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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    I think that wording is...inaccurate. Pushing information I think is more reasonable. I'm not advocating they be taught "do this, its Allah's will". Just teaching them what other people really believe and their history and why they believe it. Consider, who meaningful is a choice like "I'm a christian" if the only exposure you ever got to other faiths was from the shit that trickles down to you through your Christian community? That's a choice that should be meaningful.
    Maybe you should read Endus' quote again. Here it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's more that, in a predominantly Christian society, leaving comparative religious studies out until the late teens is an attempt to give churches the opportunity to "set their hooks" without contest from competing viewpoints.
    He's saying the problem is that pushing all religious education to later in school gives the majority religion an unfair headstart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It would grant the same capacity to other religious groups,
    Here he's lamenting the fact that other religious group won't have the same success in recruiting young people. And he (apparently) wants to use the public school system to even that playing field. I think that's wrong, and dangerous. That's what I'm objecting to. And like I said, if you're worried about kids being force fed Christianity, the fix isn't to steer them to other religions, a good starting point would be getting rid of intelligent design.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    I see no reason to wait until kids are half way through puberty to teach them reason and critical thought. That sounds dangerously late.
    We do, in small steps. Have you ever taught seven year olds?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by belfpala View Post
    That's called the Socratic Method. It should be used from day 1 in schools. Obviously facts should be taught. No problem with that. But opinions should always be challenged.
    It's effective, but it's not universally so. There are times to employ it and times to use other methods.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I wasn't saying they should act as bulwarks, I was saying that the purpose of public education is to educate, and instilling critical thought and self-reflection is a big part of that.

    My prior comment was about the motivations of those pushing for this bill, not a statement on the purpose of public education.
    Ok, thanks for the clarification. I've attempted to ventriloquize your viewpoint in my recent posts. Was I accurate?
    Last edited by Merkava; 2015-10-13 at 08:21 AM.

  4. #64
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merkava View Post
    Maybe you should read Endus' quote again. Here it is.

    He's saying the problem is that pushing all religious education to later in school gives the majority religion an unfair headstart.
    I'd really prefer if you stopped putting words in my mouth.

    Again, my statement there was on the motivation of those pushing to leave comparative religious study to later grades. Yes, they want to give their own groups as much chance to maintain blind faith until it calcifies enough in their kids' minds that they'll be resistant to critical thinking.

    It isn't about giving minority religions a 'fair shake', at all. It's about ensuring critical thinking is taught from a young age, as one of the primary ways you do this is by getting students to challenge their own preconceptions.

    Here he's lamenting the fact that other religious group won't have the same success in recruiting young people. And he (apparently) wants to use the public school system to even that playing field. I think that's wrong, and dangerous. That's what I'm objecting to. And like I said, if you're worried about kids being force fed Christianity, the fix isn't to steer them to other religions, a good starting point would be getting rid of intelligent design.
    No, that was just me acknowledging that minority religious groups have the same opportunity, but due to their minority status, they have less cultural influence overall, which means less chance of that culture tending to normalize their views in media and the like. You see a lot more Christmas stuff in movies and TV than you see Ramadan or Solstice stuff.

    Again, you're taking my comments pretty wildly out of context.


  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by buck008 View Post
    We do, in small steps. Have you ever taught seven year olds?
    Yes, not professionally. I can see the look in my young cousins' eyes, the pause they have, while they think about a question I just asked. And then I see a sense of accomplishment in them when they figure out an answer. It's not necessarily a good answer, but I keep asking questions.

    Let's all ride the Gish gallop.

  6. #66
    I was almost shocked to see a southern state fight against religious indoctrination...Until I noticed it exempted the Bible.
    Of course.

  7. #67
    this basicly prevents you from discussing the role of religion in a historical perspective,

    it means you cant learn about the ottoman empire, since the ottam empire was an islamic state and to understand how it functioned would involve understanding islam.
    It means you cant discuss the holy roman empire, since the holy roman empire was a christian state, based on the bible.
    in fact throught the majority of history, politics was indistinguishable from religion in the majority of regions, so basically you can scrap world history.

    Learning about religions does not equal endorsing religions, this was only done because some crazy right wingers found out that kids learned about islam, yes in world history islam is very important to understanding it.
    Last edited by arandomuser; 2015-10-13 at 08:14 AM.

  8. #68
    Titan Grimbold21's Avatar
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    Isn't this why we have Sunday school and the like?

    I honestly can't recall being taught any sort of religious class, with the exception of religious morals class in the 5th grade.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I'd really prefer if you stopped putting words in my mouth.
    Again, my statement there was on the motivation of those pushing to leave comparative religious study to later grades. Yes, they want to give their own groups as much chance to maintain blind faith until it calcifies enough in their kids' minds that they'll be resistant to critical thinking.
    I'll stay up for this. First of all, do you have any evidence of the motivation of the people sponsoring this law? Maybe some quotes? Because without that I'm just going to assume that you're offering baseless speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It isn't about giving minority religions a 'fair shake', at all. It's about ensuring critical thinking is taught from a young age, as one of the primary ways you do this is by getting students to challenge their own preconceptions.
    It's not about giving minority religions a fair shake? Really? Then why did you say this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's more that, in a predominantly Christian society, leaving comparative religious studies out until the late teens is an attempt to give churches the opportunity to "set their hooks" without contest from competing viewpoints. It would grant the same capacity to other religious groups
    That's clearly an expression that in the absence of this law, with religious education being offered earlier, the playing field would be more even.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    No, that was just me acknowledging that minority religious groups have the same opportunity, but due to their minority status, they have less cultural influence overall, which means less chance of that culture tending to normalize their views in media and the like. You see a lot more Christmas stuff in movies and TV than you see Ramadan or Solstice stuff.
    Again, so what? It's not the public school's job to inflate the cultural influence of minority religious groups.

