@Blizz Devs-Future of WOW-10-man raids

[Deleted]

We're arguably at the end-stretch of the expac at the moment. No more tiers, the race to world first ended long time ago.
We still have only about 300-ish guilds who are 13/13M.

Yet here we are debating about how important it is to have the bleeding-edge absolute balance in difficulty for those 300 guilds. Let's bend over backwards to give them the best possible raiding experience and screw everyone else. It just makes no sense at all.

Just make everything flex. Who the fuck cares if the top end hardcore 24/7raiders think it's too easy or if there's a raid comp that allows a bit of cheese. Fuck 'em.

For the vast majority of 'raiders': HC guilds/pugs finished the tier long time ago and the only solution for them is to either merge with bunch of random assholes from the guild they've been competing against (especially on recruitment front) - or fold everything until next tier.

Lot of the guilds on my server have chosen to fold - we have only handful of guilds who actually have any mythic kills at all and majority of them are closing as well due to attrition/recruitment stress. After a quick look at wowprogress, this seems to be the case on most 'normal' servers (the few High Pop/Full Pop servers seem to be still thriving due to having critical mass of players).

Blizzard stopped merging realms so you basically SOL unless you pay for a move.

Fuck strict 20 man - just make everything flex sized and make Mythic "harder version of HC" (i.e. add mechanic or two to each boss - that's it)

[KyrtF]

Right now, the Devs are trying to balance the flex format while also delivering the "perfect" experience for 20 man Mythic. My argument is that they could do a better job balancing the flex system if they didn't have to worry about the strict 20 man experience for Mythic only. Also, having the flex format set to a small variance of 10-15 people allows balance of flex for all difficulty modes to be even easier to accomplish.

A flex format of 10-15 allows all classes and buffs to be represented. Mythic currently being 20 man has nothing to do with that. Furthermore, having smaller raid sizes keeps the ridiculous cheesing (stacking of OP classes, see Hunter) in check. If you want top end raiding to be prestigious, large exploitable rosters are not the way to go.

A flex format of 10-15 allows all classes and buffs to be represented if the group in question is willing to accept a very tight degree of rigidity. It's a judgement call as to whether even hardcore groups should be subjected to that....and Blizzard probably made the correct choice in allowing the flexibility that comes with a larger size...20s allow for a recent probability that the group can have all buffs and all classes without imposing too arduous a task. True, getting 20 people is harder than getting 15 but it also allows more room for multiples.

And no....having Flex won't make things easier to balance. Nor does the need to balance a fixed Mythic size have anything to do with the balance in Flex. The issue with a Fixed size in Mythic is simple....players don't want to be bothered with the roster boss but still want to try Mythic. They want the prestige of Mythic but don't have the players necessary to take part.

The frustration is understandable. But it also ignores why Blizzard chose this design for Mythic. Essentially....if you aren't willing or able to form a group, then Mythic isn't intended for you. Mythic...as it is currently designed and implemented...requires a fixed size. The 10/25 split had its own issues, its own problems and Blizzard solved them by implanting Flex for most and a Fixed size for the hardcore.

There is some flexibility in what that fixed size may be, but Blizzard settled on 20. So far, the main objection seems to be that players resent having to form 20 man groups. But even with Flex, Blizzard has a group wanting Flex to go down to 8 man raids. It's doubtful such problems would cease if Blizzard switched to 15 man Mythic....players would simply want 10 man.

Given Blizzards criteria and what they wanted from Mythic, a 20 man fixed raid size was best. It gave Blizzard the fixed raid size they wanted and needed, it gave Mythic groups a certain degree of flexibility in raid composition.

But they've presented such answers before and this was never good enough. Still, maybe Blizzard will change the role for Mythic in Legion....but, if they do, won't that cost it it's prestige and desireability?

[Deleted]

The frustration is understandable. But it also ignores why Blizzard chose this design for Mythic. Essentially....if you aren't willing or able to form a group, then Mythic isn't intended for you. Mythic...as it is currently designed and implemented...requires a fixed size.

In the old days you'd have guilds on every raiding level. Players would move from lower tier guilds to higher tier guilds.

Now there's nothing, nothing, nothing -and then whammo! An absolute 20-man fixed barrier of entry.
There are no "feeder" guilds anymore. Everything below mythic is just one huge PUG-pool, there's really no need to guild up.

It's no wonder mythic guilds are struggling with recruitment - it's not for all, true. But there's really no way to test if it's for you.
You kinda have to know and be ready from the get-go. Not many can be bothered with that. The raiding scene is pretty much dead in the water at the moment.

