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  1. #41
    Honestly i would Sim it to see which is better for you. The haste breakpoint is just a guideline really as that's when you can have a non mind flay RoW rotation. Haste is still good for CoP, even below 35%.

  2. #42
    Deleted
    You can still have a mindflay free row rotation with less than 35%. 35% just gives you more margin of error

  3. #43
    Food for thought.

    Going for the 2400-2600 haste rating for mindflay-less rotation is a few thousand DPS increase on a long fight compared to going all mastery, however there's a point where it actually becomes a dps loss to go for that haste breakpoint as opposed to going full mastery. With the upcoming valor item level increase and people getting close to max level ilvl legendary rings, fights will become significantly shorter on average across all encounters.

    Kilee25's insanity rotation posted in page 1:
    Code:
    actions.cop_insanity=devouring_plague,if=shadow_orb=5
    actions.cop_insanity+=/mind_blast,if=active_enemies<=5&cooldown_react
    actions.cop_insanity+=/shadow_word_death,if=target.health.pct<20
    actions.cop_insanity+=/insanity,interrupt=1
    actions.cop_insanity+=/devouring_plague,if=shadow_orb>=3&(cooldown.mind_blast.remains<gcd*2|(target.health.pct<20&cooldown.shadow_word_death.remains<gcd*2))
    actions.cop_insanity+=/shadowfiend
    actions.cop_insanity+=/mind_spike,if=target.debuff.mental_fatigue.remains>=gcd*1.5&target.debuff.mental_fatigue.stack=5
    actions.cop_insanity+=/mind_flay,if=(target.debuff.mental_fatigue.remains<gcd*1.5|target.debuff.mental_fatigue.stack<5),interrupt=1,chain=1


    CoP BiS List
    (Haste):
    Code:
    head=demon_princes_ascendant_crown,id=124159,bonus_id=567neck=vial_of_immiscible_liquid,id=124212,bonus_id=567,enchant=gift_of_mastery
    shoulders=pious_mantle,id=124178,bonus_id=567
    back=cloak_of_hideous_unity,id=124138,bonus_id=567,enchant=gift_of_mastery
    chest=pious_raiment,id=124172,bonus_id=567
    wrists=contemptuous_wristguards,id=124186,bonus_id=567
    hands=pious_handwraps,id=124155,bonus_id=567
    waist=demonbuckle_sash_of_argus,id=124200,bonus_id=567
    legs=pious_leggings,id=124166,bonus_id=567
    feet=dessicated_soulrender_slippers,id=124150,bonus_id=567,gems=1300haste
    finger1=nithramus_the_allseer,id=124635,enchant=gift_of_mastery
    finger2=loathful_encrusted_band,id=124192,bonus_id=567,enchant=gift_of_mastery
    trinket1=repudiation_of_war,id=124519,bonus_id=567
    trinket2=desecrated_shadowmoon_insignia,id=124228,bonus_id=567
    main_hand=edict_of_argus,id=124382,bonus_id=567,enchant=mark_of_bleeding_hollow
    - For simplicity and in order to reach the haste breakpoint, I've added extra 1300 haste in the equipment in the form of '1300 haste gem' on shoes.

    (Mastery):
    Code:
    head=demon_princes_ascendant_crown,id=124159,bonus_id=567neck=vial_of_immiscible_liquid,id=124212,bonus_id=567,enchant=gift_of_mastery
    shoulders=pious_mantle,id=124178,bonus_id=567
    back=cloak_of_hideous_unity,id=124138,bonus_id=567,enchant=gift_of_mastery
    chest=pious_raiment,id=124172,bonus_id=567
    wrists=contemptuous_wristguards,id=124186,bonus_id=567
    hands=pious_handwraps,id=124155,bonus_id=567
    waist=demonbuckle_sash_of_argus,id=124200,bonus_id=567
    legs=pious_leggings,id=124166,bonus_id=567
    feet=dessicated_soulrender_slippers,id=124150,bonus_id=567,gems=1300mastery
    finger1=nithramus_the_allseer,id=124635,enchant=gift_of_mastery
    finger2=loathful_encrusted_band,id=124192,bonus_id=567,enchant=gift_of_mastery
    trinket1=repudiation_of_war,id=124519,bonus_id=567
    trinket2=desecrated_shadowmoon_insignia,id=124228,bonus_id=567
    main_hand=edict_of_argus,id=124382,bonus_id=567,enchant=mark_of_bleeding_hollow
    - For the mastery set, I've added '1300 mastery gem' on shoes in order to make a fair comparison with the same amount of total stats as the haste set.


