Is it time to kill the second tank?

[FuxieDK]

gonna sound creepy stalker style and derail thread but is that you harryhood from ffxi kupo linkshell!? he use to use that same sig!

No idea, what or who that is, so nope.. ;-)

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as a tank you are expected to form your own group and show a little leadership

..... so that's the reason, most RLs are dps?

[Starbrand]

I'm all for requiring more than one tank, but I wish the mechanics were a little more creative than the usual "swap at 3 stacks". :/

im all for this idea. and I also think we cant really afford to utilize only 1. the raids composition will be less diverse and not allow people to try out dual speccing.

[Tojara]

I'd rather they get more creative such that 3 tanks could be used more often than not. Sure we get them from time to time, but that's typically a design flaw in regards to low DPS requirements, low healing requirements and a lot of abilities simply not targeting tanks to begin with.

You don't see tanks plentiful because raid groups require a fixed amount (2), with the ratio of healers/DPS being much higher. On the flip side, dungeon groups have much more favorable ratios in regards to tanks, thus, you have a perceived shortage in tanks when running 5 man content. One of the problems facing tanks is that while tanking isn't necessarily difficult (it's arguably the easiest role in the game IMO) it's that guilds are rarely looking for tanks. One is for the above reason, the other is the most people who tank that I've found, are normally long time established players who don't want to play another role.

While I get the 'forced' tank swap mechanics thing being old, it's really not that bad. You can dumb down a lot of mechanics for DPS too and healers. Typically we only really get good tanking fights on council type fights, or adds that live a long time with interesting abilities. Even then, a lot of that just boils down to interrupts, stuns and using active mitigation if the encounter requires.

[Drithien]

Simple question, I suppose.

...Too many encounters essentially throw in a tank-swap, and not a lot else...

Too many encounters essentially require damage-dealers to just deal damage as well. Should we get rid of all but one of them? Healers work in a similar way. How about having raid groups of three people then, so that everyone can have a truly unique role? Or perhaps damage dealers can be of 4 kinds: melee physical, melee magical, ranged physical, and ranged magical; so the total number could go up to 6.

Where do you draw the line? That is the question.

Or one of them. The other is just how good of a job have you done, as a developer, up to now, in forming the field upon the line is to be drawn.

And in World of WarCraft's case the answer is: not very good. Unfortunately, through years of seeking to appease some ethereal "casual gamer with next-to-no capacity for intellectual function, or control of his limbs, who still demands, absolutely demands, perfect balance, regardless of the fact he can't even get a simple rotation right"; the game has been streamlined and homogenised to an incredible degree.

You pinpointed the actual flaws yourself: fights are similar, classes/specialisations are similar. This is the issue. This is what needs work on. Lots of it.

The developers seem to understand it now, partly. Perhaps Legion will bring some good improvements.

In anyway, the solution to me is to fix the homogenisation/boredom/simplification/streamlining problems. Not cut things off. They did that in Cataclysm, and we ended up with one of the most dry expansions ever.

[Sky High]

in it's current state... I guess but I don't want it to be that way. I liked the days of using 5 tanks for one boss encounter. not that many now but they need make secondary tanking more important.

[stomination]

I hadn't really thought of it like that, but it's certainly a valid approach. The problem is possibly:

"How many tanks is enough?"

That might make rostering them difficult but, then again, if we expanded the possibilities of Retribution, Frost, Arms, Enhancement and Demonology as mentioned... It's also a break from the current consignment.

Good post.

how many melee/range/heals is enough?

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Tank swaps almost always feel forced and stupid. I'd like to see that mechanic go.

just about every mechanic is forced upon you.

[KyrtF]

Hell no, I want them to make encounters require MORE tanks, not less.
I'd like if a raid comp required 4 tanks so that people who want to tank can actually play the role and that we have more tanks around.

The idea that people aren't tanking because there are too few pots??
That's funny. Laughable even.

People aren't tanking because they don't want to tank. It's a thankless role that involves a lot of responsibility and (at times) abuse. The tank is, perhaps by necessity, the leader deciding when to attack, where to position the boss and so on. And it is a role that by its nature and that of the players can't have an "understudy". You can't keep a second tank around doing nothing just in case the tank dies. Groups want that space filled in by a DPS.

So - no. There is a reason Blizzard got rid of encounters requiring so many tanks. The OPs suggestion - beefing up the tanking capabilities of Rets and others so they can step up if needed - has more of a basis in reality.

So - no. The lack of tanks isn't caused by the lack of tanking slots. Its caused by a lack of desire to take on the role.

[Raqubor]

The reason there are less tank players is because people don't want the responsibility of tanking.

Demand for tanks is almost always greater than the supply. It is not harder to get a raid group as a Tank.

I tried getting in to raid groups as a tank and most raid groups (guilds) already had fix tanks.
And you literally get replaced immediately when a tank with slightly higher ilevel pops up (in pugs).

Last time I mained a tank and raided was in Cata and getting to tank was always down to sitting out someone (another tank).
As Accendor said it's a doom loop. No need for more than 1-2 tanks per group -> not enough people who get the chance to tank -> not enough tanks.
The general tardiness and abuse towards the tank role isn't helping either. So even if there would be enough people who want to tank many are put off by the terrible community.

Make raids require 4 tanks. Make adds two shot dps players so they need to be tanked. Make mechanics where the tanks can soak stuff.
Council type fights where you tank 4 bosses at once, etc..

[Deleted]

I think there should be more diversity from encounter to encounter. If you look @Method e.g. they used 3 tanks on Mannoroth and (correct me if I'm wrong) for all other 12 encounters 2. And the 3rd tank on Mannoroth was basically for convenience reason because they had enough damage.

I don't like that EVERY encounter is tuned for 2 tanks. I'm fine with 2 tanks being the "standard model" but it should vary from encounter to encounter. Assuming you have a raid with 13 encounters I would say 7 fights 2 tanks, 1-2 fights 1 tank, 1-2 fights 4 tanks, rest 3 tanks. They introduced dual specs a long time ago so this would actually be now problem at all. I play paladin and I change from Holy to Ret on some encounters why shouldn't the tanks be able to do the same thing?

[Noradin]

Why not kill all tanks? :P

[Deleted]

I wish we could go back to TBC where we sometimes needed 2-3 tanks depending on the encounter. Most bosses being taunt immune and tanks needed simply for due to the amount of damage they were taking. Good example is Tidewalker, Vashj, Kael, Illidan, Kalecgos etc.

[Whitemist]

I don't understand the question, we aim to kill the the 2nd tank every go!

Joke aside, I think it's time to maybe look over the synergy of how 2 tanks are supposed to work. I have no direct suggestion, but the 1-2-3 swap, 1-2-3 swap, rinse and repeat is getting a tad old. Interesting topic to be honest.

[Pua]

Joke aside, I think it's time to maybe look over the synergy of how 2 tanks are supposed to work. I have no direct suggestion, but the 1-2-3 swap, 1-2-3 swap, rinse and repeat is getting a tad old. Interesting topic to be honest.

Aye, if I could redo the poll I'd probably go with better options... But it seems to me that most people in the thread were turned off by the "default one tank" that I suggested, but would heavily support encounters that require more, and the expansion of certain specs that can "off tank".

[Sonnillon]

Closed per wishes of OP.