Imo, blood DKs would be a bad tank for progressing ? yes/no?

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Nope, far from it. No tank is squishy in a raid environment unless they aren't playing it properly.
Tanks are the least gear dependent they have ever been as well. Minus a few situations, DK tanks are the best in the entire game.

[Dracodraco]

They're clearly referring to that comment - you didn't need more mitigation gear on Fel Lord simply because you just CD'd through disarmed/enrage.

Also, BoS healing have anything to do with magic damage; it just so happens that most spells that trigger Mark of Sindragosa healing are magical.

To the first comment, fair enough - I was still referring to the disarmed/end phase, as those were the points where tanks had issues surviving if not covered in cooldowns, but I can see why that looks like I'm referring to the boss as an entirety.

To the second, in that case BoS' needs to be clarified to me; I only started tanking this tier because we needed a tank, so I've taken most stuff at face value. The tooltip of BoS reads: Mark of Sindragosa causes you to be healed for 10% of spelldamage dealt by afflicted enemies.

What else, exactly, triggers BoS apart from spell damage from enemies that are afflicted with it? (Note that spell damage obviously means any spell damage, not just done to the tank - that's why it works so well on Fel Lord, because apparantly the pulsing damage is creditted to him, NOT the pillars).

[Deleted]

...Obviously those are the points I were referring to, yes. He doesn't do anything outside of the disarmed phase. I thought I made it clear that he hit like a truck inside the phases where he is designed to hit like a truck - and that at those two points (disarmed+30% burn) using BoS is ideal because it comes with an added fuckload of magic damage.
I'm not even sure what we're arguing at this point. I said that the times where Fel lord+Archimonde hits like a truck is ideal situations for BoS. What do you think I said?

I'd also like it noted that as far as I can tell, you have not had much experience with DKs apart from what you can glance from logs and heroics on your alt - your progress on Fel Lord was done with a monk+paladin setup, and due to the nifty fact that Paladins can chain their reductions on demand - your first Fel lord kill literally had you at half the damage taken from melee swings than mine during the enrages, despite chaining cooldowns throughout, but at - DKs are a lot more spiky than paladins, for very obvious reasons. DKs have the tools to handle the spikes, but when something does not hit like a truck on a paladin (avg melee hit from your most recent Archimonde kill: 163K. Avg melee hit from my most recent Archimonde kill: 285K), you should consider that other classes take damage in different ways.

You fail to realize that I played a Blood DK (under the name Mhairï) for almost the entirety of BRF farm and am intimately familiar with how the class works when doing content undergeared. I've tanked Mythic Kromog sub-690 iLvl. If you're going to dig up past logs in an attempt to discredit other players, at the very least do so thoroughly.

I am also fully aware of the fact that Mastery does very little with regards to preventing death when compared to proper rune banking and damage prediction. It has always been viable to play MS during progression with insignificant survivability loss, assuming one is a competent player. The only case in recent memory where this has not been true is Tyrant, but this is because Death Strike has to be treated entirely differently on Tyrant than on every other fight.

My point essentially is that your advocating "don't gear for MS" overall is ridiculous when BoS completely trivializes the actually dangerous parts of most fights, and is almost completely dependent on large amounts of MS to actually do so. Mastery is not a better survivability stat in HFC bar fights and situations that are trivial to begin with.

[Khiyone]

Ah, I guess it was just a misunderstanding then.

It's almost entirely random and is very strange. It can trigger off of physical DoTs, and sometimes physical special attacks as well (Cleave on Butcher, Unseen Strike on Blade Lord Ta'yak), and almost always works on raidwide magical AoE damage. It also heals off of any damage done to a mob with a shared health pool.

The only case in recent memory where this has not been true is Tyrant, but this is because Death Strike has to be treated entirely differently on Tyrant than on every other fight.

You can do Tyrant progression with multistrike gearing (and many DKs did this) but what's most important is Anzu's + WUE.