    Fight Length: 250s +/- 20%



    Fight Length: 200s +/- 20%



    Fight Length: 150s +/- 20%



    Fight Length: 100s +/- 20%


  4. #44
    Is the only difference between the two sets the gem?

    Simcraft catches the "no-flay" rotation at a much earlier haste break point than 2600. 2600 is for in game. In simcraft, the number is like 1900 haste.

    It's a known fact that simcraft gets more dps from adding mastery after hitting the haste breakpoint. I'd have to open all this in simcraft and do more testing, but the results you are getting seem to be what is expected. The length of the fight affecting DPS is interesting. I assume that this probably has to do with the uptime on Heroism, and probably to do with the fact that too much of the fight is taken up with heroism and execute range - which both basically say "f u" to any semblance of a cast sequence.
    "Falling from heaven is not as painful as surviving the impact."

    DPS Loss - my guild on Proudmoore
    The Old Guard - my guild on Earthen Ring
    Revenant - my guild on Echo Isles

  5. #45
    Yes, the only difference between the 2 sets is the 1300 haste/mastery gem.

    Mastery set has 1327 haste.

    As you mentioned, the fight being shorter means bloodlust uptime is higher, which means that the advantage you gain from going haste (dropping mindflay from the rotation) is completely negated during bloodlust period and execute.
    I can go further and talk about the relative flexibility provided as a side effect of having mindflay in the rotation with mastery set. You don't have to cast DP at 3 orbs like you would with mindflay-less rotation with haste set. This means that you can time your "burst" with temporary buffs like legendary ring, premonition, DSI if you want. This kind of micro management is not possible with haste build without reintroducing mind flay to the rotation.

  6. #46
    If you only have 1627 haste in the "haste" set, the APL would never actually go into a DoTless Insanity rotation.

    I understand what you are saying, and I've had this conversation before. You are trying to use Simcraft to display a higher DPS in order to justify the way that you want to play. You shouldn't need to do that in order to do what you want to do. Just do what you want to do.

    On the other hand, if we're just trying to do a simcraft race to find the best DPS, we do need to make sure the APL is actually doing the right rotations.

    To expound, I get it. Seriously - I get it. There's no such thing as a fight that allows you to stand still and tunnel. Even Fel Lord requires some movement. The sequence is going to go off the rails at some point. There's a huge desire to just say "F it" and admit it's never gonna be perfect anyway, so why not just build a set to plan for that in the first place?

    My feelings on this is that nothing is stopping you from playing this way, with or without the haste build. You can still bank orbs and intentionally use Mind Flay from time to time to bridge gaps and adapt yourself during the fight. The haste build doesn't stop you from doing this.

    However, it does give you the potential to do more damage IF you can do it, so why deny yourself that option?

    In addition to this, in my experience so far, the class trinket is just not always the best option. So unless you are just cherry picking fights where you want to use CoP or AS, there's a lot of fights where traditional CoP still makes some sense to use instead. In this situation, haste is still clearly better.

    My point is - what do you want to do? What's your overall goal. My goal has always been to develop a gearset and a play style that allows me to be flexible and to play CoP on all fights, without needing to build multiple gearsets or switch L100 talents. I'm doing this primarily out of selfishness - I like both the simplicity of it and the challenge. However, I don't think everyone has to adopt this mindset, and so I do think it's perfectly viable to do something else instead, or to use CoP in order to play to your own desires.

    But again, let's seperate those personal desires a little bit from simcraft, and let's make sure that we're getting accurate results.

    When I get some time later today, I will start the process of looking over your gearset and the APL and try to make sure it's behaving properly.
    Last edited by Kilee25; 2015-11-05 at 01:10 PM.
    "Falling from heaven is not as painful as surviving the impact."

    DPS Loss - my guild on Proudmoore
    The Old Guard - my guild on Earthen Ring
    Revenant - my guild on Echo Isles

  7. #47
    Spam Blizzard so we can add 2 sec on the Mental Fatigue Debuff

  8. #48
    Personally, if I were going to spam blizzard with some request for change, and there was even a sliver of a chance they would do something, it would be to request that Mind Spike builds Mental Fatigue in addition to Mind Flay. I don't care about extending the debuff, I just want Mind Flay taken out of the rotation, period.
    "Falling from heaven is not as painful as surviving the impact."

    DPS Loss - my guild on Proudmoore
    The Old Guard - my guild on Earthen Ring
    Revenant - my guild on Echo Isles

  9. #49
    Either of those would be a fantastic change for me. I agree that having a rotation where you are (high haste rotation aside) encouraged to deliberately insert a channelled spell that is cut short after the minimum amount of time is ridiculous and clunky. It's almost like they had no idea of the state of shadow in WoD and were assuming that people were doing the MoP rotation where the debuff would have been naturally refreshed by flays since it was part of the rotation anyway.

