Will Mythic 20man stand the test of time?

[kamuimac]

Being honest this is going to end in the absolute death of the recruiting pool because all the mid-tier guilds high end guilds are pulling from will eventually collapse entirely.

well duh but people were warning about it since mop when the pool of recruits was shringking more and more - it was extremly wisible at some point when there was bunch of guilds stuck on hc siegecrafter and then long long nothign- now even those guilds vanished - there is a limit to which peopel could cannibalize lower progressed guilds and they reached it now in wod - there are few guilds left and then nothing behind them. its so easy to jump straight to 9-10 mythic atm if you only have the right class cause they are so desperate to take anyone who will show them decent logs - the "Sociapath" appraoch is extremly easy and effective atm on big servers. all you need is decent logs and world is your oyster.

[Ebalina]

It really saddens me that the game has become what it is today.

I'm an officer of a guild for 7years now.
Never in my life have i experienced such dry patch without applications.
Even the split during cataclysm i still had choices on a backwater realm to pick and chose players and classes.
We've had moderate success during MoP floating around top 400.
Ever since the release of WoD i've been replacing people like dirty napkins and i have no idea why.
Started WoD with 32 people roster when we killed Ko'ragh on mythic we were barely making raids with 20ppl......


Now i'm on one of the most high populated realms on eu we finished last tier 16/17mythic couldn't kill blackhand for many reasons but one of them been people dropping like fly's left and right, guild hopping stopping all together and what not.
Can you imagine my guild had 2 rogues from the start of WoD they both lasted almost till the end of BRF.
I managed to recruit a boomer the 1st of its kind in this guild since WoD in a very very long time half way trough brf mythic progression.
Had to get a guild mate to reroll from scratch to play another boomer as well, and he quit 2weeks in to hfc.

The current state of raiding is ridicules.
Last reset my guild had 21ppl online for farm and 20ppl for progress on gorefiend and this is like our 3rd night on gorefiend we wiped several on very low % of the boss, and we lost 1h of raid time due to unfortunate internet problems by one of our raiders which left us with sour taste in our mouths.
I had no one to replace him and not to mention hes on duty of freeing people.

I feel that if we don't manage to kill Gorefiend this reset because of afk's/dc's and what not we wont be able to sustain our self and guild will crumble because there is just not enough people.

Pulling desperate moves to recruit people with low warcraftlog percentiles and 13/13hc people with like 712ilvl might pay of but even those people are no where to be found.

I am all for 20man mythic i really am.
It feels fluid it feels as decent as 25man to me(i raided 10man only during Dragonsoul cause lets face it instance was crap and ppl got time off to rewind till mop) i've always played in big raid sizes since day one of my introduction to the game ran 25man heroic guild and still running 20man mythic one for like 7years now.
But i have to say the way players are leaving the game very soon there will be like the top500 that will be doing mythic and the rest will be left out for nothing.
My guild has cleared multiple tiers on the hardest difficulty and now we can't get past the recruitment boss because loyalty in a game mean nothing and people leave like fly's to better progressed guilds just because they can.

What Deja Thoris linked above is the state of recruitment at the moment.
And while i keep fighting for my guild to survive i keep wondering is it worth it to put all this work outside raids and get told most of the times from potential recruits "i'm sorry mate i'm looking for something with 9+mythic" while these people sit at 1-3-5mythic kills their logs on average are subpar and yet they know some one will pick them up out of desperation.

The amount of decent guilds that has disbanded this expansion is ridicules and while i know every expansion guilds die its the 1st time i see so many of the top100 guilds collapse because of recruitment issues and the game just been plain horrible and not to mention SUMMER release of a new content must be the most stupid thing ever............it doesn't help any one.

Sorry about all the rant and whine but it is just frustrating.

TLDR i do hope 20man stay's as a current format but population needs addressing class balance needs addressing and last but not least raids are becoming overly complicated.
You should be able to beat the last boss on hc without a problem and without split clears to funnel 4sets and trinkets to core raiders if you managed to clear 5 or more previous mythic bosses from previous tier. I am not saying it should be easy but it should be doable even for an average guild and the truth is that is not the case. Took my 7 weeks to get 4set running both normal and hc ......... 7 weeks........ thats abysmal time i'm sorry because my guild cannot afford to run split clears this madness with the split clears and putting items in such high value needs to stop because a single item changes the dynamics of a class the troughput they do same goes for 2 and 4 set.

[Csnyder]

i have no idea, no one can predict the future, it is a waste of time to even try to predict the future

[Marrilaife]

And while i keep fighting for my guild to survive i keep wondering is it worth it to put all this work outside raids and get told most of the times from potential recruits "i'm sorry mate i'm looking for something with 9+mythic" while these people sit at 1-3-5mythic kills their logs on average are subpar and yet they know some one will pick them up out of desperation.

I so wish that was true, atm I've joined a guild that was 5 mythic when I joined and is 9 mythic now but I've gone through (and my friends too) the humiliating process of trying to get into mid-mythic guilds just to hear from them one after another "your logs are good, but we're looking only for EXCEPTIONAL players", half of those guilds now try to pug 1 dps or healer for their gorefiend / socrethar / kormrok / iron reaver mythic progress from trade chat. How the heck are you all so picky if your bench is basically empty, one player dcs and you're forced to pug / cancel / beg friends to log / practice wipes with 19.

