How to burst correctly? *Arcane*

[vitaminc]

Posted this at AT but no luck with reply.

Ok, so I tried to do this, for Iron Reaver
ABx4, if PoF proc on boss, PC, AP, then spam all AM on boss then burn AB or AM on PC till 70%. Usually by now AP is over, I cont to AB to 50% and evoc. If there's no PoF proc on boss at start, I will just fire all AM before PC, AP and burn. At times, my AP is over but I still have ~70% mana, due to AM procs. Do i continue to burn below 50 and evoc, especially during at start when there's lust? On dummy it seems to be better in dmg but I am not 100% sure.

I can burst to about 200K at start, but this is no where near the 800K or 1M burst I see from some. Even if I compare to same ilvl range, they are still doing 500k about. I tried so many variance to see if it makes diff, but nothing gets me near 500k, not even 300k.

So, what is my problem? Is it I really got it wrong on how to burst...?

Armory:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...oufix/advanced
Logs:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...mary&source=20'

Thanks.

[Deleted]

You should fire all AMs on the boss before placing Crystal regardless of PoF or not. You want the maximum amount of ABs inside AP so dont go into AP with AMs still on you.
Due to Ring i prefer to use AMs proccing from the first 1 or 2 ABs instantly to build up 4 AC-charges. So with BL you should need 5-6 seconds until u place PC and start burn.
So 4x (AB or AM)->PC->AP
Burn is then ABs and AMs weaved on boss ONLY with PoF which in my case is very rare. PoF mostly procs very fast so when u place PC the mark has a duration of maybe 4 or 5 seconds so u need an AM-proc inside the first or second AB which is not very often.
After that just weave AB AND AM into crystal. Use AM as soon as it procs. After Crystal stop using AM and nuke the last 5 seconds AB.
Then evo back (1 or 2 ticks depending on your mana) and start weave.
All you need is luck with procs. Perfect start would be 2xAB procing 2xAM->2xAM procing 2 Ghosts->PC/AP->AB->PoF gets on PC->Burn without any AM procing->Evo back. You will get an ridicoulus amount of dmg. But this is only if the stars align which is... dont talk about rng.

[shi]

Something is like to note is that the shorter the fight the higher the dps peaks will look on WCL. You can demonstrate this by truncating the fight length manually.

[Zulandia]

The Nithramus in your opener only hit for ~172k? There's your issue I pretty much guarantee the logs you are seeing burst that high are only hitting it with a decent explosion. For reference my opening Nithramus burst is generally in the 600k-1M range barring absurd RNG.

(And yes I realize some of that is cyclical...burst higher = more ring explosion but there is no way you were casting for the majority of that ring).

[vitaminc]

The Nithramus in your opener only hit for ~172k? There's your issue I pretty much guarantee the logs you are seeing burst that high are only hitting it with a decent explosion. For reference my opening Nithramus burst is generally in the 600k-1M range barring absurd RNG.

(And yes I realize some of that is cyclical...burst higher = more ring explosion but there is no way you were casting for the majority of that ring).

Wow, how do I get that kind of burst? I know a lot is RNG but is there something I am missing in my rotation? I am not the ring user, one of our melee is, but 172 vs 600 is a lot of difference and I don't think I ever seen mine gotten so high. So it can't be RNG for my case (or I would have seen a least few 600K burst). The highest burst I have reached so far is only 200K... Mind share how you start for Iron Reaver burst?

[Atherius]

Haven't played in a long time now, but shouldn't you avoid using AM during PC unless you reach 3x stacks? They way i opened on Iron Reave was to get 4x charges using AM procs if i got them to proc 4set ->PC->AP+ ring(if u can use it) -> spam AB onto PC. Never use AM unless you cap at 3x AM. Try to finish with PoM on crystal. Then spam AB on boss until AP is over -> evo to 100%... If you have no AM procs, you'll reach 20-30% mana or maybe less. But your dps will skyrocket no matter what because of mage trinket. I managed 800k Nithramus with 710 ilvl on dummies selfbuffed + hero.. no pot. But that was with 2x 4 set procs during the first 7-8 sec on PC...
It really comes down to how many 4 set procs you get in the beginning.. just make to sure to dump AM on the boss BEFORE you use PC and not on the PC

[Zelendria]

The opener will be the same for any ST fight. I think right now the biggest difference between Mage's is how they incorporate the PoF proc. There seems to be a myriad of variety in logs of who does what when...
Take the best Reaver log on Mythic which is also the best parse across all classes.
He did:

Int Pot + AB precast at 2s (Standard)
AB
PC
AP

And then standard practice of a burn.

