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  1. #21
    Mechagnome Pearl1717's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redsparowe View Post
    At this point I'm mostly just hoping they DON'T overhaul holy for the xpac, I'm hoping that some number tweaks, the overhaul of disc and a sprinkling of extra flavour will be all that's needed to make holy competitive for the PvE throughput topspot.
    I completely agree with this. I actually enjoy the current holy playstyle as well. They are definitely in need of a numbers tweak, and it is really frustrating that they haven't done that at all this expansion. I really hope that means that they will get a significant numbers tweak going into legion and make them the top priest healing spec.

    However, I remember going into WoD, most people were saying that holy was in a great place, and disc was terrible. And well...... we all know how that turned out...
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Pearl1717 View Post
    I completely agree with this. I actually enjoy the current holy playstyle as well. They are definitely in need of a numbers tweak, and it is really frustrating that they haven't done that at all this expansion. I really hope that means that they will get a significant numbers tweak going into legion and make them the top priest healing spec.

    However, I remember going into WoD, most people were saying that holy was in a great place, and disc was terrible. And well...... we all know how that turned out...
    Well, disc *was* terrible before the bandaid Grace + 20% PW:S buff, of which the latter was ultimately reverted.

    Could you imagine how disc would play out currently without Grace?
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  3. #23
    It can't get much worse. It has been the bastard spec for priests for years now. Priests are in an odd spot being the only class with 2 healing specs and it seems Blizzard cannot wrap their minds around their own choices. Priests that want to heal are going to get hit the hardest I think by the new weapon system. The real wild card is how disc is really changed. If it still is a strong healing spec with added dmg then everybody will want that over holy. If it is a watered down class that does some healing and some dps then nobody will want them. I would be uneasy if I played a priest as my main right now.
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by PC Mustard Race View Post
    Honestly, I doubt that they will let atonement do any huge damage. It's more likely to be a flavor thing more than anything else. Maybe bleeding edge world first guilds will care about the damage, but I doubt the vast majority of heroic and mythic raiders will find the damage from atonement so enticing that disc is a must have. If the damage is so good it does end up like that, then frankly the dev team needs to be removed entirely and replaced.

    I would assume it's intended to do just as much healing, and then the atonement damage will be something very minor, maybe a few % of what an actual DPS will do. Atonement doesn't need to do a lot of damage, if the healing scales to a huge percentage of the damage. If it was 500% of the damage, than you can have smite and such do garbo damage, and still put out good healing, with the main effect being the flavor of how the class heals.
    If you use fistweaving as an example like they have, it will be lower dmg and healing then you want from anybody. Maybe they are going to add some sort of stance dancing like monks can do fistweave to regen resources and kinda passively heal while doing a little dmg and not being counted as range, then a different stance to dump bigger heals and fit into the normal healer roles.
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  5. #25
    Is it becoming a Holy Ranged DPS spec? No? Then my answer is no.

  6. #26
    If we take the feedback provided and the failure to act upon feedback from t18 and the arch trinket, I don't believe anything can be predicted aside from community input being deemed worthless.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Redsparowe View Post
    IMO Holy has a diverse toolkit right now with a decent spread of 'padding' and life saving abilities, gearing matters but no stat is useless or overpowered.
    This is pretty much my impression of Holy as well; it's got essentially all of the pieces it needs, but some tweaks to improve its capabilities to a degree would be welcome.

    A few things I wouldn't mind seeing would be,
    1. Make Serendipity increase the healing of Heal by 10% or 20% per stack, perhaps in lieu of the mana cost reduction for Heal.
    2. Return Cascade's ability to refresh Renew in Chakra: Serenity.
    3. Change Holy's Mastery to a direct 1.25% increase in healing per point, perhaps in addition to extending it to apply to all of Holy's non-absorb spells.

    I would also aim for some buffs to Divine Hymn, but I think it would be better for other raid-wide healing cooldowns to be reduced in strength, rather than Divine Hymn's power being increased.

