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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Albimoo View Post
    Oh, thought we were talking about the same thing. But that isn't a conversation about raiding and it's difficulty. If you consider people in lfr to be raiders then you don't even want to dumb down raids, you want them to become glorified quests.
    For some reason you are imaging the game design revolves around this small subset of "real raiders". I'm not sure where you got the idea everyone else didn't count. They certainly count to Blizzard, as they make up the bulk of expansion sales and sub dollars.

    If the game drove off all the "real raiders" of yours, but attracted back more of the median players, Blizzard could easily come out ahead.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Doubtful. The "best" players in the world get payed to play if I'm not mistaken. Doubt they've give up their lively hood such as it is. Furthermore my feeling is alot of these people are hopeless addicts.
    Oh proving once again how full of bs you actually are lol. How far removed from reality do you need to be to believe notable amounts of players get payed ?

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    For some reason you are imaging the game design revolves around this small subset of "real raiders". I'm not sure where you got the idea everyone else didn't count. They certainly count to Blizzard, as they make up the bulk of expansion sales and sub dollars.

    If the game drove off all the "real raiders" of yours, but attracted back more of the median players, Blizzard could easily come out ahead.
    People who want to raid at all are more than capable of becoming adequate Raiders. And if they don't want to try enough to even read the journal or have a basic understanding of their class then they don't deserve to frankly.

    And if they don't want to try enough to do that then they probably don't care enough to really want to raid and therefore aren't lilely to quit as a result.

    Not everyone who plays wants to raid and to nerf everything to mouth-breath status for the small group of people who:
    -don't want to put any effort into their class or the fights
    -think they are good and should clear all content on the hardest difficulty
    -want to raid but don't want to try

    Some people don't care about raiding, that's cool. The solution isn't to make every raid face roll easy
    Last edited by Albimoo; 2015-10-12 at 12:36 AM. Reason: At

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Albimoo View Post
    People who want to raid at all are more than capable of becoming adequate Raiders. And if they don't want to try enough to even read the journal or have a basic understanding of their class then they don't deserve to frankly.

    And if they don't want to try enough to do that then they probably don't care enough to really want to raid and therefore aren't lilely to quit as a result.
    You are giving one of the common defensive rationalizations of rampant hardcore entitlement you were expressing. It's just self-serving BS, though.

    If casual players really were more likely to quit (and the retention data we have in WoD doesn't show the high end raiders being much, if any, more likely to stick around), then that would mean most ex-players are casual, even more so than those currently playing. If so, Blizzard, if they want to bring back ex-players, needs to go casual. Put another way: if raiders really are super-loyal, Blizzard can and should exploit that by depriving them right up to the limit of what that loyalty will tolerate, since they are "cheap dates".
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    You are giving one of the common defensive rationalizations of rampant hardcore entitlement you were expressing. It's just self-serving BS, though.

    If casual players really were more likely to quit (and the retention data we have in WoD doesn't show the high end raiders being much, if any, more likely to stick around), then that would mean most ex-players are casual, even more so than those currently playing. If so, Blizzard, if they want to bring back ex-players, needs to go casual. Put another way: if raiders really are super-loyal, Blizzard can and should exploit that by depriving them right up to the limit of what that loyalty will tolerate, since they are "cheap dates".
    They aren't more likely to quit, they dropped like flies because this expansion had shit for not-raid content to do. There was nothing for casual players to do. They didn't quit because they couldn't clear the highest difficulty of raiding, they quit because there wasn't stuff that they enjoyed to do.

    I mean that is pure conjecture but has as many facts supporting it's logic as your argument that all casual players want to feel like good raiders by clearing all of the end game content at the highest difficulty.
    Last edited by Albimoo; 2015-10-12 at 12:50 AM.

  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albimoo View Post
    I mean that is pure conjecture but has as many facts supporting it's logic as your argument that all casual players want to feel like good raiders by clearing all of the end game content at the highest difficulty.
    That's not what he's saying.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Amulree View Post
    That's not what he's saying.
    Then why would they give a shit about clearing mythic or the last boss of a tier? They're casual players who by definition don't want to schedule raids or hold down real commitment in a game. That's cool, to each their own.

    He also defined his idea of casual as people currently doing lfr and normal, i seriously doubt that the majority of these players give a flying fuck about archimonde mythic or completing the highest difficulty.

    I believe they just want something to do, kill a few hours, and maybe meet a couple people before they go back to doing whatever casual players normally do. He also said in the same post that normal is properly tuned for these people.

    So in a thread regarding boss mechanics/difficulty where the point was made that these players are the lifeblood (which he's not wrong about) what else could he have meant than for the fights to be nerfed so these players can clear harder content? I mean for me I would probably just look at it from the view that if normally is properly tuned for them, what's the ducking problem, but hey. Just me I guess.

