Progression in Heart of Thorns

[Eleccybubb]

It's been 3 years now and people still complain that the game isn't a wow clone.

It's MMO-C. People would complain about their own toast burning here

[Usagi Senshi]

It's been 3 years now and people still complain that the game isn't a wow clone.

I played it for three years.

The game isn't a WoW clone and no one wants that (except for WoW's dungeon system because GW2's is terrible) however, don't kid yourself into believing whatever your grinding for in GW2 doesn't take longer than keeping your gear up to date in WoW or FFXIV.

[Gray_Matter]

I played it for three years.

The game isn't a WoW clone and no one wants that (except for WoW's dungeon system because GW2's is terrible) however, don't kid yourself into believing whatever your grinding for in GW2 doesn't take longer than keeping your gear up to date in WoW or FFXIV.

It all depends on what goals you set for yourself and how much time you want or are able to put into the game. For example, some goals that can hardly be considered grind are:

Completing all of the jumping puzzles in the game.
World completion
Collections (Achievements)
Completing all of the dungeons and fractals
Completing personal and living story

Other goals could well be considered grindy. For example getting a legendary.

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except for WoW's dungeon system because GW2's is terrible

I also disagree here. I have had a boat load of fun doing dungeons with my daughters in story mode.

[Usagi Senshi]

I also disagree here. I have had a boat load of fun doing dungeons with my daughters in story mode.

I prefer having my random queue option, good or bad groups be damned. GW2 is one of the extreme few MMOs that goes against such a system and that annoys me. I still attribute that to part of the reason why their dungeon system failed because they don't care about keeping it relevant with such systems. I have a feeling raiding will eventually change that if numbers aren't satisfactory after a while.

And yes, the fun stuff isn't what I was calling a grind. :P

I've done real grinds in Lineage 2, Aion, WoW (Warlord climb), and FFXI (worst offender here, good god dynamis currency farming and people wonder why I like solo shit in MMOs nowadays, lol). I'm not grinding and spending gold just for a skin.

[Beefsquatch]

.....

The OP literally stated that they want regular power upgrades in gear. They want a gear treadmill. Are we reading the same thread?

There are plenty of people who enjoy the GW2 reward system. I have a guild full of people who like PvPing for cosmetic rewards, or finishing map completion, or getting as many achievements as possible.

If it's not something you enjoy, it's not the game for you. It's pretty simple.

Wewps, I didn't read the OP, clearly. I was just replying to Zito's response.

In any case, my whole point here is that it wouldn't make much of a difference if there was a gear treadmill or not, there are some serious lack of incentives for players to complete the content at hand PvE wise. And from what I've read about HoT, that seems to be the continued trend. Just saying "GW2 just aint for you breh" is such an awful response when people point out some obvious flaws in GW2s system.

[Rivellana]

Just saying "GW2 just aint for you breh" is such an awful response when people point out some obvious flaws in GW2s system.

The reason this is happening is that what you see as a flaw, other people don't see as a flaw. This game is just not built to be like the other games that people are trying to compare it to. The problem is that they shouldn't be trying to compare it.

[Gray_Matter]

In any case, my whole point here is that it wouldn't make much of a difference if there was a gear treadmill or not, there are some serious lack of incentives for players to complete the content at hand PvE wise.

What incentives would you like to see?

[Deleted]

Just saying "GW2 just aint for you breh" is such an awful response when people point out some obvious flaws in GW2s system.

This point especially is dumb. Sorry, but it's true. If you don't like it, don't play it.

I don't like how the gold + last hit system in League of Legends allows you to get lucky and be objectively more powerful than your opponents despite the fact you aren't more skilled than them. Instead of claiming it's a design flaw and that it creates unfair advantages in a PvP game, I just don't play it.

I don't like how meat boy slides around when he hits the ground in Super Meat Boy, it makes it feel loose + not very precise platforming. So I don't play it.

Instead of going into other people's games that you don't like and saying 'The system is shit' then acting offended when you get a response that says 'dont play it then,' why don't you realise that a lot of people like grinding? That, if the system was so shit and the incentives weren't there, nobody would bloody play it?

tl;dr Just cause you don't like it, doesn't mean nobody else does. A flaw is when something doesn't work, not when something doesn't go the way you want it to go. Apologies in advance for any hostilities in this post, it's just a very old argument that is riddled with holes.

[Deleted]

The reason this is happening is that what you see as a flaw, other people don't see as a flaw. This game is just not built to be like the other games that people are trying to compare it to. The problem is that they shouldn't be trying to compare it.

Lol I swear to god the moderators on the subforums will do anything to deffend their assigned game...
After having played GW2 for a while myself, capt killjoy is right. The game lacks incentives.
Of course you re gonna translate that into me wanting stat bloats etc etc no that's not what I want.
I want to do stuff that has a meaning. In MMOs that a big factor where fun derives from. No, not only for me but for lots of people.

