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  1. #1

    Rogue PvE Combat Guide for 6.2

    Link to Sub Guide: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Guide-for-6-2
    Link to Assa Guide: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Guide-for-6-2


    It's time! The combat guide is finally done, it went a little smoother but it was still a lot of work and lots of new problems wanted to be solved. Without much ado here it is:






    And here is also the written version:


    Hello everybody and welcome to my Rogue Combat Guide for patch 6.2
    This guide is intended to teach you the basics and advanced strategies about the spec.

    Let’s start by taking a look at all our dps related skills and mechanics:

    Builders

    Ambush
    15 Energy + 2CP - Ambush is our default Builder from Stealth, it generates 2 Combo Points for 15 Energy when the Shadow Focus Talent is chosen, it costs 60 Energy otherwise. It deals moderate physical damage. (Read only: It is optimal to use it at 3 CP to circumvent spill from Sinister Strike)
    Garrote
    45 Energy + 1CP – Deals low bleed damage and applies a 3 second Silence, only ever used for the Silence as combat, no real PvE application in Warlords.
    Revealing Strike
    40 Energy + 1 CP – Revealing Strike deals moderate physical damage and applies a debuff of the same name for 24s, that increases the effectiveness of Eviscerate and Kidney Shot by 35%, also it grants Sinister Strike a 25% chance to gain an extra Combo Point.
    Sinister Strike
    50 Energy + 1-2 CP – Sinister Strike is our main filler spell, as it does more damage per energy than Revealing Strike and on top generates 1.25 Combo Points on average per cast. Sinister Strike moves the Bandit’s Guile cycle forward. In general avoid using without having applied Revealing Strike first.
    Marked for Death
    free + 5 CP – Base Cooldown is 60s, however, when its target dies the Cooldown resets, therefore it can be used more often than once per minute. Regardless of this mechanic it is stronger than Anticipation. Should be saved for quickly dying adds. Actual gain varies. (Only read: The realistic maximum gain per cast as combat is 4 CP due to Ruthlessness, but it is better to use it for 1 free CP than not using it at all if adds die very quickly.)

    Finishers

    Eviscerate
    35 Energy (10 after Relentless strikes) – Eviscerate is a physical damage finisher that is used when Slice and Dice does not need refreshing. Avoid using without the Revealing Strike debuff.
    Slice and Dice
    25 Energy (free after Relentless strikes) – Slice and Dice is a simple maintenance buff that increases our attack speed by 40%. It lasts 36s and may be refreshed at 10.8s or less. When Slice and Dice remains longer than Deep Insight you should refresh if during no Insight.
    Crimson Tempest
    35 Energy (10 after Relentless strikes) – Crimson Tempest bites the dust compared to Blade Flurry + Eviscerate. Dead Skill. ۩

    Cooldowns

    Killing Spree
    2m CD. Effective CD ~53s. For 3s you teleport every 0.5s to an enemy you had in a 10y range while pressing the button and deal physical damage to them. Should be used before Adrenaline Rush, and with low energy. Should be used on Cooldown. Avoid using it during Adrenaline Rush. Consider using Cloak of Shadows to not die. Benefits from Restless Blades.
    Adrenaline Rush
    3m CD. Effective CD ~73s. Greatly increases energy regeneration and increases auto attack speed by 20% and lowers Global Cooldown to 0.8s. Should be used on Cooldown. Benefits from Restless Blades.
    Blade Flurry
    10s CD. When active you hit enemies around you for 35% of normal damage, but your energy regeneration is reduced by 20%. Turn on for AoE at 2 targets or more, turn off for Single Target.
    Vanish
    1m CD when glyphed, 2min base CD. Often used on Cooldown for 1 cheap Ambush cast.
    Preparation
    5m CD. Instantly resets Vanish CD. Should be used early so you can get a 2nd usage on some fights unless you need the reset for your defensive spells.