    Of course, this is all in the context of what we have at the moment. With the impending overhaul of Discipline, as well as the removal of Multistrike, I'm mindful that there could be significant changes to the healing specialisations that would significantly change my perception of Holy.
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  8. #28
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Myllior View Post
    This is pretty much my impression of Holy as well; it's got essentially all of the pieces it needs, but some tweaks to improve its capabilities to a degree would be welcome.

    A few things I wouldn't mind seeing would be,
    1. Make Serendipity increase the healing of Heal by 10% or 20% per stack, perhaps in lieu of the mana cost reduction for Heal.
    2. Return Cascade's ability to refresh Renew in Chakra: Serenity.
    3. Change Holy's Mastery to a direct 1.25% increase in healing per point, perhaps in addition to extending it to apply to all of Holy's non-absorb spells.
    I really like the idea of "spread your HoTs and keep 'em rollin". It's been one of the most fun playstyles to healing and I would be sad to see it gone.
    However, HoTs have some flaws. That is (1) they tend to not heal enough in an emergency situation(which is the common healing situation in mythic), (2) they are blank overheal after that. This can be approached in a couple of ways:

    1. Make healing in general more smooth, less whack-a-mole. Well, I do not believe this is ever gonna happen, since it's been promised a couple of times. It just doesn't work and make healing engaging at the same time. Ruled out, hence.

    2. More direct healing. There are a couple of ways to implement this. e.g. Druids: more hots ontop of hots. Monks: directly heal what has been pre-hoted. Priest: Keep hots rolling via direct heals. Our version works the least, it feels.

    So how to improve upon the lack of spot healing without dragging us away from our hot-rolling-playstyle?
    I think an easy solution could be hyperboloc hots, applying to both renew and echo of light (this has it even in it's name!), following some healing path H= 1/(t^a) * Spellpower... a={0;1}.
    Right now, the holy priest is compelled to pick Glyph of Renew, because renews reaction time would be to slow else. This solution would improve upon the reaction time without making it a clumsy short-timed hot. The buff would persist, even when healing low amounts towards the end, also making it easier to refresh.
    The Healing per Exectution time would stay the same.
    It goes more in the direction of a direct heal, without being a direct heal.
    The Overhealing our hots would produce would be less due to it's hyperbolic nature. This doesn't really matter in terms of effective healing done, but since overheal feels bad as a healer experience, this improves upon the holy experience.
    When the whole raid is taking damage, you just spread renew alot, as you do now.
    BUT, and here we are flawed right now, when you have some single players with incoming damage, refreshing renew (via re-casting it or using yellow chak) now has a double incentive and effectivity. (1) You put a direct heal on top wich interacts with (2) giving that target a Echo (with a hyperbolic healing path) and starting the renew at t=0.

  9. #29
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Sixthumbs View Post
    .
    I'd actually see HoTs toned down for holy, it should be the 'druid' thing, to me holy is about healing in 'chunks'. Not too good for trickling damage but can land those big heals that make you notice the health bars moving.

  10. #30
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Redsparowe View Post
    I'd actually see HoTs toned down for holy, it should be the 'druid' thing, to me holy is about healing in 'chunks'. Not too good for trickling damage but can land those big heals that make you notice the health bars moving.
    Well but that clearly is a design decision. Both could work. The inbetween, not so much. But you might be right when looking for holy's proper niche.

  11. #31
    I'd love to see holy getting some +healing out of serendipity, perhaps with surge of light or the glyph of binding heal being baseline. Making the heal and prayer of healing heal for more would shift some emphasis to the cast time heals and move away from the "CoH, PoM, and renew" domination. I still think that removing the stances (keep the holy word: serenity, discuss with pvp people whether holy word: chastise is worth keeping, and leave the CoH cooldown reduction/renew refresh all the time) would make holy more engaging as well. Needing to spam global cooldown spells to get the CoH up all the time, is a limitation. If they wanted holy priests to feel like they could do more single target healing, being able to spot a serenity at the tank and refresh the renew there while looking at the raid with CoH, more renews, PoM, and PoH as the situation warrants would be an improvement.