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This point especially is dumb. Sorry, but it's true. If you don't like it, don't play it.

I don't like how the gold + last hit system in League of Legends allows you to get lucky and be objectively more powerful than your opponents despite the fact you aren't more skilled than them. Instead of claiming it's a design flaw and that it creates unfair advantages in a PvP game, I just don't play it.

I don't like how meat boy slides around when he hits the ground in Super Meat Boy, it makes it feel loose + not very precise platforming. So I don't play it.

Instead of going into other people's games that you don't like and saying 'The system is shit' then acting offended when you get a response that says 'dont play it then,' why don't you realise that a lot of people like grinding? That, if the system was so shit and the incentives weren't there, nobody would bloody play it?

tl;dr Just cause you don't like it, doesn't mean nobody else does. A flaw is when something doesn't work, not when something doesn't go the way you want it to go. Apologies in advance for any hostilities in this post, it's just a very old argument that is riddled with holes.

How on earth is last hiting in LoL luck?
If you re better at last hiting and denying farm from your opponent, then you are more skilled than him. There's absolutely 0 luck involved in this.

[Deleted]

Lol I swear to god the moderators on the subforums will do anything to deffend their assigned game...
After having played GW2 for a while myself, capt killjoy is right. The game lacks incentives.
Of course you re gonna translate that into me wanting stat bloats etc etc no that's not what I want.
I want to do stuff that has a meaning. In MMOs that a big factor where fun derives from. No, not only for me but for lots of people.

but the fact that gw2 is one of the most popular mmo states that a lot of people also disagree with you, hence what you state as a fact is certainly not so.

[Kazgrel]

I played it for three years.

The game isn't a WoW clone and no one wants that (except for WoW's dungeon system because GW2's is terrible) however, don't kid yourself into believing whatever your grinding for in GW2 doesn't take longer than keeping your gear up to date in WoW or FFXIV.

seeing how gearing in FF14 (which I play) and wow is gated behind weekly reset systems and currency caps, i can get geared much quicker in GW2. Fortunately, gear isn't a primary objective here.

[Deleted]

How on earth is last hiting in LoL luck?
If you re better at last hiting and denying farm from your opponent, then you are more skilled than him. There's absolutely 0 luck involved in this.

'Gold + last hit system' not specifically the last hit system.

The gold system makes the game inherently unfair. If you get a lucky kill - and don't pretend that luck doesnt exist because luck is whiffing a skillshot that your opponent then walks into, luck is your jungler being there at the right time for an engagement, luck is getting a critical hit, luck is your summoners coming off CD at the right time, etc. - then that's about a base of 300g in your pocket.

It meant you could get a lucky kill early and it snowballs. This had numerous effects on the game, such as the popularity of high base damage 'all in' champs like leblanc and riven, and also lead to the 'i gave up first blood, im afk now' attitude of many of LoL's players, as well as a lot of cheesy builds like critplank.

But people love LoL + they wouldn't if this gold system wasn't there. I personally don't like it. Boo hoo right? So I don't play the game. It's super simple stuff.

[Deleted]

'Gold + last hit system' not specifically the last hit system.

The gold system makes the game inherently unfair. If you get a lucky kill - and don't pretend that luck doesnt exist because luck is whiffing a skillshot that your opponent then walks into, luck is your jungler being there at the right time for an engagement, luck is getting a critical hit, luck is your summoners coming off CD at the right time, etc. - then that's about a base of 300g in your pocket.

It meant you could get a lucky kill early and it snowballs. This had numerous effects on the game, such as the popularity of high base damage 'all in' champs like leblanc and riven, and also lead to the 'i gave up first blood, im afk now' attitude of many of LoL's players, as well as a lot of cheesy builds like critplank.

But people love LoL + they wouldn't if this gold system wasn't there. I personally don't like it. Boo hoo right? So I don't play the game. It's super simple stuff.

Nothing which you mentioned is luck.
You hiting your skillshot is either you targeting right aka skill or your opponent being bad at dodging aka lack of skill. Your jungler being there at the right time = knowing how to jungle= skill. Critical hit is luck yes but most champs that rely on crit have builds that build crit to very high numbers so luck plays little factor when you re into that range of the game. Your summoners have a set CD so there is no luck factor in them coming off at the right time. You know exactly when they re gonna come off there is no amount of luck that can change that.
I agree about the other points you made in your original post but when it comes to mobas there is close to nothing in terms of luck that contributes to the gameplay unless you re playing ezreal and randomly snipe ult the enemy jungle and get a kill.