    Buffs/Debuffs/Mechanics

    Bandit’s Guile
    This is a cycling buff with 4 stages, 0% 10% 20% and 50% damage increase. Every stage lasts 15s and may be refreshed by Sinister Strike with the exception of the 50% stage, the last stage lasts 15s regardless. To enter the next stage you have to cast Sinister Strike 4 times. Sometimes it can be worth it to control this buff by delaying the final stage for heavy AoE phases.
    Ruthlessness
    For every Combo Point spent on an offensive Finisher you reduce the Cooldown on Killing Spree and Adrenaline Rush by 2s, up to 10s in total for a 5 Combo Point Finisher. Additionally for each Combo Point used on a Finisher you have a 20% chance to instantly gain a Combo Point. Since you are supposed to use Finishers at 5 Combo Points you always profit from this.
    Restless Blades
    (Only read: I will refer to the Cooldown reduction of Ruthlessness as ‘Restless Blades’ since that is the original name of that mechanic in order to not confuse it with the Combo Point refund portion of the skill.)
    Mastery: Main Gauche
    Your main-hand attacks have a chance to trigger an attack for 140% off-hand damage. This effect makes you wear slow weapons in your offhand.


    Random Fight sequence and comments on that

    The fight showcase will have 2 parts: One short fight on the dummy and a heroic Xhul’horac kill in order to highlight Marked for Death usage.
    I will start off with the static dummy fight. On top of the pull timer I added 2 add wave timers, which you oftentimes have on add encounters. We try to line up our Cooldowns and Deep Insight with these.
    I used the legendary on pull as most people will probably do that and it will somewhat line up with the 2nd imaginary add wave. I also used Killing Spree as it should be ready for the first add wave again, but I don’t use Adrenaline Rush as the effective Cooldown is 73s and therefore won’t be ready for the 1st add wave. It won’t be ready for the 2nd add wave though, but I just assume here that the 1st wave is more important.
    Note the Ambush at exactly 3 Combo Points.
    In order to not enter Deep Insight prematurely I start substituting Sinister Strike with Revealing Strike. I cast one Sinister Strike in order to refresh the duration to not let it drop.
    Once the imaginary adds reach the imaginary Tank I toggle on Blade Flurry.
    I use Killing Spree here during Adrenaline Rush because the duration is still long, my energy is almost empty and Blade Flurry’s energy penalty won’t let me cap too hard if at all.
    During a Soul Capacitor proc Bandit’s Guile Helper stops counting, so I have to do that myself >.>
    Note how I hold my 5 Combo Points and wait for Killing Spree in order to not let the 10s Cooldown reduction of Restless Blades go to waste. Only do this without capping energy though.
    Next up is the Xhul’horac video. First off: Combat on that fight can be extremely hectic, you are not required to play perfect, you are required to play as good as you can to optimize Marked for Death.
    I use all my Cooldowns on pull as you are not required to finish the Imps within a fixed amount of time. On mythic you might have more or less time depending on the amount of control your composition has.
    Before using Marked for Death I try to be at a low amount of Combo Points and I wait a bit until I can estimate which of the Imps will die first. Random Touch of Death usage from fellow Monks can throw a spanner in our works.
    Let’s talk about our Marked for Death usage expectations: Each wave of Imps consists of 3 Imps, getting 1 Marked for Death cast off on them is okay, 2 is good and 3 is lucky most of the time.
    Don’t mind the fire stacks, I didn’t either. In all seriousness though, there should not be fire, but I could have avoided a couple stacks.
    Here I waited a bit for the mass grip which didn’t come. In that situation the Imp right under the boss is usually the first to die, so I went for that one.
    What happens next is a failed Killing Spree: The boss was apparently in my 10y range when I pressed the button and I teleport back and forth until I outrange a target and then I miss out on Killing Spree hits.
    Again no Grip, therefore I mark the Imp underneath the boss. Additionally the ranged adds started spawning, they can also be Marked for Death, however they tend to die more slowly and are sometimes out of range. They can be a bonus as long as they don’t mess up your Marked for Death usage on Imps by not dying in time.
    That gorgeous Marked for Death usage, so beautiful. Ok I shut up.
    There is no further commentating on this boss, feel free to watch until the end or skip to the tips & tricks section.