    If I'm completely missing his point I do apologize, just not sure based on his argument, standpoint and with what this thread is about what else he could have meant.

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Albimoo View Post
    Then why would they give a shit about clearing mythic or the last boss of a tier?
    I care that Mythic is even in the game, and that Blizzard focuses attention on the <1 % of players who do clear it when it is relevant, but not because I personally want to clear it.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I care that Mythic is even in the game, and that Blizzard focuses attention on the <1 % of players who do clear it when it is relevant, but not because I personally want to clear it.
    How fun-police of you. How about we add a bit of contrast.

    Holiday events. Let's say each one a year is a "Holiday Boss" and what a long strange trip it's been is the last achievement. I seriously doubt that in a 1 year cycle there is CURRENTLY more than 1-2% of the games population doing every single holiday event every year. Some may do some of them because they feel like it, or just the easier ones but that's about it. I mean they add a bit of new stuff to it but not enough for me to be interested every year.

    So let's just completely remove that, I mean might as well. There is no more than 1% full clearing it every year (tier).

    I'm really not sure where this mindset that "I don't do it so I hate that a company develops it" mindset came in to place but it's incredibly pathetic. Some people like to do stuff you don't want to, get over it. Another bit of food for thought is that it's never the raiders who are crying out about blizzard implementing whatever new thing they won't participate in, because they just don't care.
    Last edited by Albimoo; 2015-10-12 at 05:33 PM.

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by maddnesskhaz View Post
    More mechanics means more difficulty; going back to do MC style bosses with the knowledge, addons and class skills we have today would trivialise them. All they could then do to make it 'difficult' would be tune them ridiculously highly on healing / dps checks. Which is boring and uninteresting.

    Patchwerk style bosses aren't very exciting, and you certainly couldn't make an entire instance out of them.

    Personally, something like Operator Thogar on Mythic was an amazing fight to learn. There wasn't necessarily a lot of mechanics, but it was the patterns each appeared in and memorising the patterns that made it difficult. It also means each 'step' felt like significant progress rather than just a boss health % based brick wall. Arguably each 'pattern' was a mechanic in and of itself, however, so it doesn't really tick the box for making it simpler. Mythic Oregorger was similar, especially if you used the strat to control the pathing instead of the yolo version.
    But this really isn't true at all. For example, heroic Ragnaros was likely the hardest boss released at his time and his mechanics were completely straightforward, just very brutal and unforgiving. There are many other examples I could give as well, complicated bosses are in fact sometimes so complicated that it makes them unintuitive and awkward and as such need to be tuned to be easier than the straightforward approach.

    As for the OP: I completely agree. While I didn't do HFC before I stopped raiding, many of the BRF fights seemed bloated with needless amounts of random mechanics that very loosely seemed to form any kind of theme. There's a lot of splash damage, stacking and coordinated moving to the extent that it feels like raiding turned from killing a boss to "Synchronized Swimming: The MMORPG". It doesn't feel like you're fighting an enemy with a cohesive fighting style and theme, you're fighting a bloat of familiar mechanics mashed together in a different form each time. Even HFC seems guilty of this from what I saw through watching videos, but I can't say for sure because I personally haven't bothered with it (although I will say that I've heard it's more enjoyable than BRF).

  11. #291
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albimoo View Post
    How fun-police of you. How about we add a bit of contrast.

    Holiday events. Let's say each one a year is a "Holiday Boss" and what a long strange trip it's been is the last achievement. I seriously doubt that in a 1 year cycle there is CURRENTLY more than 1-2% of the games population doing every single holiday event every year. Some may do some of them because they feel like it, or just the easier ones but that's about it. I mean they add a bit of new stuff to it but not enough for me to be interested every year.

    So let's just completely remove that, I mean might as well. There is no more than 1% full clearing it every year (tier).

    I'm really not sure where this mindset that "I don't do it so I hate that a company develops it" mindset came in to place but it's incredibly pathetic. Some people like to do stuff you don't want to, get over it. Another bit of food for thought is that it's never the raiders who are crying out about blizzard implementing whatever new thing they won't participate in, because they just don't care.
    Really? It's never raiders complaining that's rich. Wahhh dailies are forced cause I need the gear so I can "competitive".

    Some people like to do stuff that you don't. Like farming dungeons for valor to buy tier gear. RAIDERS whined so hard gutted.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2015-10-12 at 05:48 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Really? It's never raiders complaining that's rich. Wahhh dailies are forced cause I need the gear so I can "competitive".

    Some people like to do stuff that you don't. Like farming dungeons for valor to buy tier gear. RAIDERS whined so hard gutted.
    So being as "in" with blizzard as you clearly are would you mind giving the link to the normal people showing that the majority of forum posts complaining about the valor system were made by players completing end game content? And the blizzard post stating that this was why they didn't feel it should be in there game?