    Making power word: shield very mana cost prohibitive would go a long ways toward making discipline a spec that plays engagingly and doesn't make every other healer hate it. Going back to rapture refunding one shield worth (and making it on the weakened soul timer instead of shorter) but otherwise making it a very serious mana sacrifice (and not letting regen trinkets scale to mana irrelevance). Discipline now has to use more spells. Discipline's OP dominance has always been because one thing is so strong that casting anything else isn't worthwhile (shield spam, atonement plus level 90 DAing the whole raid, spirit shell negating mechanics).

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrven View Post
    I would be uneasy if I played a priest as my main right now.
    As someone who only enjoys the disc spec of the three for priests, I'm very uneasy. I'm levelling all other healer specs besides Mistweaver to 100 for Legion, and may main a resto shaman next xpac if bliz crushes disc.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by worcester View Post
    Disc being stupidly overpowered for progression? No way!
    Yes way so frustrating its killing My deep Holy heart to the core to top it off my disc rival just got his t18 2pc now
    on archy tonight he made all the other healers look like chum they really need to fix this. and yeah
    holy needs huge buffs for one our sanctuary heals under 2k a tick i'm 701 wtf lol. also our renew needs a
    to be buffed 8k a tick i'm thinking of maby going high mastery build mastery/multi to heal with our disc
    priest any thoughts would be helpful.

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    Forever Holy.

  14. #34
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    I fully expect Disc rework to break the spec for a while, so Holy will be "better" by comparison. I do remain skeptical if this will mean "actually pretty good" or just "at least it's not Disc". Last two expansions would point to the latter - Holy starts out "ok", Disc gets hotfixed withing few weeks, Holy gets sidelined and eventually forgotten. Any changes are excused with "wait for the next expansion" and the process repeats itself.

    Well, unless I'm wrong and Disc rework is a smashing success - it becomes a decent spec, but no longer reliant on unique mechanics than isn't available to anyone else. Only then can Holy can actually get better for longer than one patch.

  15. #35
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    I agree with above that Holy is very fun to play right now, quite good balance between the spells and playstyles can vary, talents and glyphs vary. So much fun switching between Star/FH/DI proccs/PoH style to Renew/CoH etc. Praise the lord for our new Lightwell and fix regarding GS and ofc PoM-stacking! Thank god we don't NEED to spam 1 spell. We do have spells for every occasion, but yes, some are weak, especially PoH compared to it's cost and "trickyness", otherwise I actually like that it is group based so that you have some sort of control; who to heal?/is it worth casting? etc. Hitting 3 ppl should be worth it, if 5 really good. Right now it feels like a "only if 4-5 ppl are hit and with 2 Serendipity stacks", wich is very limiting.

    I wouldn't mind removal of Chakras completely, it's just a limiter to me as mentioned, and just leave us with Serenity ST heal as baseline, remove Sanctuary OR make it our second raid CD; increasing healing standing inside it. Holy could use some usefullness besides heals! I do not think holy needs a big overhaul at all, it depends more on absorb-healers being blahblah to every other healer atm and I hope they will cut it back drastically for Legion.