    This concludes the show fight against the target dummy, next up are Tips & Tricks, Common mistakes and Gearing.

    Tips & Tricks

    Since we are playing without Anticipation our Combo Point cap is at 5. If you use Sinister Strike at 4 you waste on average 0.25 Combo Points in that situation - first off: It is not that big of a deal. Secondly we can sometimes play around this by trying to only refresh Revealing Strike at 4 Combo Points or use Ambush at 3 to circumvent Overflow. There is an 81.25% chance to land on 3 CP assuming 1 CP as start.

    Even combat rogue can play with energy pooling. You can pool energy at the end of Deep Insight so that you move two Sinister Strikes into no Insight to reduce the time spent in no Insight. But don’t cap on energy and don’t move an Eviscerate into no Insight. You can also pool before using Revealing Strike to reduce the overall amount you cast the spell and therefore move energy spent into the more efficient Sinister Strike.

    If you want to use Killing Spree on one target only, but still cleave on other adds you can outrange the other adds, that way Killing Spree will only hit your main target. Also Killing Spree can be canceled though ‘/cancelaura Killing Spree’.

    Combat is a lot about Cooldown Management. You have to evaluate when it is best to use them and when to hold. Try to figure this out after a couple of attempts. What works one week might no longer the next due to more raid DPSs and the dynamic nature of our Cooldowns. On Iskar and mythic Mannoroth it is worth it to hold for AoE. That does not mean don’t use Cooldowns at all, it means have them ready for specific events as well as Deep Insight.

    Get an addon for Insight management. I recommend Bandit’s Guile helper for that, but other solutions also exist. When you don’t want to push into red you can start using Revealing Strike instead of Sinister Strike at ‘yellow 2’, which is 2 Sinister Strikes into Moderate Insight.

    Having several Marked for Death keybinds makes it easier to use. I have one for the current target, one for mouseover and one for quickly dying adds.

    Your frequently used keybinds should be easy to press. This might seem obvious, but people often add newly learned spells wherever they have space left on their action bars. Use a spreadsheet to reorganize your keybinds.

    My Opinion on Combat: Combat is a fight in itself about when to use Cooldowns and when to not use them as several mechanics struggle to fight against each other: Bandit’s Guile vs Restless Blades vs Add Waves. Cooldown mismanagement can ripple through the encounter and lower dps significantly.


    Common Mistakes

    Not having Cooldowns up for when you need them.

    Low Uptime on Slice and Dice. Slice and Dice is your most important Finisher. You can refresh at <10.8. Make sure to never let it drop.

    Using Finishers with less than 5 Combo Points. For each combo point spent on a Finisher, you have a 20% chance to get 25 Energy and 1 Combo Point refunded, both on a different roll, adding to 100% for both rolls at 5 combo points. A Finisher at 4 Combo Points only has a chance of 64% to grant you 25 Energy and 1 Combo Point.

    Waiting for Deep Insight to use Cooldowns. While +50% seems juicy, Restless Blades as a mechanic is just stronger. So unless you know you won’t miss a Cooldown usage don’t do it. Waiting for add phases to line everything up is fine though.

    Not having Cooldowns up for when you need them. Yes it’s that important.

    Gearing

    There are Best in Slot lists and they are useful to a certain extent, but you shouldn’t pass up upgrades along the way to Best in Slot. A warforged item might be better than a regular BiS item. How do you find out? For a highly accurate result you can check out shadowcraft and use it for comparison, or for quick and pretty accurate estimates you can use the ingame addon pawn with customized stat values.

    My Pawn values can also be found in the google docs linked in the description.

    In order to import them, copy them first, then open pawn ingame, go to scale, and then use import.

    For single target haste is the best stat, however, the more targets enter the fight the better multistrike becomes. This favors going for multistrike as it is the best stat for combat AoE and Subtlety single target.