  10. #50
    @ Kilee25

    Haste set has 1300, thirteen hundred (one thousand three hundred), haste gem in the shoes, which brings haste up to 2600+. Like you said, SimC is never 100% accurate, but you can get close enough to make a conclusion based on the results, just like what you, I and everyone else that's been using it have been doing. SimC shows a consistent result that shows that the shorter the fight length is, the better it is to go for mastery over haste and that's what I'm saying.

    I'm not here to "justify" what I want to do. Why would I need to justify what I want to do to anyone?
    There's a reason why I prefaced with "food for thought". I want people to actually think about what it actually means to go haste/mastery CoP. The moment you start introducing mind flay back into the rotation, you partially lose the advantage of going haste build to begin with (unless if you are using searing insanity in any part of the fight). As I said before, with ilvl increase patch coming up along with legendary ring upgrade will make every single fight in HFC shorter by a significant amount. Majority of haste value's lost during bloodlust, and it also loses out to mastery during execute phase. With fights becoming shorter, the "downtime" between bloodlust and execute phase is also shortened (this is where haste outshines mastery when played correctly).

  11. #51
    I just noticed.

    I really do think that this is some result of haste meeting some kind of soft-cap in relation to fight length and heroism. I don't think it invalidates the idea that meeting the 2600 mark is the best "generic" build for priests. Rather, I think that it introduces a meta within that says you can do this if X and Y are also true - that being that your raid's dps is so high that every fight essentially gets turned into a trash pack zergfest. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about changing my guide to reflect this - as you said we are entering the twilight phase of the game where everything just gets thrown out the window.

    A few additional thoughts.

    1. I realize this isn't about my guide, and I'm sorry to have mentioned it to so much. I also realize this isn't about preference, but more an attempt to widen the knowledge base about how the class works. I'm sorry if my response offended you or seemed to disrespect that. I really do enjoy learning more about this subset of the class, and I will take the information you've provided to heart. Sometimes I am slow to adapt and change, and that's a shortcoming of myself that is not easy to overcome.

    2. I would like to redo the tests you've done with actual gearsets versus imaginary gems. While I realize that nothing may change, sometimes I find that imaginary sets don't actually exist in game. Even if a trend can be observed, it may be unobtainable.

    3. As always, with everything, theory needs to be put to the test with actual physical evidence and practical experience. We need to see some evidence that this play style works and an be maintained in a real world environment. A lot of things change drastically when you start talking about zerging Mythic fights and practically ignoring fight mechanics. Is it really possible to turn this model into reality on anything other than Fel Lord? That is a question I'm curious to know the asnwer to.

    4. There may be a possibility that the APL just simply isn't robust enough to handle such a short fight length. The APL that I created was never intended to deal with Heroism or execute ranges effectively. It was literally a device built for one purpose only, and that was to show that the DoTLess insanity rotation worked at all. It was never my intention for people to use it as a true benchmark of what the very top end of the spec was capable of. I wanted to get a rough idea of what kind of damage I could expect, and I wanted to get a rough idea of what realistic stat weights might look like. Beyond that, I didn't invest more effort and time into it. When you start talking about using the APL to prove more broad theories, its flaws start to be exposed. It's a simple APL that is not resilient against outside influences. I worry that the results you are seeing may not even be accurate and that you're basically just seeing the result of what happens when you take an APL outside of the scope of what it can handle.

    5. I've tried the "yolo" play style where you maintain the debuff with Mind Flay and bank orbs for other things. The DPS is nothing like what you get from single target. I honestly can't get my DPS much higher than what I can do by not using the class trinket at all. This has made me seriously reconsider using the class trinket outside of any fight where I can't just sit and tunnel into the boss (or at least, mostly do that). This in turn makes me wary to develop a pure mastery set and to abandon haste. I feel that to do this is to open myself up to weakness in other areas. I do not want to specialize my cop experience to such an extreme degree that I give up the ability to do other jobs in the raid, when asked to. This would leave me with the choice of either building two gearsets, or simply sacrificing the top end damage in favor of a more practical "all rounder" set of gear. I'm still torn about this decision, and it's not something I can decide without getting some real life experience in game.

    6. Ideally, I'd like to see some empirical evidence in the form of logs that specializing in mastery and dropping haste far below the 35% mark results in an actual DPS increase. Are there logs that we can look at showing this trend? What types of gear sets are the top parses on Fel Lord using? How many Mind flays are in those logs? I think we need to find some logs where someone is playing like this to see if it's holding up. Surely we can find some similarly short fight lengths to compare with.