[Deleted]

Nothing which you mentioned is luck.
You hiting your skillshot is either you targeting right aka skill or your opponent being bad at dodging aka lack of skill. Your jungler being there at the right time = knowing how to jungle= skill. Critical hit is luck yes but most champs that rely on crit have builds that build crit to very high numbers so luck plays little factor when you re into that range of the game. Your summoners have a set CD so there is no luck factor in them coming off at the right time. You know exactly when they re gonna come off there is no amount of luck that can change that.
I agree about the other points you made in your original post but when it comes to mobas there is close to nothing in terms of luck that contributes to the gameplay unless you re playing ezreal and randomly snipe ult the enemy jungle and get a kill.

This is off topic. If you didn't intend for it to happen, but it did, and it benefits you, it's luck. That's the long and short of it.

[Rivellana]

Lol I swear to god the moderators on the subforums will do anything to deffend their assigned game...
After having played GW2 for a while myself, capt killjoy is right. The game lacks incentives.
Of course you re gonna translate that into me wanting stat bloats etc etc no that's not what I want.
I want to do stuff that has a meaning. In MMOs that a big factor where fun derives from. No, not only for me but for lots of people.

The color of my username has very little to do with how I feel about the game. There's a ton of other users on this forum alone who have the same viewpoints on this that I do.

For me, I enjoy just playing, and the incentives that the game gives me are worth it to me. I enjoy working towards ascended and legendaries, I enjoy getting achievements, I enjoy unlocking wardrobe and collecting fun items such as pets and toys.

I've played plenty of other MMOs and aside from their gear treadmills, I'm not really seeing much of a difference here as far as incentives are concerned. The other MMOs I've played offer a gear grind. When I get the best gear I can get, then what? Use it to perform an activity I enjoy, right? I won't be getting any more incentives out of performing it, so why else would I do it but for fun? Other games I've enjoyed have also offered achievements, costumes/wardrobe/transmog and pets/toys/mounts to work towards.

I personally don't like it. Boo hoo right? So I don't play the game. It's super simple stuff.

That's exactly what my point has been all along and I guess I don't seem to be making it clear enough? If I don't like a game because of some aspect of it that is a part of the game design, I just don't play it.

[Usagi Senshi]

seeing how gearing in FF14 (which I play) and wow is gated behind weekly reset systems and currency caps, i can get geared much quicker in GW2. Fortunately, gear isn't a primary objective here.

Missed my point completely. When you grind for a legendary skin or something equally as impressive, it takes longer several times over than keeping gear relevant in those games. Basically it really isn't a chore keeping basic gear up to date that some people make it out to be. Especially WoW.

[Sumaku13]

^ this guy gets it! I saw everything coming in HoT and immediately asked for a refund. I get cooler looking gear in FFXIV anyway with less of a grind (still a grind mind you but its more controlled plus I can use a proper dungeon system to do things at my own time). :P

Plus I'm still not a fan of their total reliance on using crafting to make just about everything. GW2's crafting system fucking blows tbh. Its pretty bad when the terrible revamped WoW:WoD system is better.

LMAO! Warlords of Draenor (WOD) crafting system is utterly horrendous and historically this has also been the case. It is literally login for the day, do a daily cooldown and wait behind gated profession crafting materials. There is NOTHING complex or engaging about giving materials to a Garrison vendor, and the fact that you can max level a profession in the first week of an expansion BLOWS. The only time it was ever even vaguely interesting was during TBC expansion.

GW2's crafting system is very grindy but by comparison I would say it's much more engaging than WoW, period. Honestly, professions is one of the major weak links (among other things) in WoD and it's one of the aims for the next Legion expansion to hopefully add some more depth and complexity, as Blizz is boasting that their profession team has "doubled."

Honestly, I don't mind having multiple avenues of gear progression. I would even prefer GW2's profession model to be implimented into WoW to give players who can't fully commit to Raiding/PvP/PvE something else to work towards.

OT: Hoping to come back to GW2 some time and resume my crafting efforts and see what changes have been made. Looks to be some work to do and I enjoy the grindy nature tbh.

[Gray_Matter]

Of course you re gonna translate that into me wanting stat bloats etc etc no that's not what I want.
I want to do stuff that has a meaning. In MMOs that a big factor where fun derives from. No, not only for me but for lots of people.

Ok, what has meaning then. What would you like to get?

[Deleted]

Ok, what has meaning then. What would you like to get?

Some form of character progression. Character progressions can come in many ways.

[MegaVolti]

I need goals to keep playing end game in an mmo, so beyond capping your stats on gear and some cosmetic....what's left?

Having fun? I never understood the call for a gear treadmill. Gear is so annoying and pointless. You can enjoy everything and do all raids and dungeons and experience fun content without having a silly carrot dangled in front of you. Playing the game is what it's about.