    A question I get often is: ‘Do you use a dagger for cleaving?’ The answer is: Depends. You only want to use a dagger for prolonged cleaving as you lose weapon enchant uptime and some weapon swings for each time you switch. Hellfire Assault yes, Iskar Adds yes, Xhul’horac yes, Mannoroth no.

    Another question is: ‘How many weapons do I need?’ I recommend 3 – 2x slow and 1 fast. Enchant 1 slow with Warsong (Haste) and 1 slow + 1 fast with Frostwolf (Multistrike). Optional 3rd slow weapon with Warsong for a total of 4.

    For Trinket Comparison there is a simcraft results thread on mmo-champion which I will also link in the description. Soul Capacitor is more flexible, Mirror of the Blademaster is more reliable, go with whatever you feel is more suited for you.

    Glyphs and Talents

    Glyph of Energy – this glyph is a dps increase.
    Glyph of Disappearance - this glyph is a dps increase when used with Shadow Focus.

    Glyph of Deadly Momentum – Can be a dps increase if you happen to do the killing blow on an add.
    Glyph of Evasion – Increases Evasion duration by 5s. Useful on Kilrogg Visions.


    T15 – Shadow Focus
    T90 – Marked for Death -> Anticipation
    T100 – Venom Rush -> Death from Above -> Shadow Reflection



    This concludes my 6.2 combat PvE guide, leave comments and suggestions below, and if you found this guide helpful leave a thumbs up. You can also visit me on my twitch channel and ask me questions or just hang out. It’s twitch.com/rylix_TV
    Thank you for watching.


    Links
    Bandit’s Guile Helper: http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/bandits-guile-helper
    Join my stream on twitch, on the channel page you can find lots of useful rogue information, addon links and my PoV on different encounters. I will be answering your questions on chat or in general talk to you guys and gals ! http://www.twitch.tv/rylix_tv
    Macros, Weak Aura Strings and stat values can be found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...oPItF7thIuNbb0
    Rogue gearing spreadsheet tool: http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com/
    Rogue Simcraft thread with BiS lists and custom profiles: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...esults-for-WoD

    Namaste by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution licence (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/)
    Artist: http://audionautix.com/
    CGI Snake by Chris Zabriskie is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution licence (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/)
    Source: http://chriszabriskie.com/divider/
    Artist: http://chriszabriskie.com/
    Mario Bava Sleeps In a Little Later Than He Expected To by Chris Zabriskie is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution licence (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/)
    Source: http://chriszabriskie.com/vendaface/
    Artist: http://chriszabriskie.com/
    Last edited by RylixTV; 2015-11-14 at 05:22 AM.
    Watch me play Rogue in Nihilum on Twitch. Armory link I answer all Rogue and other questions from stream-chat.
    Formerly known as nihna on MMO-C

  2. #2
    Warchief Ferg's Avatar
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    nice, planning one for assassination too?
    ill probably be infracted for this post

  3. #3
    planning yes, but I will need to see if I have the time. Semester starting soon and I need to prepare for that, also less time during semester.

    I am planning on doing an Assa guide, a couple of short guides for each boss from Rogue PoV, and a general how to use Simcraft and maybe Shadowcraft guide. (yes you can mess up there too)
    Watch me play Rogue in Nihilum on Twitch. Armory link I answer all Rogue and other questions from stream-chat.
    Formerly known as nihna on MMO-C

  4. #4
    Thanks for the guide, learned a couple of things that I never really thought about before, looking forward to more useful guides like these

  5. #5
    Great guide Rylix, even though I'm pretty experienced as Combat, I believe that you can never know everything there is to know and I there were some things from your tips & tricks section that I hadn't thought of before.

    Quote Originally Posted by RylixTV View Post
    That gorgeous Marked for Death usage, so beautiful. Ok I shut up.
    No, do not shut up, you tell those infidels about MfD!

  6. #6
    Another great guide. Sticky please so it does not get drowned in other posts!

