only reason it's bad, there's a glyph available to address that. No-one takes that glyph because having a 12sec interrupt in a world of 15/24sec is incredibly valuable.
    The utility of Wind Shear is fairly balanced given the disadvantages they added to it. I wasn't bringing up the numbers to say that's exactly how they balanced it but just to show that they did proportionally lower the range / lockout on the interrupt. Whether or not you can Glyph the ability to be a longer range or lockout isn't really a baseline advantage when you have to use a Glyph slot to do so.

    Healers arguably get the best deal but even Enhancement Shamans have a fairly strong interrupt. That being said; the other melee classes typically get something interrupt or stun related in exchange for their melee range to help balance it out.

    I'm not really trying to argue here because Wind Shear was one randomly thrown in complaint and I agree the original statement was fairly baseless; but even it is not as incredible as it might seem.
    Last edited by Ximaus; 2015-09-26 at 05:13 AM.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by wordup View Post

    In particular when you talk about Wind Shear, ranged interrupt as a melee is huge, half the CD of alternative ranged interrupt is huge, -5yd range is not; nor is the lockout.
    So ranged interrupts are good for melee..It's not like other melle have better ways to of closing gaps or ranged stuns or other things... I mean warriors have a gap closer that stun IFRC...Death grip interrupts most caster just by moving them....

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by sidenorna View Post
    So ranged interrupts are good for melee..It's not like other melle have better ways to of closing gaps or ranged stuns or other things... I mean warriors have a gap closer that stun IFRC...Death grip interrupts most caster just by moving them....
    How are any of those points relevant to the strength of Wind Shear as an interrupt?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ximaus View Post
    While people usually have melee get the interrupts, I don't know any interrupt rotations that rely solely on everyone having 15 sec or less interrupts. Not in this tier or the last (unlike Mists).
    Off the top of my head Imperator, Oregorger, Socrethar and Mannoroth all require <15sec interrupt rotations; there is possibly more but they're ones that stand out in my memory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ximaus View Post
    Interrupt rotations in PvE are generally needed because the ability has no CD and is only being prevented by the lockout. There are no prominent ones like that in the current tier. In such a situation; however, the lower lockout time directly cancels the lower CD. This was designed on purpose. In current tier you are typically waiting on CDs so lockout duration has become less of an issue. It also means that you need fewer interrupters and less of a need for low CD interrupts.
    Refer to above. The ranged aspect is also invaluable on two out of the four encounters I listed because of movement occurring in them.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by wordup View Post
    How are any of those points relevant to the strength of Wind Shear as an interrupt?
    Because 99% of all PVE encounters don't care about range for interrupts and in PVP many classes have ranged interrupts with upsides that let's players you know kill other players.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by sidenorna View Post
    Because 99% of all PVE encounters don't care about range for interrupts and in PVP many classes have ranged interrupts with upsides that let's players you know kill other players.
    That is, still, completely irrelevant when discussing the strength of Wind Shear as an ability on its own.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by wordup View Post
    That is, still, completely irrelevant when discussing the strength of Wind Shear as an ability on its own.
    How is it completely irrelevant? In pve Wind Shear's range in pointless and in PVP many other classes have better interrupts based on the goal of PVP. In a topic based on is shaman ability X as good class Y's ability Z. I told you no, it is not and showed you why. You simply stated it's still good.

    Your posts come off like this. Questions "Is Trump the richest person in the world?" Your anwser is yes, he has nine billion dollars. Anyone else reply...But THe Koch bothers each have 30 billions dollars..Your reply. Irrelevant to how rich Trump is...

    But let's be even more blunt. in a thread comparing abilities of classes what would it take to change your mind on how strong a shaman's ability is compared to other classes? Cause clearly it's not showing how other classes have abilities that are functionally the same or better based on the setting.
    Last edited by sidenorna; 2015-09-26 at 08:52 PM.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by sidenorna View Post
    In pve Wind Shear's range in pointless
    Situations where Wind Shear's range is useful in PvE from this expansion alone:

    - Brackenspore, can get the large add's first cast interrupted while he's not yet in melee.
    - Mar'gok, can interrupt a Warmage cast while running to it, saving raid damage.
    - Oregorger, can get a clutch interrupt if raid is out of position when coming out of a rolling phase.
    - Blast Furnace, can stay DPSing on target and still throw out an interrupt on a Slag to get it into position. Can also stay DPSing on target and can interrupt a Cauterize at range.
    - Blackhand, allows you to get interrupts out while flying through air on way to rafters, which can net you one more interrupt use overall.
    - Hellfire Assault, can interrupt a Felcaster at range to bring him into cleave range while not losing main target DPS.
    - Mythic Kilrogg, have to bring Hulks out of melee when they die because they explode, which means melee won't be in range if last cast happens,which makes shear the most powerful interrupt for the mechanic.
    - Gorefiend, unlikely scenario but if tank's interrupt is on CD and no other melee are available and you're out of range, you can still Shear the Enraged Spirit's shout.
    - Socrethar, if there's an add freecasting at range you can stop a volley or a debuff application.
    - Xhul'horac, boss has been moved but imps aren't dead yet, you can stay on the boss and still get interrupts from range to stop them from casting and bring them into melee.
    -Archimonde, can get safely far away from Allure while still in interrupt range for add's Flames of Argus.

    And then don't even get me started on other tiers. Nefarian in BWD, Wind Shear had a 6 second CD back then and was still ranged. When you got the debuff and had to jump off your pillar into the lava, you wouldn't need a backup interrupt to cover you. It made that fight so much easier.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by sidenorna View Post
    How is it completely irrelevant? In pve Wind Shear's range in pointless and in PVP many other classes have better interrupts based on the goal of PVP. In a topic based on is shaman ability X as good class Y's ability Z. I told you no, it is not and showed you why. You simply stated it's still good.