  16. #36
    Talking balance:
    • Numbers can be adjusted. I'm not at all worried about this part. If the spec is too weak, tune some numbers. In the end, holypriests should have roughly the same output as any other healer. Repeat tuning until that is the case, or until the age of "holypriest tax" ends. Whichever comes first.
    • My main end goal for balance would be that every spell has a use case. Spells that see too little use can use a buff. Spells that are too mandatory could use a nerf. Fun as Holy happens when we use the right spell for the job, not when we use the powerful spell for the job.
    • Good candidates for a rebalance:
      • Prayer of Healing. It's not packing enough punch.
      • Circle of Healing. It's packing too much of a punch.
      • Heal. It's way too expensive compared to it's effect. It's also not really expensive, which should tell you what you need to know about the effect. Literally every other heal in the arsenal is better in some way. To give this spell a niche, make it free of charge or something. Also, it's way too weak. A long cast with a single target should have some impact, dammit!
      • Renew. It's a bit too cheap, maybe. It doesn't need to be all expensive, but when (early expansion) we're forced to spam it a lot due to not having mana for anything else... that's bad. I'm fine with Flash Heal and PoH costing a lot. The rest of the arsenal should be affordable. Maybe this is not a renew problem?
      • T90 heals. They're all weaksauce as hell in WoD. When players only cast this for the serendipity proc... someone failed at balance.
    Talking mechanics:
    • Holy is in a really good place if you fix the balance.
    • But it's not perfect
    • Chakra is pointless. I say remove it.
      • Red chakra still "works". But just making it baseline won't exactly give holypriests a major advantage anywhere. It's just balanced right now so that smite is utterly useless unless you have red chakra.
      • Blue Chakra is simply countering the artificially long cooldown on CoH, and is enforcing a spam-of-cheap-renews playstyle. This design is counterproductive to a fun playstyle.
      • Yellow Chakra is the closest we get to "useful", but it's an effect so weak that it would fail as a talent option.
      • Holy Word: Sanctuary sucks donkey. 10$ says it will keep on sucking donkey the next expansion, because while major changes like scrapping a useless spell cannot happen outside expansion transitions, Holy is never important enough to actually look at in-depth by someone with a clue.
      • Obviously no dev will remove the pet lovechild mechanic they spent a million years developing, but the scrapping of Chakra will happen in 2-3 expansions time. Trust me on that.
    • Holy has Serendipity. It's used to be a great mechanic.
      • It's not that great anymore because it is tied to Flash Heal. The spell is not a spell to be used lightly, except in the last tier of the expansion. This limits the usefulness of the mechanic. Something should be done here. I think WoD mitigated this issue a lot though; because Flash Heal wasn't an "8 times/combat" spell in any tier of the expansion, and if Legion does the same then I'm fine for now. It's still sub-perfect though
    • T100 talents. Oh man these suck.
      • Clarity of Purpose is the "try out an alternative PoH without party mechanic" spell. I never ever liked it. I have a friend that swears to it, but for me this spell is not remotely on par with PoH. I can't control this thing. And that's saying a lot because PoH is rather weak this expansion. <1% of all holypriests use this, according to wowpopular.
      • Words of Mending is only good because we spam GCD spells and even then it's rather Meh. ~100% of all holypriests use this according to wowpopular.
      • Saving Grace should never have survived beta. The design is wrong; either this spell is so good it's broken, or it is a self-nerf trap spell. Currently, it's the latter. <1% of all holypriests use this, according to wowpopular.
    • T1 / T4 talents. These are the PVP Rows. Come Legion, pvp talents is a separate thing. Maybe we can put in something useful here this time around?

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  17. #37
    I don't know but if you search posts from over the years, I always hear a TON of: "Holy is in a good spot but.." or "Holy has the best kit for.." and yet, Holy is trounced by every healer spec out there. Either its extremely gear dependent or does better when a specific healer of another type is not present in the raid. This is something that's been going on for *years* from xpac to xpac.

    Holy has its brief, brief, moment when you can its numbers do decent in normals, and then eventually, it goes away and Holy sits at the bottom, outshined by all the other healers abilities. I'd just love to see it maintain and go through an xpac as one of the higher end healers raid to raid. Like Druids..I cant recall any raid saying: Hmm, we gotta get a Holy Priest in here or this is gonna be rough. Yet over the years, Ive heard how disc is needed for this or that, a paladin would make it cake to heal, a druid would be a plus for the raid, etc. Now MW is the big rage or 75% of the Form Recruitment posts want a resto shaman. Just once, I'd love for Holy to be in that spotlight.

    Peek at logs: Disc/Paladins are almost mandatory for raids. You see a Holy Priest in logs and its like finding a $20 bill on the street. Why is that??

    I think Holy has an excellent toolkit. Completely agreed. But again, its continuously overshadowed and outshined by everyone else..
    Last edited by VelvetRealm; 2015-10-13 at 01:48 PM.

  18. #38
    Who wants to take the bet our artifact in Legion will be as useful as our class trinket is now?

  19. #39
    It won't be because a) a trinket is an optional temporary item that has alternatives hence optional b) the artifact is not optional since there's no other weapon available and it lasts whole expansion at least.

  20. #40
    So your point is that blizzard won't do something like this to not f*** up the whole spec?
    Yeah, sounds totally like blizz!

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