By using AP/PC at AC2 he's probably trying to improve his chances of getting PoF to proc on the crystal and not the boss. A standard opener getting to AC4 almost always triggers PoF on the boss before you put your PC down which means you need to rotate AM on boss, AB on crystal.

Saying all that; 172k Nith Explosion at your ilvl is just low even with no RNG.

[Woobels]

The opener will be the same for any ST fight. I think right now the biggest difference between Mage's is how they incorporate the PoF proc. There seems to be a myriad of variety in logs of who does what when...
Take the best Reaver log on Mythic which is also the best parse across all classes.
He did:

Int Pot + AB precast at 2s (Standard)
AB
PC
AP

And then standard practice of a burn.

By using AP/PC at AC2 he's probably trying to improve his chances of getting PoF to proc on the crystal and not the boss. A standard opener getting to AC4 almost always triggers PoF on the boss before you put your PC down which means you need to rotate AM on boss, AB on crystal.

Saying all that; 172k Nith Explosion at your ilvl is just low even with no RNG.

I was going to post this, every single log seems to be doing something different, atleast on single target.

Last time I checked the top Zakuun log dropped his PC after the first AB precast.

Plenty of very high end logs use their missiles on PC too so I'm not sure if it's worth it to not do that.

At the end of the day you're at the mercy of RNG with this spec anyways.

[Zelendria]

PoF on your opener is like Russian Roulette. How many times are you willing to pull the AB trigger before placing your PC with no idea what chamber the PoF proc is sat in.
It's a love/hate trinket that's for sure.

[Deleted]

There is no reason for russian roulettes (and it's a mistake due to the gambler's fallacy). The way it's done is you follow the priority that a simulation shows has the highest probability of success. It is though a problem when they make setups so complex that we require sims to know what to do.

e.g. It's almost impossible to find intuitively when exactly to give up trying to proc 4-set in order to not waste class-trinket-boosted AB.

They should try to keep rotations able to be figured out intuitively and if that makes specs simpler, so be it.

[Deleted]

There is no reason for russian roulettes (and it's a mistake due to the gambler's fallacy). The way it's done is you follow the priority that a simulation shows has the highest probability of success. It is though a problem when they make setups so complex that we require sims to know what to do.

Still its russian roulette. I dont know what a trinket proccing or not has something to do with simcraft. If it doesn't proc and everything is done right your DPS is still lower than when its procing and you make a mistake.
The problem is the op asked what people do which do 500k+ in there opener. And there is no simcraftrule to get to there point. There is only luck. So to answer the question russion roulette is right.
You will get higher numbers if u know in with chamber PoF is waiting. If u get this right you will burst for more. But there is no skill involved.
If u need a proove at this just look at toplogs and compare that to your holy simcraftrotation and u will see they differ.
The question of the thread is not: "How do i do the most DPS overall" (which would end in looking at simc). Its "How do some people burst so incredibly high at the opener"

[vitaminc]

Thanks for all the discussion, it's very valuable to me.

To a certain extend, I believe I want to know "how do I burst so high at opener" because I believe it will give me the most DPS overall. I believe the longer we take to kill the boss, the worse Arcane will perform. Top rankings all took 2 mins+ to kill Iron Reaver and my guild took 7mins. That's a lot of diff and down time in between, which will make us suffer. Also, due to the RNG, the longer it takes means the more RNG I will face than say, kill it within 2 mins and pray I have 1 RNG right.