  7. #7
    Damn, very useful! Thanks to your Sublety guide I pulled up 20k more, and now with this MfD usage I'm fucking going to rekt everybody on AoE fights.

  8. #8
    Mouseover and customized MfD macros was something I never thought about. Definitely gonna take some time getting used to, but thank you so much for these, Rylix!
    So used to playing with anticipation that unlearning the 10cp mentality is gonna take some time though

  9. #9
    By the way can someone explain a little bit the dagger-cleaving thing? I don't really get it, I don't know which weapon should be a dagger and which not.

  10. #10
    Thanks Rylix for the informative guide, I got a question though.
    For the MfD evis on the adds in the Xhul'haroc fight, are you using the follow macro?
    "#showtooltip Marked for Death
    /use [@mouseover,exists,harm]Marked for Death"
    If so would it be possible to incorporate evis into the macro for faster execution of MfD > evis on adds?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by VeriDF View Post
    By the way can someone explain a little bit the dagger-cleaving thing? I don't really get it, I don't know which weapon should be a dagger and which not.
    For continuous cleaving a dagger in the main hand will provide more dps than 2x slow. Off hand always slow.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by sk8jack View Post
    Thanks Rylix for the informative guide, I got a question though.
    For the MfD evis on the adds in the Xhul'haroc fight, are you using the follow macro?
    "#showtooltip Marked for Death
    /use [@mouseover,exists,harm]Marked for Death"
    If so would it be possible to incorporate evis into the macro for faster execution of MfD > evis on adds?
    Never macro mfd and Eviscerate or risk 1 CP finishers due to ruthlessness and mfd being on CD. I use all my mfd macros on that fight. They are also linked.
    Watch me play Rogue in Nihilum on Twitch. Armory link I answer all Rogue and other questions from stream-chat.
    Formerly known as nihna on MMO-C

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by RylixTV View Post
    Never macro mfd and Eviscerate or risk 1 CP finishers due to ruthlessness and mfd being on CD.
    I use this one
    #showtooltip Marked for Death
    /cast [target=mouseover,harm] Marked for Death; Marked for Death
    /cast Eviscerate
    and I am perfectly fine with it, I also have a WA playing a sound when MfD is ready again and I generally don't have issues with it, the only real problem comes when I use it on something that happens to be >30y away and then I evi with 1CP. Apart from that in my opinion it's neither more convenient nor safer to use MfD without evi in a macro.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulsseeker View Post
    I use this one

    and I am perfectly fine with it, I also have a WA playing a sound when MfD is ready again and I generally don't have issues with it, the only real problem comes when I use it on something that happens to be >30y away and then I evi with 1CP. Apart from that in my opinion it's neither more convenient nor safer to use MfD without evi in a macro.
    Not really sure how to answer here. So I say don't do it or you risk 1 CP finishers and then you say that you are fine with doing it but still sometimes do a 1 CP finisher because of it?

    In any case I stay by my suggestion to not macro them.
    Watch me play Rogue in Nihilum on Twitch. Armory link I answer all Rogue and other questions from stream-chat.
    Formerly known as nihna on MMO-C

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by RylixTV View Post
    For continuous cleaving a dagger in the main hand will provide more dps than 2x slow. Off hand always slow.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Never macro mfd and Eviscerate or risk 1 CP finishers due to ruthlessness and mfd being on CD. I use all my mfd macros on that fight. They are also linked.
    Looking at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?pli=1#gid=0
    in which situation would you use the mouse over MfD "#showtooltip Marked for Death
    /use [@mouseover,exists,harm]Marked for Death" and/or the other MfD macro "#showtooltip Marked for Death
    /tar Fel Imp
    /tar Wild Pyromaniac
    /use Marked for Death
    /targetlasttarget" ?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by RylixTV View Post
    Not really sure how to answer here. So I say don't do it or you risk 1 CP finishers and then you say that you are fine with doing it but still sometimes do a 1 CP finisher because of it?