  10. #70
    Her target is teachers teaching about Islam, in order to make it legal she is banning all religions. If she targeted Islam alone, the Supreme Court would throw the law out.

    I don't know, why don't we let teachers do they job as they see fit? Within limits.
    .

    "This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can."

    -- Capt. Copeland

  11. #71
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merkava View Post
    I'll stay up for this. First of all, do you have any evidence of the motivation of the people sponsoring this law? Maybe some quotes? Because without that I'm just going to assume that you're offering baseless speculation.
    I didn't claim I was doing anything other than speculating. But I don't think it's exactly baseless, given that it's based on the legislation they proposed.

    It's not about giving minority religions a fair shake? Really? Then why did you say this?
    I literally just explained that, in the passage you quoted.

    Majority religous groups often seek to prevent comparative religious study in public schools because it introduces other views that challenge their own doctrines, making their kids actually invest in critical thinking regarding their own beliefs. While the same principle would apply to minority religious groups, the majority groups have cultural support due to the widespread nature of their observances, which reinforce their teachings, left unchecked.

    That's clearly an expression that in the absence of this law, with religious education being offered earlier, the playing field would be more even.
    Only in the sense that I'm opposing what looks to be an attempt to further unbalance the "playing field". Which means it isn't really a fair claim.

    Again, so what? It's not the public school's job to inflate the cultural influence of minority religious groups.
    It absolutely is the public school's job to expose students to other cultures and viewpoints.


  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I didn't claim I was doing anything other than speculating. But I don't think it's exactly baseless, given that it's based on the legislation they proposed.
    Then what about the proposed legislation gives you insight into motivations?

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Majority religous groups often seek to prevent comparative religious study in public schools because it introduces other views that challenge their own doctrines, making their kids actually invest in critical thinking regarding their own beliefs.
    Do you have any evidence that's the case here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Only in the sense that I'm opposing what looks to be an attempt to further unbalance the "playing field". Which means it isn't really a fair claim.
    And again, what evidence do you have of that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It absolutely is the public school's job to expose students to other cultures and viewpoints.
    Of course. But that's not exactly what I said, is it?

    Listen, we're not that far apart on this issue as you might think. Feel free to read a post that I made almost exactly a year ago on a similar issue.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post30318884

    The only difference is that here they're waiting until high school. That's all. And if you're really concerned about exposing them to other religions, why not start at the bottom? Kids are a hell of a lot more likely to have a Jewish or Muslim neighbor than a Zoroastrian one.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by arandomuser View Post
    this basicly prevents you from discussing the role of religion in a historical perspective,

    it means you cant learn about the ottoman empire, since the ottam empire was an islamic state and to understand how it functioned would involve understanding islam.
    It means you cant discuss the holy roman empire, since the holy roman empire was a christian state, based on the bible.
    in fact throught the majority of history, politics was indistinguishable from religion in the majority of regions, so basically you can scrap world history.

    Learning about religions does not equal endorsing religions, this was only done because some crazy right wingers found out that kids learned about islam, yes in world history islam is very important to understanding it.
    Indeed, love it or loathe it, religion is important to human history. Indeed it was in history that I made the jump from theist to agnostic (I am no longer agnostic, went a bit further now), learning about medieval Europe and the Crusades, I still remember the exact moment, when we were discussing the motivations of Crusaders and the church and it just hit me- I have no reason to believe a word that these people say, indeed I have every reason to doubt them. It was a wonderful experience for me.

    Learning about that religion X believes is all good, but I think learning about history and the major religious players in history is an especially good thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post


    Remember, legally no one sane takes Tucker Carlson seriously.

  14. #74
    Deleted
    why don t they teach quantum mechanics
    the mathematics of quantum neutrino fields from grade 1 nobody shod advance until they pass it
    Last edited by mmoc1bc8e6de49; 2015-10-13 at 09:49 AM.

  15. #75
    Pit Lord Mrbleedinggums's Avatar
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    Maybe we should just teach religion in school like they do with sexual education. Abstinence! (disregarding the definition of the word defines it as being something pleasurable) It might actually work for once.

    But seriously, there needs to be an overhaul of any religious teachings in the class. I don't mind teaching about history and why people did certain things (Manifest Destiny, etc) but I don't trust half the delusional teachers that would just use it as a ploy to be bias on their faith.
    "Why of course the people don't want war…. But, after all… it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

  16. #76
    Stood in the Fire Chromeshellking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xisa View Post
    You can literally say that about every law ever written.
    Correct we can say this as well.

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