Nonetheless, I will try to change 4AB->PC->AP to 2AB->2AM->PC. It's true that when I do 4AB, 95% of the time PoF proc on boss, and I am torn with the weaving. Past few days I've been trying on dummy, I find ignoring PoF proc at boss totally and continue AB on PC do better DPS for me. I am not sure this is the right thing to do.

And the million dollar question, I am still torn if I should ignore AM and focus AB on PC (unless 3 stacks AM). It seems the top mages are doing different things and I do not have the knowledge to sim the right way...

[Deleted]

Current overall conclusion is weave AMs on (and only on) PC. After PC drops just spam AB until AP is over.
Big Disclaimer: Dont look to much into top logs. A reaverkill of 2 minutes is far more then one player doing a right opener. Depending on your raidsize your opener alone will be only a very small factor for "how long does my guild" need.
The fact the longer it takes the more rng is false assumption. The longer it takes the more balanced will be your rng. A 1 minute fight will have a varience of +-50% DPS while a 10 min fight will have +-10%. Also look at the fight itself. Guild killing it in less then 2:20 will never see a P2.

[vitaminc]

Current overall conclusion is weave AMs on (and only on) PC. After PC drops just spam AB until AP is over.

I am doing it this way now. However, sometimes AM keep proc and AP runs out as soon as PC is gone, or left with 1-2 sec which I can at most do 1 more AB.

[Deleted]

... and AP runs out as soon as PC is gone, or left with 1-2 sec which I can at most do 1 more AB.

If this happens you do something wrong. Allways PC->AP. Regardless of dropping PC at 2 ACs or at 4 ACs. If AP runs out prior to PC you used it to early. This timings are set in stone. PC->AP->10.5 seconds weave AM/AB->4.5 seconds nuke AB.

[vitaminc]

Hmm, maybe I am too slow at switching target. Let me check again tonight when I am back to test it out.

[Deleted]

Had 1,4m and 990k ring hits on our last Zakuun. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done
Picked this one since i have no special task ect, turret boss.
Go nuts with analyzing, if you really want me to i can give you my thoughts of initiate, usually i get pretty steady results.

[Deleted]

Still its russian roulette. I dont know what a trinket proccing or not has something to do with simcraft. If it doesn't proc and everything is done right your DPS is still lower than when its procing and you make a mistake.

Huh? SimCraft works with priority rotations. It does never alter its priorities randomly, it can only do a pre-determined change (for instance, "if that procced do that, if it didn't proc, do something else").

The "it's not a russian roulette" thing mainly refers to those trying to do something that the simulation shows it has a lower probability of success in bringing higher dps in the long run.

That's very specific and there is no confusion about it (for those coding simcraft at least).

- - - Updated - - -

ring hits

I get a sense someone was confused previously in the thread and thought it was about Arcane Blast hits during a ring buf.

The ring explosion would make more sense to them.

[Zelendria]

Huh? SimCraft works with priority rotations. It does never alter its priorities randomly, it can only do a pre-determined change (for instance, "if that procced do that, if it didn't proc, do something else").

If the SimC works exactly like you say it is playing Russian Roulette plain and simple. It only alters it's play if something happens in this case the bullet being fired. It doesn't know if it will be the first AB or the 6th if we're still on about revolvers.

Some players will always do ABx2 then PC regardless of the trinket proc which is not built, as far as you say, into the model.
Some players will always do ABx4 like a normal setup, and take their chances. I'm in this boat, but more than willing to alter my play if someone can show me a better way with more than a anecdote
Some will only got ABx1....

This is due to the nature of never really knowing when PoF will proc or the gun will go off.

[Deleted]

If the SimC works exactly like you say it is playing Russian Roulette plain and simple.

Let's not play with words here. We were talking about people that know they are taking a risk which is considered lower DPS in the long run on SimCraft. Call it what you want, it's still a mistake to play like that.

i.e. Call regular simcraft "russian roulette" or whatever you want, this was not the point (even though I would not call it that). The point was that it's a mistake to take chances that lower dps in the long run.


I could say that there is an extreme case of taking chances of that sort, basically the "we will wipe for sure if I don't take this chance", but that's extremely rare. Also it's irrelevant on Patchwerk.