Oh, and even more funny is nearly every day I see new guilds sprouting out "led my mythic experienced leader", must be some people who got carried to few mythic kills but not good enough to stay, now they think they can do everything better than everyone else. I'm just wondering how they are gonna fill their guilds and with whom.

[Ebalina]

I so wish that was true, atm I've joined a guild that was 5 mythic when I joined and is 9 mythic now but I've gone through (and my friends too) the humiliating process of trying to get into mid-mythic guilds just to hear from them one after another "your logs are good, but we're looking only for EXCEPTIONAL players", half of those guilds now try to pug 1 dps or healer for their gorefiend / socrethar / kormrok / iron reaver mythic progress from trade chat. How the heck are you all so picky if your bench is basically empty, one player dcs and you're forced to pug / cancel / beg friends to log / practice wipes with 19.

Oh, and even more funny is nearly every day I see new guilds sprouting out "led my mythic experienced leader", must be some people who got carried to few mythic kills but not good enough to stay, now they think they can do everything better than everyone else. I'm just wondering how they are gonna fill their guilds and with whom.

Sadly that is the reality for me.
I'm progressing Gorefiend atm we wiped last night several times under 10% and one very weird 1% wipe because me and my co tank let 3 souls hit the boss just out of sheer panic.

I am progressing this boss with a newly recruited mage that i got fresh 13/13 hc no mythic kills till last night what so ever not even on previous tiers.
We are going to kill it this sunday but my point is i had to recruit a guy who has no experience what so ever and teach him stuff on the fly i'm happy he at least turned out to be decent and following instructions and not dying left right and center.

Anyway for my guild to survive i just recruited 2 more players with 700ilvl and boosted them with around 10ilvls last night from just sheer gear to be able to use them for the upcoming resets.
And why i write this? Well because few guilds disbanded last week on my real all from 2 to 5 mythic and every person i talked to gave me the exact same answer "i'm looking for a guild that has already killed gorefiend and is in the upper part of HFC" and while that is their right i feel that is just not right.

And the guilds that turned now a person with 5mythics just because they are looking for more experienced players are just crazy stupid i feel for you..

I guess my point is impatient people and just flat out dumb people in the mid bracket and the fact that there just isn't enough people to go around make everything so much harder ..

[Skittles83]

I guess my point is impatient people and just flat out dumb people in the mid bracket and the fact that there just isn't enough people to go around make everything so much harder ..

This has always been the case! no matter of difficulty! I personally am a raider who needs to see a boss fight a few times... lets say 3/4 tries and I got it..
and due to my heroic logs I get a lot of complaints.. now when people look at my mythic logs they are impressed..
Honestly I do more DPS in Mythic than heroic..
Our guild really wants to progress into Mythic and I am helping where I can.. but due to lack of people we take scrubs!
On anything a ranged should be top dps we have 1 hunter and then me as a paladin.. we have countless of wipes on Iron Reaver due to people not being able to move away from barrage..
But yet we take anyone that has a certain ilvl and fills up the ranks..

I rather have we take some crappy geared people, dedicate a normal and hc raid for them and done.

[Marrilaife]

And the guilds that turned now a person with 5mythics just because they are looking for more experienced players are just crazy stupid i feel for you..

People don't seem to plan for the situation that people will quit. Not maybe, for sure someone will. Few weeks ago I tried to join a guild where I have a friend in, and the gm told me they're full. He didn't realize one guy will transfer away because of some drama / argument, another guy will stop playing because he's having a child born and a handful of other people will simply have wobbly attendance, because so. I know from this friend of mine they often stood with 19 people in front of gorefiend poking friends and socials to fill the spot, even completely undergeared people who do 50% less dps than their main raiders. They did finally kill the boss when all stars aligned and all wobbly people showed up, but it baffles me how a gm can not plan for having any backups.

I've read a similar story here on MMO-champ, a gm of some guild said their rival guild disbanded and he turned down people from there "because we're full", just to see them transfer from the server and few weeks later when he struggled with attendance there was no more recruits to take in. Back in the days of 25 man raiding often 25 man guilds had a roster up to 32, 10 man heroic guilds often had 15 people. People were benched and rotated per boss basis, there was drama, but you had to do it, just in case someone doesn't show up. What happened with this philosophy now? Why 20 man teams often feel 21-22 people is more than enough? I don't mind a situation of never being benched and whole raid team relying on me and everyone else, but that is not realistic thinking, I used to be that person when I was the tank but still one day I had ISP problems and someone should be able to replace me. And generally you'd always have a few people who have really good attendance close to 100% but it will never be everyone there's always be a handful of people you don't want to kick because they're skilled or friends etc. but they tend to be an on-off type of player.

P.S.

This has always been the case! no matter of difficulty! I personally am a raider who needs to see a boss fight a few times... lets say 3/4 tries and I got it..
and due to my heroic logs I get a lot of complaints.. now when people look at my mythic logs they are impressed..