[Clash the DK]

A flex format of 10-15 allows all classes and buffs to be represented if the group in question is willing to accept a very tight degree of rigidity. It's a judgement call as to whether even hardcore groups should be subjected to that....and Blizzard probably made the correct choice in allowing the flexibility that comes with a larger size...20s allow for a recent probability that the group can have all buffs and all classes without imposing too arduous a task. True, getting 20 people is harder than getting 15 but it also allows more room for multiples.

And no....having Flex won't make things easier to balance. Nor does the need to balance a fixed Mythic size have anything to do with the balance in Flex. The issue with a Fixed size in Mythic is simple....players don't want to be bothered with the roster boss but still want to try Mythic. They want the prestige of Mythic but don't have the players necessary to take part.

The frustration is understandable. But it also ignores why Blizzard chose this design for Mythic. Essentially....if you aren't willing or able to form a group, then Mythic isn't intended for you. Mythic...as it is currently designed and implemented...requires a fixed size. The 10/25 split had its own issues, its own problems and Blizzard solved them by implanting Flex for most and a Fixed size for the hardcore.

There is some flexibility in what that fixed size may be, but Blizzard settled on 20. So far, the main objection seems to be that players resent having to form 20 man groups. But even with Flex, Blizzard has a group wanting Flex to go down to 8 man raids. It's doubtful such problems would cease if Blizzard switched to 15 man Mythic....players would simply want 10 man.

Given Blizzards criteria and what they wanted from Mythic, a 20 man fixed raid size was best. It gave Blizzard the fixed raid size they wanted and needed, it gave Mythic groups a certain degree of flexibility in raid composition.

But they've presented such answers before and this was never good enough. Still, maybe Blizzard will change the role for Mythic in Legion....but, if they do, won't that cost it it's prestige and desireability?

I've been running 10 man raids for years. We've never had a problem attaining full buffs. Having the option of +5 people is just icing on the cake. Plus we'll have one less stat for sure in Legion with the loss of Multistrike. I see no rigidity whatsoever.

Is it easier to juggle one apple or two? Of course it would be easier to balance all raid difficulties as Flex without the special snowflake that is current Mythic.

Large fixed group raiding is a thing of the past. The game is shrinking now and not growing. It's harder than ever to retain a raiding roster. And the last thing we need right now is an invisible wall preventing progression. The content itself should decide prestige, not strict roster requirements.

[KyrtF]

And would your ten man group also allow for each of the current classes to be represented? Does it allow enough flexibility to allow for multiple classes or different specs? Is it large enough to cover the raid groups for whom this difficulty was intended?

And no...looking back at the issues that affected 10s and 25s we can see why Blizzard wouldn't have wanted to balance 15 additional raid sizes instead of just one.

The roster boss was and is part of the challenge. It gives the hardcore for whom Mythic was intended exactly what they wanted. Anybody not up to the task of getting a raid organised has Heroic.

Now there's nothing wrong in asking for the target audience for Mythic to be expanded. But if Blizzard does allow Flex, it is simply inviting back all the problems and arguments that plagued the game in the past in order to appease players who are NOT the target audience for Mythic. They could reduce the required size, but that would mess up the existing guilds as well as reduce the flexibility those groups have in group composition, giving them the freedom to play a class or spec they want by ensuring there are enough slots to accodate such desires. Going to 15 also increases the likelihood some classes might be left out and so on.

Blizzard decided on one fixed size for a number of reasons. Similarly, they set that fixed size at 20 for a number of reasons. All of which they discussed.

None of those reasons appear to have changed. And if you are willing to accept the issues that arise from multiple size raids, others are not.

Mythic is prestigious because it is difficult. Making it easier won't help with that. Nor does a fixed raid size stop progression. It never jas in the past.

Mythic is intended to be a 'special snowflake'. Indeed, that is the reason it was created. If you can't handle the roster boss, you have a choice of Heroic or applying to a Mythic Guild who can. I'm usually against a special snowflake status, but in this case it's impossible to see how Blizzard can meet its current criteria and change Mythic. If it changes things to allow for Flex, then Mythic will lose prestige and become easier. Reducing the fixed size from 20 to 15 has pros and cons as well.

Overall....the argument that Mythic should be wrecked simply to let you and others into it isn't one that I think is likely to work

[Deleted]

5 million people have.

Quite funny since only +-150k players (per expansion) actually raided mythic/heroic.

So what about those 4,85 million others? They quit because for mythic raiding whilst not have done mythic raids? Right

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In the old days you'd have guilds on every raiding level. Players would move from lower tier guilds to higher tier guilds.

Now there's nothing, nothing, nothing -and then whammo! An absolute 20-man fixed barrier of entry.
There are no "feeder" guilds anymore. Everything below mythic is just one huge PUG-pool, there's really no need to guild up.