    7. I hadn't considered this, but do you think the version of the class trinket has some outside influence on stat weights? Each version increases the benefit of mastery. I wonder if we will get the same results with a heroic version of the trinket instead.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I've been poking around in Ask Mr Robot. (Side note - I really didn't want to spend my entire day looking into this... ug.)

    Is the real problem here that the Mythic "BIS" set can't even achieve 2600 haste? It seems that this might be true... It looks to me like there might be a pretty big conflict of interest with higher iLevel times butting up against lower iLevel items with haste.
    "Falling from heaven is not as painful as surviving the impact."

    DPS Loss - my guild on Proudmoore
    The Old Guard - my guild on Earthen Ring
    Revenant - my guild on Echo Isles

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilee25 View Post

    2. I would like to redo the tests you've done with actual gearsets versus imaginary gems. While I realize that nothing may change, sometimes I find that imaginary sets don't actually exist in game. Even if a trend can be observed, it may be unobtainable.
    Fair enough. The imaginary gems were meant to be a quick and dirty way to test the theory. If you actually want to build an equipment set that can reach 2.6k haste, you'll need many gem sockets or very specific set of equipments. This problem should be somewhat alleviated with the upcoming 10 ilvl buff however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilee25 View Post
    3. As always, with everything, theory needs to be put to the test with actual physical evidence and practical experience. We need to see some evidence that this play style works and an be maintained in a real world environment. A lot of things change drastically when you start talking about zerging Mythic fights and practically ignoring fight mechanics. Is it really possible to turn this model into reality on anything other than Fel Lord? That is a question I'm curious to know the asnwer to.
    Looking at the fastest kills, Iron reaver, Kormrok, Kilrogg, Zakuun, Socrethar are all short enough (less than 3 minutes/180sec). With ilvl upgrade, gorefiend, xhul, iskar and maybe tyrant will join the list. With 9/13 (10 if you play CoP on council), being shorter than 3minutes with at least half being shorter than 2minutes in the future, I think this will be worthwhile looking into.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilee25 View Post
    4. There may be a possibility that the APL just simply isn't robust enough to handle such a short fight length. The APL that I created was never intended to deal with Heroism or execute ranges effectively. It was literally a device built for one purpose only, and that was to show that the DoTLess insanity rotation worked at all. It was never my intention for people to use it as a true benchmark of what the very top end of the spec was capable of. I wanted to get a rough idea of what kind of damage I could expect, and I wanted to get a rough idea of what realistic stat weights might look like. Beyond that, I didn't invest more effort and time into it. When you start talking about using the APL to prove more broad theories, its flaws start to be exposed. It's a simple APL that is not resilient against outside influences. I worry that the results you are seeing may not even be accurate and that you're basically just seeing the result of what happens when you take an APL outside of the scope of what it can handle.
    This could be a factor during bloodlust, but both mastery and haste set would suffer from non-optimized execute rotation since they are using the same APL.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kilee25 View Post
    6. Ideally, I'd like to see some empirical evidence in the form of logs that specializing in mastery and dropping haste far below the 35% mark results in an actual DPS increase. Are there logs that we can look at showing this trend? What types of gear sets are the top parses on Fel Lord using? How many Mind flays are in those logs? I think we need to find some logs where someone is playing like this to see if it's holding up. Surely we can find some similarly short fight lengths to compare with.
    I agree with you about wanting live data. I'll play /w mastery cop a week or two after blizzcon (whenever my guild decides to resume raiding).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilee25 View Post
    7. I hadn't considered this, but do you think the version of the class trinket has some outside influence on stat weights? Each version increases the benefit of mastery. I wonder if we will get the same results with a heroic version of the trinket instead.
    I haven't simmed anything outside of mythic so I'm not sure if we'll be able to see the same trend with heroic equipment set.

  13. #53
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulle View Post
    I agree with you about wanting live data. I'll play /w mastery cop a week or two after blizzcon (whenever my guild decides to resume raiding).
    I've been following this thread loosely and after seeing this I thought you might find my fel lord kill from last week useful:
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...st&spec=Shadow

    The week before, I coined the mastery head from archimonde with a socket and it got me thinking about building a mastery set, I tried it out on fel lord and at the time got rank 2. The dps might be skewed however, owing to the kill timer being perfect, with the 2nd ring proc pretty much killing the boss.