Yes, I was being turned down too because "your logs are not impressive" and yet when I finally found a mythic guild it seems when it comes to prio targets (iskar adds, socrethar adds, killlrogg adds) I'm usually within top 3, top 5 maybe dps on those adds while being slightly behind in gear in comparison to the rest of the team. So generally guilds are looking for pro padders / tunnel visioners who can produce purple / orange bracket logs but when they find them and take them they see those people ignore all tactics to plainly wh*re on the meter. Sadly that doesn't get you progress kills. Any boss from killrogg on I saw had wipes from people not switching to adds or standing in crap because they're used to farm content and pumping dps. And yes, a lot of mythic guilds only care to ask you "what's your ilvl? how's your legendary ring? how much xp you have? how are your logs?" and don't really care if the person can follow raid leader's instructions and learn tactics. People wipe on hellfire assault simply because they get cocky and treat it as a "farm content" and aoe everything instead of prioritizing specific adds. Even though this boss is easy in comparison to the rest no matter which difficulty you consider, normal, hc or mythic.

[Tenjen]

think they should stick to their guns of 20 man. its "potentially" inclusive of most classes and variants or at least all viable combinations. A fixed and proper number to fine tune content with

[Vestig3]

You can turn right you can turn left but blizzard is certainly gonna keep mythic the way it is no matter how many people dislike the fact you need 20 people for it.

[Deleted]

It's better than 25. 10 was too small. It might be slightly bigger than needed but people are OCD and wouldn't like 18 or 17.

[Deleted]

If you're not top 5 server you're getting fuck all in terms of recruiting.

And honestly, why would you? You can jump from 3 kills to 10 right now. The recruiting pool has dried up that much, and it's honestly making the raid game very unhealthy. The best way for personal progression is being a sociopath, since guilds are desperate for warm bodies right now there are nearly no reprecussions for playing social climber.

Being honest this is going to end in the absolute death of the recruiting pool because all the mid-tier guilds high end guilds are pulling from will eventually collapse entirely.

Well, score one for social mobility at least. Though these sort of players have existed throughout eternity. We spoke to a healer last week whom was not interested because he is after a guild more progressed. We're 12/13M, he was 9/13M. Often these sort of players get found out pretty quickly - but alas, ring upgrades and a dwindling pool mean they are needed. Had a balance druid in 8 guilds this xpac so far come by with us, we decided to take a shot. Took one item then gquit. Same with a dk, 7 guilds this xpac. But DK FOTM and had no other one geared. He lasted two weeks, then ninja gquit. It's part of the territory though - ultimately you find the good and the bad apples. Often there's been that heavy pool to pick from you laugh it off.

Cross realm would probably help.

[Kyanion]

You can turn right you can turn left but blizzard is certainly gonna keep mythic the way it is no matter how many people dislike the fact you need 20 people for it.

You do not speak for Blizz. We'll see what is said at Blizzcon. Until then I don't "certainly" see them committing one way or another yet.

[Cwimge]

It won't. The only people happy with a hard 20 are the ones already there. I've said it before and I say it again- the bosses themselves should be the challenge in mythic. Not the logistics of getting an awkward number of people.

Now, does this mean I'm against locked size raids? kind of, yeah. However if we're playing the raid tuning card then I would honestly rather see 10 or 15 man groups then watch guilds crumble while I laugh all the way through my heroic flex

[Deleted]

20 is not awkward though. 10 was bad, it was very short, especially when the encounter had 2 healers (most of the time) it was very unstable. 25 was also bad since you always had that mysterious feeling that 5 of them are unknown entities.

The ideal would be something inbetween. Well, you can't have 17 or 18 since people go OCD about round numbers, so 20.


Reminder that when I suggested the flex system back in this forum it was proclaimed idiotic. Now I see praise. Look at that.

[Deja Thoris]

20 is not awkward though. 10 was bad, it was very short, especially when the encounter had 2 healers (most of the time) it was very unstable. 25 was also bad since you always had that mysterious feeling that 5 of them are unknown entities.

The ideal would be something inbetween. Well, you can't have 17 or 18 since people go OCD about round numbers, so 20.


Reminder that when I suggested the flex system back in this forum it was proclaimed idiotic. Now I see praise. Look at that.

It's still not a good solution. The reasons why its not have been stated a lot and are solid.

[Deleted]

It's still not a good solution. The reasons why its not have been stated a lot and are solid.

Is that about flex? Because I don't want it in mythic. It's still a good idea for faceroll difficulties.

[kamuimac]

Is that about flex? Because I don't want it in mythic. It's still a good idea for faceroll difficulties.

would you rather have mythic completly removed from game? cause this is the direction that mythic is straight heading all of this expansion.

[Deleted]

would you rather have mythic completly removed from game? cause this is the direction that mythic is straight heading all of this expansion.

No. And why do you say that? It's still pretty hard unless the guild is hard core.

[Nightstalker]

Will Preach's constant prediction of 15man stand the test of time?

[Deleted]

Dunno if 15man is enough. It sounds slightly smaller than needed. 20man is probably better.