[Deleted]

Ah, I guess it was just a misunderstanding then.

It's almost entirely random and is very strange. It can trigger off of physical DoTs, and sometimes physical special attacks as well (Cleave on Butcher, Unseen Strike on Blade Lord Ta'yak), and almost always works on raidwide magical AoE damage. It also heals off of any damage done to a mob with a shared health pool.



You can do Tyrant progression with multistrike gearing (and many DKs did this) but what's most important is Anzu's + WUE.

I'm well aware that it CAN be done with MS gearing. I merely mentioned it as the lone example of a fight in HFC where mastery makes an actual difference, given the very significant preventative value of Blood Shield in P2 and P3.

[barleybear]

Let me make this perfectly clear:

All tank classes are fine for progressing, the difference in tank capabilities at equal gear levels depends more on the skill of the player than anything else.

Once you get into Mythic, some tanks will be better than others, since you will want to min/max and some tanks just have a better kit for some fights, but all tank classes are FINE no matter what difficulty you are on. Some tanks will take more damage than others overall, and most of the time there isn't much you can do about it if they're playing perfectly. Some tank classes are more spiky than others - taking little to no damage for a while before getting hit with a huge burst of damage, and then another period of little to no damage, and so on - and some will take smoother but continuous amount of damage (The Monk is a good example of this because of how Stagger works. Smoother incoming damage with less spikes as opposed to less damage but spikier health.).

Skill of the player is also extremely important - a good tank knows when to pop a CD for a large burst of damage, how to position themselves and the boss, how to deal with mechanics of the fight, how to use their active mitigation, and in general knows their class inside and out. A bad tank would, for example, pop a damage reduction CD AFTER a burst of damage rather than before, effectively wasting that CD, and ANY class can make that mistake - it's all on the player.

In short - a good Death Knight is just as good as a good Guardian Druid or a good Brewmaster Monk. A bad Death Knight will impair your raid, but so will a bad Protection Warrior or a bad Protection Paladin. All tanks are fine, as long as your players know how to use them.

[Dracodraco]

You fail to realize that I played a Blood DK (under the name Mhairï) for almost the entirety of BRF farm and am intimately familiar with how the class works when doing content undergeared. I've tanked Mythic Kromog sub-690 iLvl. If you're going to dig up past logs in an attempt to discredit other players, at the very least do so thoroughly.

I am also fully aware of the fact that Mastery does very little with regards to preventing death when compared to proper rune banking and damage prediction. It has always been viable to play MS during progression with insignificant survivability loss, assuming one is a competent player. The only case in recent memory where this has not been true is Tyrant, but this is because Death Strike has to be treated entirely differently on Tyrant than on every other fight.

My point essentially is that your advocating "don't gear for MS" overall is ridiculous when BoS completely trivializes the actually dangerous parts of most fights, and is almost completely dependent on large amounts of MS to actually do so. Mastery is not a better survivability stat in HFC bar fights and situations that are trivial to begin with.

I never tried to discredit you - all I'm saying is, it is easy for you to say that a fight does not hit hard when you've only experienced it from a viewpoint of a class that is designed to be sturdy - previous experience is entirely irrelevant, because we as humans tend to neglect previous experiences quite a lot. Your HP in combat on Archimonde sits at 581K - with an average melee swing of 163K, that means he needs atleast four hits to kill you in a row. For me as a DK, my "resting" hitpoints (expending my runic power as quickly as I get it without blowing stuff like ERW to get a spike in power / getting a lot of multistrike procs) is on average, 750K. You'll notice that Archi only needs 3 hits to kill me from full HP to zero - that's 25% less "time" to recover than you get, which is why I think you are disregarding the strength with which the boss hits; never mind the fact that you're sitting on 6% dodge/parry more than I am, just because of class.

Note that I'm not saying this isn't fine - DKs are built to handle this, and does it exceptionally well (and I'd wager that they're probably the second-strongest tank for Archi behind our bear overlords), but what I'm trying to get across is that things that does not feel as if they're hitting hard on you may be perceived different on another class, and if you don't play it, it's generally hard to notice (as I've learnt after trying to play DK+monk this tier and their wildly different damage intakes).