    Your posts come off like this. Questions "Is Trump the richest person in the world?" Your anwser is yes, he has nine billion dollars. Anyone else reply...But THe Koch bothers each have 30 billions dollars..Your reply. Irrelevant to how rich Trump is...

    But let's be even more blunt. in a thread comparing abilities of classes what would it take to change your mind on how strong a shaman's ability is compared to other classes? Cause clearly it's not showing how other classes have abilities that are functionally the same or better based on the setting.
    No, you're looking at this completely incorrectly. I stated that Wind Shear is good. Your justifcation for it not being good is "other classes have other abilities that make their interrupt better because they can use those too"; that has nothing to do with whether Wind Shear, on its own, is a good interrupt (which it is and you have done nothing to refute that other than point out other, different abilities that aren't interrupts have possible effects on some things that need to be interrupted).

    Let's take a look at one of your examples, you state Death Grip. How is death grip going to interrupt SBV on Mannoroth? Answer: It's not, because it's immune to displacement. You are looking at abilities that have completely different applications and rulesets to objectively dispute how good of an interrupt Wind Shear is, which is irrelevant, because you should be looking at it in an arena of equal skills in the same bracket, i.e. interrupts.

    You seem to be more interested in dragging along the tired "my class is the worst of them all!" trope than actually commenting on these abilities. If you look at the title of the thread, it says specifically, "why are so many shaman abilities inferior", not, "why is the shaman toolkit inferior" which is how you're trying to go about this.
    Last edited by wordup; 2015-09-26 at 10:55 PM.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by wordup View Post
    No, you're looking at this completely incorrectly. I stated that Wind Shear is good. Your justifcation for it not being good is "other classes have other abilities that make their interrupt better because they can use those too"; that has nothing to do with whether Wind Shear, on its own, is a good interrupt (which it is and you have done nothing to refute that other than point out other, different abilities that aren't interrupts have possible effects on some things that need to be interrupted).

    Let's take a look at one of your examples, you state Death Grip. How is death grip going to interrupt SBV on Mannoroth? Answer: It's not, because it's immune to displacement. You are looking at abilities that have completely different applications and rulesets to objectively dispute how good of an interrupt Wind Shear is, which is irrelevant, because you should be looking at it in an arena of equal skills in the same bracket, i.e. interrupts.

    You seem to be more interested in dragging along the tired "my class is the worst of them all!" trope than actually commenting on these abilities. If you look at the title of the thread, it says specifically, "why are so many shaman abilities inferior", not, "why is the shaman toolkit inferior" which is how you're trying to go about this.

    So when Blizzard on stage at blizzcon stated that in the next Expack(WoD at the time) Enh shaman has too many damage sources, WoD comes along and nearly nothing changes.So during the ability pruning, they skipped enh shaman a class that they openly said the class has an issue. They are going to fix it in legion...Like they said they would fix shaman in every expack and still shaman are almost always forgotten.

    I do not think the shaman is the worst class for no reason. I think the shaman is the worst class for reason that BLIZZARD has said.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tore View Post
    Situations where Wind Shear's range is useful in PvE from this expansion alone:

    - Brackenspore, can get the large add's first cast interrupted while he's not yet in melee.
    - Mar'gok, can interrupt a Warmage cast while running to it, saving raid damage.
    - Oregorger, can get a clutch interrupt if raid is out of position when coming out of a rolling phase.
    - Blast Furnace, can stay DPSing on target and still throw out an interrupt on a Slag to get it into position. Can also stay DPSing on target and can interrupt a Cauterize at range.
    - Blackhand, allows you to get interrupts out while flying through air on way to rafters, which can net you one more interrupt use overall.
    - Hellfire Assault, can interrupt a Felcaster at range to bring him into cleave range while not losing main target DPS.
    - Mythic Kilrogg, have to bring Hulks out of melee when they die because they explode, which means melee won't be in range if last cast happens,which makes shear the most powerful interrupt for the mechanic.
    - Gorefiend, unlikely scenario but if tank's interrupt is on CD and no other melee are available and you're out of range, you can still Shear the Enraged Spirit's shout.
    - Socrethar, if there's an add freecasting at range you can stop a volley or a debuff application.
    - Xhul'horac, boss has been moved but imps aren't dead yet, you can stay on the boss and still get interrupts from range to stop them from casting and bring them into melee.
    -Archimonde, can get safely far away from Allure while still in interrupt range for add's Flames of Argus.

    And then don't even get me started on other tiers. Nefarian in BWD, Wind Shear had a 6 second CD back then and was still ranged. When you got the debuff and had to jump off your pillar into the lava, you wouldn't need a backup interrupt to cover you. It made that fight so much easier.
    And so can hunters,Mages.....

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by sidenorna View Post
    So when Blizzard on stage at blizzcon stated that in the next Expack(WoD at the time) Enh shaman has too many damage sources, WoD comes along and nearly nothing changes.So during the ability pruning, they skipped enh shaman a class that they openly said the class has an issue. They are going to fix it in legion...Like they said they would fix shaman in every expack and still shaman are almost always forgotten.

    I do not think the shaman is the worst class for no reason. I think the shaman is the worst class for reason that BLIZZARD has said.
    How does the number of damage sources refute how good Wind Shear is as an interrupt?

    And on the topic of hunters/mages being able to, point already adressed, Wind Shear has half the cooldown of Counterspell/Counter Shot, which is important.

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