    In any case I stay by my suggestion to not macro them.
    What I mean is that if I do a 1CP evi, it's because of my misjudgement and nothing else. If I use Evi separately I need to press two buttons instead of one with every MfD cast and I need to have a glance at my CPs to make sure I have 5 which I find as unnecessary waste of time and focus. I prefer to risk eviscerating at 1CP and know that I screwed up, than to waste time pressing MfD and Evi separately and potentially miss another possible reset or cleave damage. It's a personal preference, nothing more.
    Last edited by Recuiem; 2015-09-23 at 06:30 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by sk8jack View Post
    Looking at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?pli=1#gid=0
    in which situation would you use the mouse over MfD "#showtooltip Marked for Death
    /use [@mouseover,exists,harm]Marked for Death" and/or the other MfD macro "#showtooltip Marked for Death
    /tar Fel Imp
    /tar Wild Pyromaniac
    /use Marked for Death
    /targetlasttarget" ?
    On Xhul horac I use mouseover on the first Imp, sometimes on the second if the health difference between them warrants it, otherwise the random imp macro. It can also target dead imps so you need to spam it.

    On Mannoroth random for all imps.
    Watch me play Rogue in Nihilum on Twitch. Armory link I answer all Rogue and other questions from stream-chat.
    Formerly known as nihna on MMO-C

  17. #17
    Warchief Ferg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulsseeker View Post
    It's a personal preference, nothing more.
    rylix is simply stating that he doesn't understand why you would prefer to play suboptimally
    ill probably be infracted for this post

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferg View Post
    rylix is simply stating that he doesn't understand why you would prefer to play suboptimally
    Are you his secretary? And my choice of play is not suboptimal. My choice of play is actually more optimal if you eliminate the human error element or at least lower it to a minimum. When your MfD is on cd, simply don't press the macro, that's it, that's as optimal as it gets. If I'm confident enough of my abilities, reaction time and peripheral vision, why shouldn't I have Evi macro'ed with MfD?

    Whereas as I already said, if you have to click them separately, by the time it takes you to click MfD, glance at your CPs, click Evi and move your eyes to the action again, even if that takes a third of a second, another add may die which you could've used the next MfD on if you had used the two abilities together without moving your eyes. Or an add might've moved out of blade flurry range which you could've cleaved otherwise.

    Do not get the wrong impression, I am not here to argue or to hold a grudge, I am here to try and always improve, just like anybody else. I would love to hear why using MfD and Evi separately is so much more beneficial than using them together. As of now, the only argument Rylix has said is "do not use them together cause you might make a mistake" while I've presented my (in my eyes) completely valid argument why using them separately is not so much better. The only argument FOR separate use I can think of is that you can spam the macro before the initial add has died.
    Last edited by Recuiem; 2015-09-23 at 09:50 PM.

  19. #19
    I have mfd mouseover bound to Mousewheeldown, so in fact I can easily spam that keybind and do so, more often than not you can catch a mob at a very low %. Also rapidly moving adds can come to mind which are hard to actually mouseover, if you miss them and not mark the boss on accident you didn't waste anything. Mannoroth Infernal come to mind. (I know you can look at their cast bar, still one of the more stressful fights as combat)

    But in the end it all comes down to personal preference as there is no golden way that works for everybody. I can see the sound alarm being useful, but I already am using quite the variety on boss abilities.

    Edit: Also dat sig xD
    Watch me play Rogue in Nihilum on Twitch. Armory link I answer all Rogue and other questions from stream-chat.
    Formerly known as nihna on MMO-C

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by RylixTV View Post
    For continuous cleaving a dagger in the main hand will provide more dps than 2x slow. Off hand always slow.
    Do you use weapon swap macros during fights (and if so, which fights?) or do you just keep the dagger through the entire fight? On the fights where it's a gain to use a dagger ofc.

    I'm guessing it's a dps gain in fights like Iskar to only swap to dagger in the add phases, but I'm a bit unsure on fights like Xul'horac.

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