Lastly, I'm not advocating "Don't gear for MS". Pretty sure I haven't said that anywhere, but it's 8 AM, so what do I know. I will however say, that untill you've actually done decent progress on a fight and know when you'll want to use what cooldowns and can predict the damage intake, Mastery will give a much better safety net than Multistrike. If you need that safety net will be dependant on you and your healers, but for anyone who's asking the question "should I be using BoS for progress?", the chances are that no, they shouldn't; They should be using mastery+defile and learning the fight, then deciding if they can afford to sacrifice stability for more spikes that they will have to cover up with proper play instead. I know for a fact that I tried MS on multiple bosses (RIP 75 gems) but my healers told me each time that they felt more comfortable with me building for 2K mastery rating more instead of 2K MS more.

[Deleted]

Imho blood dk are good for progressing. It is probably one of the best tank especially due to the fact that heals much himself. However, it is very situational and not as easy to use as many believe.

[Monoliith]

You don't "sacrifice mitigation" when you don't play mastery. You just have a much simpler class. Look at your logs and find the burst damage and look at exactly how much Blood Shield is already being wasted over the course of a fight, it does cap out sadly

There are 2 sides of the debate, but I can say this for Multi and it'll be my last post, I'm really not the argumentative or forum-y type of guy. I have been perfectly fine running 2 DPS trinkets a DPS ring and a DPS cloak in mythic hellfire progress. As long as it stacks my multistrike. I am always top on damage taken, and bottom on external healing required to keep me alive. I have a mastery set that I have used to just to see the differences, my survival literally doesn't change because if you are already able to not-die without stressing the healers then you are at the peak of your mitigative raid viability. I even tried multistrike defile one night but we won't discuss how terrible of an idea that was <.<

As to why i said hellfire assualt, I just mistyped. I meant high council. Oops.

*** I actually prefer playing a mastery build myself, and I did all the way up until this raid, but it's just unnecessary now with externals, the built in haste on gear, the passive mastery you are going to get anyway, and our dogshit trinkets and tier bonus's just compound the problem(mastery being on tier pieces, multi on offpieces only sans 2)

**** Oh, and this IS my main Blood DK (I have the other 4 tanks as well). Not a "forum bait" or something.

[Resurgo]

...I know for a fact that I tried MS on multiple bosses (RIP 75 gems) but my healers told me each time that they felt more comfortable with me building for 2K mastery rating more instead of 2K MS more.

Not trying to fuel the fire or start an argument or anything (honestly)...

The thought that the healers say that make me wonder if something else isn't amiss. I long since never even bothered keeping a Mastery set around (Heck, my main has a rough enough time getting the drops I want, let alone backup gear...) Our guild's main healer has always remarked how odd it was that I was the first tank he's played with that could do the damage I do, take the damage I do, and still be relatively low maintenance for him.

Point being that even with Multistrike/dps gearing/setup, I was still relatively easy for him to keep up. Just made me wonder if something else wasn't being accounted for there.

[Dracodraco]

Not trying to fuel the fire or start an argument or anything (honestly)...

The thought that the healers say that make me wonder if something else isn't amiss. I long since never even bothered keeping a Mastery set around (Heck, my main has a rough enough time getting the drops I want, let alone backup gear...) Our guild's main healer has always remarked how odd it was that I was the first tank he's played with that could do the damage I do, take the damage I do, and still be relatively low maintenance for him.

Point being that even with Multistrike/dps gearing/setup, I was still relatively easy for him to keep up. Just made me wonder if something else wasn't being accounted for there.