    I mean you clearly have information we don't.

  13. #293
    I don't think Valor was removed due to complaints at all. I think it was removed because Blizzard decidedly, foolishly, that they needed to reduce the reward of content they didn't consider worthy. I say "foolishly" because the reward engineering of WoD has been one of its most screwed up aspects.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  14. #294
    Dreadlord Kyux's Avatar
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    No, I don't think they're too complicated. Most are pretty simple to be honest. Sure there might be a lot of mechanics, but not for your role. Iskar for example, as a tank it's interrupt when you have the orb, tank swap and run away for the fel chakram, pick up adds. Not too bad right? Also we all want bosses to be unique and not rehashed old mechanics so undoubtedly bosses will become more complicated and interesting as time goes on. They used the easy/first ideas in vanilla, we're now in WoD, it's been 11 years of bosses.

    Also, when it comes to heroic and mythic shouldn't the bosses be complicated and hard?

    As for LFR, aren't people complaining that it's just a cake-walk? So then aren't complicated bosses good in that situation? It forces random people to cooperate doesn't it? It lets random pugs learn the fights in a setting where the mechanics won't hit too hard.

    Basically: no, mechanics are fine and suit each of the raid difficulties. Just feels more complicated because we're so late into WoW.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I don't think Valor was removed due to complaints at all. I think it was removed because Blizzard decidedly, foolishly, that they needed to reduce the reward of content they didn't consider worthy. I say "foolishly" because the reward engineering of WoD has been one of its most screwed up aspects.
    Don't disagree with you. Wish they had a more effective method of keeping dungeons somewhat relevant and crafted pieces gave a huge power spike to people with gold that others who are working on heroic wouldn't have access to.

  16. #296
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albimoo View Post
    So being as "in" with blizzard as you clearly are would you mind giving the link to the normal people showing that the majority of forum posts complaining about the valor system were made by players completing end game content? And the blizzard post stating that this was why they didn't feel it should be in there game?

    I mean you clearly have information we don't.
    In so far as the dailies were concerned it was everywhere.

    As for the valor systems being removed well that's very true they've only expressed some nonsense about simplifying their currency systems. They've been "removing" valor for years ever since they started gutting the rewards from it. I do recall reading them saying something about tier for raiders for example that's why it was removed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I don't think Valor was removed due to complaints at all. I think it was removed because Blizzard decidedly, foolishly, that they needed to reduce the reward of content they didn't consider worthy. I say "foolishly" because the reward engineering of WoD has been one of its most screwed up aspects.
    Design decisions aren't necessarily made for one express reason or another. I"m sure the above is true. But I also know many a raider complained about having to cap valor, having to run dailies, being "compelled" to do content outside of the raid because they "needed" it and it felt "forced" to do.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Albimoo View Post
    Don't disagree with you. Wish they had a more effective method of keeping dungeons somewhat relevant and crafted pieces gave a huge power spike to people with gold that others who are working on heroic wouldn't have access to.
    Thing is they had an effective system. For whatever reason they removed it. At least in part the reason for this was the developers are very sensitive to the complaint that certain content if it rewards too well is forced. For example, in wotlk people felt "forced" to have to run the 10 man versions of raid instances because of BiS from 10 man icc or whatever. Same for dailies in mists. That argument can be made about valor systems as well, in fact the dailies in mists were specifically there to open the valor vendors. So yea actually you can find the complaints about valor vendors very easily. Just go back a year or two to all the daily complaints. Shit I complained about dailies. Fuck dailies. But the complaint was because they removed the tabards and limited your options to rep farming to basically just dailies when people were perfectly happy running wotlk dungeons for gear.

    It's so fucking dumb that they moved from this system. I can't express how much of a colossal multi year cock up this has been and no matter what reason or reasons you come up for them doing it it's fucking awful.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2015-10-12 at 09:05 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #297
    I'm not defending them removing valor, I'm defending mythic and the raiding scene.

  18. #298
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Thing is changes like the ones made to valor get made because of the raiding scene. For whatever reason. Either to encourage as much participation as possible or because members of the scene don't like that they were "compelled" to run content beyond the raiding scene. Fact is raiding as content kinda sucks all the air out of the room.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Thing is changes like the ones made to valor get made because of the raiding scene. For whatever reason. Either to encourage as much participation as possible or because members of the scene don't like that they were "compelled" to run content beyond the raiding scene. Fact is raiding as content kinda sucks all the air out of the room.
    There is literally no way to know if that was the case. Blizzard had kept and removed a lot of things and unless you are them it is outlandish to say it is all due to one demographic.
    Maybe some raiders hated it, some liked it. I didn't mind as it gave me a free avenue to gear up an alt and quickly didn't need the valor gear on my main so didn't really give af.

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