It's no wonder mythic guilds are struggling with recruitment - it's not for all, true. But there's really no way to test if it's for you.
You kinda have to know and be ready from the get-go. Not many can be bothered with that. The raiding scene is pretty much dead in the water at the moment.

My realm has 333 guilds raiding HFC :

133 Normal guilds 1->13/13 N
143 Heroic guilds 1-13/13H
55 Mythic guilds 1-13/13M

So you say there's no guilds on every level like in the past.

There's raids on 3 levels, that's more than the 2 levels in the past.

Also, mythic guilds and heroic guilds have always struggled with recruitment, especially if they are not doing well for the time spent in the instance weekly, that has always been a problem, and some guilds have always had issues with it. Improving attracts better players, and if you are too good for your guild, find a better guild and stop complaining and if you are a bad player then stop complaining and start improving.

A lot of guild issues are indirectly the side effect of how their raiders are. If you are a committed guild, with a committed roster, you will get committed trials. But if you have a few good players, and the rest baddies, you will the latter ones.

So pretty much, how you want your guild to be perceived and how you want it to function is up to you, but remember, positivity attracts positivity, it's always been like that with wow raiding.

There's plenty of guilds that are rather new, managed to assemble a good core over an expansion and then suddenly end up in the top 50. Because they wanted it, they didn't complain, they worked for it.

[Kallisto]

They can either fix that, or continue to let the game die.

There's no reason 10 man mythic can't be a thing, there's no reason flex mythic can't be a thing. It's a matter of them manning up and admitting their mistakes. 20 man mythic/same server only WOULD work if half the servers weren't dead/impossible to recruit on. Since that's the case, the ball is in blizzard's court to do something about it.

Problem is when mythic was announced servers were not half dead or difficult to recruit on. It was way back in 2013 a full 13 months before Highmaul was opened up. People had a lifetime to recruit but they just didn't. They derped around in their teams, saw an undertuned Mythic garrosh for the final month and then went into panic mode once they hit 100. Guilds should have started to recruit the day of WoD announcement and gone through the entire year finding their best, weeding out their worst if they were serious about it. Not wait until the final moments and then cry "We can't recruiiiiiiiiit." when it was far far too late.

And yes all bosses need to be balanced. All classes need to be balanced if possible. We must never find ourselves in a point in time in vanilla where you level to top and find no one wants you because you wasted weeks/months levelling a character that was 50% worse than the others.

[jeezusisacasual]

If blizzard would do proper server mergers this issue would not be so strong as it is now. I play on Zul'jin US to escape the backwater server issue ( Malfurion ) but why can we not have 15-20 mega servers per region to help promote more guild activity? Also myself and a friend have used the last 2 months gearing up with pug HFC normal and heroic so again tell me why is a guild even needed? because if they keep the shoddy looking tier sets going forward mythic does not wet my tongue enough to deal with a guild that has some people i will most likely hate.

With how much easier it is now to get geared , 6 weeks to get all slots but neck to heroic from welfare epics i might use this method going forward with killing normal / heroic get geared decently then unsub until content patches pay alittle gold raid for 6-8 weeks and then stop again all the while not being in a guild building those kind of lasting friendships that would make it harder to stop playing since i am lucky to play with 4 RL friends who happen to not be complete shit. This is why wow has no community or will have one because of the ease of access but at the same time games are now more so then ever about jumping in when you want to and get things done when you want to get them done and not about having a few nerd nights a week.

[Deleted]

Overall....the argument that Mythic should be wrecked simply to let you and others into it isn't one that I think is likely to work

Blizzard changed raiding in the past, for example to add 10-man raiding as an option for players who didn't want to recruit all day. There's no reason to think that they won't change their idea of raiding again.

Right now the problem is that flex mode creates way too many guilds who all try to go 20-man when they've completed HC, but there aren't enough players to support them. So the guilds either stop raiding or they split up, breaking apart friendships.

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Problem is when mythic was announced servers were not half dead or difficult to recruit on. It was way back in 2013 a full 13 months before Highmaul was opened up. People had a lifetime to recruit but they just didn't. They derped around in their teams, saw an undertuned Mythic garrosh for the final month and then went into panic mode once they hit 100. Guilds should have started to recruit the day of WoD announcement and gone through the entire year finding their best, weeding out their worst if they were serious about it. Not wait until the final moments and then cry "We can't recruiiiiiiiiit." when it was far far too late.

And yes all bosses need to be balanced. All classes need to be balanced if possible. We must never find ourselves in a point in time in vanilla where you level to top and find no one wants you because you wasted weeks/months levelling a character that was 50% worse than the others.

This is incorrect. Guilds did recruit - Our guild went 25 man like most other serious 10 man guilds - but WoD was unfortunately not a very good expansion so 5 million players left the game soon after the launch.