*shrug* might very well just be me that's a terrible player, didn't expect to tank this tier, only played it as an alt - I have nowhere near the experience that people like Lazel or Troxism has. The bigger shields and heals smooth out the spikes a lot, which opens up healers to do other stuff - and in a progress environment, where things are bound to go wrong, being able to take care of myself for upwards of 20-30 seconds due to high mitigation stats without needing external help is a great boon. I always plan for failure - that way, I can avoid fatal issues when something does go wrong.

[Raiju]

Not trying to fuel the fire or start an argument or anything (honestly)...

The thought that the healers say that make me wonder if something else isn't amiss. I long since never even bothered keeping a Mastery set around (Heck, my main has a rough enough time getting the drops I want, let alone backup gear...) Our guild's main healer has always remarked how odd it was that I was the first tank he's played with that could do the damage I do, take the damage I do, and still be relatively low maintenance for him.

Point being that even with Multistrike/dps gearing/setup, I was still relatively easy for him to keep up. Just made me wonder if something else wasn't being accounted for there.

It's a personal thing, and hellfire is a little more threatening than the previous tier (and MS a bit less enticing, too). It's like the age old recommended healer spirit levels where everyone has their own number they're happy with. It's also dependent on what healers you have, their style, etc.

[Resurgo]

No, really not saying you're terrible. Possibly just needed to familiarize yourself more? I'll be the first to admit, I look like a really bad tank on new content as I'm adapting to new abilities, but once I get hit by it and identify it, it's generally easy for me to figure out a counter.

[Saiyendra]

It's a personal thing, and hellfire is a little more threatening than the previous tier (and MS a bit less enticing, too). It's like the age old recommended healer spirit levels where everyone has their own number they're happy with. It's also dependent on what healers you have, their style, etc.

I would honestly disagree here. HFC fights are all really boring on farm, and at least Blast Furnace/Blackhand could be somewhat interesting (though we were quite good on these fights).

Even for HFC progression, there was one truly challenging boss (Tyrant) and basically every other boss was easy (see Fel Lord Zakuun/Mannoroth). Archimonde is sort of an exception, but then again there were some players that did that with DPS trinkets.

[Khril]

At the absolute top, defile is 3% total Mitigation over a fight, which is negligible. And ignoring the fact that BoS also heals and stacks SoD to make your argument sound more valid is just going to help keep people from improving. I have no issue with people using defile, but people using it because they are scared of taking damage need to be playing a tank that isn't designed to take damage and go play a druid or warrior. Defile/Masteyr stacking is a trap (crutch) for players early on. The only fight in all of HFC mythic (yes even on progression) that is enough of a danger for a blood DK to not wanna use BoS, you still use BoS on and just equip the kilrogg trinket (Tyrant, which is a bitch on a B-DK because the debuff double dips into us multiplicatively).

- - - Updated - - -



You actually have a solid point, if he is incapable of getting the multi up he should use defile on the 2-3 fights with almost no magic damage, but even then, the magic burst fights like reaver, HFA, Kormrok, Gorefiend, Kilrogg, Iskar, Socrethar, Fel Lord, Xhul, And Archi you can use Sindy as a 2min burst survival CD much more effectively then you can use defile. A passive 3% damage mitigation for a blood DK is MUCH less valuable than a massive sustained HOT (even if it's just 5-15seconds). Pure HPS isn't very valuable for most tanks right now, unless it is a monstrous amount. Which sindy heals for.

It's not the fact that BoS's healing is more beneficial than defile's mitigation. It's about how the playstyles are completely different. It's about how you have to stack multistrike, rather than mastery. It's about how during BoS you can't spam death coil, and gain blood charges for more runes. The increase to blood shield from stacking mastery is far more beneficial for a tank that has trouble surviving with breath, than using breath to fix the issue. Because, with breath, you have to stack multistrike. Once breath drops, he's gonna want that mastery to back him up.

[Saiyendra]

It's about how during BoS you can't spam death coil, and gain blood charges for more runes.

Um, any RP expenditures generate Blood Charges.

[lilgayatlas]

wat the hell am i even reading in here

[Deleted]

dno, m8. it's full /retard