    I had about 102% mastery buffed, and 25.92% haste, at ilvl 731 (unfortunately the rings and neck are enchanted with crit from my AS set ):
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Qwertii/simple

    At the time, rank one was Seriw, who is a friend of our resto druid. Seriw didn't cast any SW: Ds in his execute because he had too much mastery interestingly enough, something which I've never really considered.
    Last edited by mmoc1c79034957; 2015-11-06 at 06:46 AM.

  14. #54
    The concept of having so much mastery that you don't cast sw:d is actually blowing my mind. At what point does that become true?

  15. #55
    At the point when 4 MSp deal more damage than 3 SWD and 1 DP.

    (3 * SWD * CoP + DP) / (4 * MSp * CoP * RoW)
    = (3 * 2.7 * 1.4 + 5.808) / (4 * 1 * 1.4 * RoW)
    =
    720 RoW (1.4925): 2.052 -> 2822 Mastery
    726 RoW (1.5205): 2.014 -> 2689 Mastery
    735 RoW (1.5660): 1.955 -> 2483 Mastery
    741 RoW (1.5985): 1.916 -> 2343 Mastery
    751 RoW (1.6575): 1.847 -> 2103 Mastery

    You still use SWD for movement, sniping ToF or just getting an additional orb when you need it like wanting to use Searing Insanity and still maintain RoW with Insanity or having to switch targets and wanting to start with Insanity on it. Since your basic rotation is orb neutral you can sit on up to two additional orbs forever and use them when necessary.
    Last edited by Seriv; 2015-12-12 at 01:28 AM.
    Seriiw | set sail for fail (Blackrock-EU)

  16. #56
    Looking through all of the top parses, Heroism is hit at the start, and Twist of Fate/Execute range goes up about 50% through the fight. you're only in a "normal" state for about 30 seconds, if even that. That's pretty obviously why haste's value plummets.

    The top parse got some insane luck on DSI procs and weapon procs. Better than average uptime.

    Also yes - I've seen simcraft show damage increases from dropping Death from the rotation.

    Kulle - play around with it an see if there's a soft cap on haste at what would be the "heroism + haste = 50% haste" mark. My bet is that's the magic number.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Edit: Check in SimC When heroism is used too. I think the default is at the end rather than the beginning.
    "Falling from heaven is not as painful as surviving the impact."

    DPS Loss - my guild on Proudmoore
    The Old Guard - my guild on Earthen Ring
    Revenant - my guild on Echo Isles

  17. #57
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Seriv View Post
    At the point when 4 MSp deal more damage than 3 SWD and 1 DP.

    (3 * SWD * CoP + DP) / (4 * MSp * CoP * RoW)
    = (3 * 2.7 * 1.4 + 5.808) / (4 * 1 * 1.4 * RoW)
    =
    720 RoW (1.4925): 2.052 -> 2822 Mastery
    726 RoW (1.5205): 2.014 -> 2689 Mastery
    735 RoW (1.5660): 1.955 -> 2483 Mastery
    741 RoW (1.5985): 1.916 -> 2343 Mastery
    751 RoW (1.6575): 1.847 -> 2103 Mastery

    You still use SWD for movement, sniping ToF or just getting an additional orb when you need it like wanting to use Searing Insanity and still maintain RoW with Insanity or having to switch targets and wanting to start with Insanity on it. Since your basic rotation is orb neutral you can sit on up to two additional orbs forever and use them when necessary.
    Wow this is just fucking retarded, wtb death included to mastery >.<

  18. #58
    Kulle, I figured it out!

    The heroism bit and the execute bits of the fight are circumventing the need to be able to maintain a dotless insanity rotation.

    During heroism, you just need enough haste to maintain a dotless insanity rotation (ergo, you will automatically hit it without any haste whatseover).

    During execute, you will always have Insanity often enough to never cast Mind Flays.

    What you are left with is about 30 seconds of the fight where you have to bridge the gap with normal Mind Flays. It's not enough to matter since the majority of the fight you aren't casting Mind Flays.

    Basically with this understanding, my POV is this doesn't invalidate the 35% haste breakpoint or its significance in progression fights or leading up to BIS, it's just a means to get higher parses on super-farm content, after you are done with the instance. (Which is fine, nothing wrong with it.)
    "Falling from heaven is not as painful as surviving the impact."

    DPS Loss - my guild on Proudmoore
    The Old Guard - my guild on Earthen Ring
    Revenant - my guild on Echo Isles

  19. #59
    I guess the question is how long does the fight need to be for the haste build to still pull ahead. Obviously the perfect 2m18s pulls as you see in the r1 kill and the kill linked above are super farm kills. But when my guild does a 3mXXs kill I suspect that's actually still fairly close to favouring mastery if hero is used on pull? (Although most guilds lust at 30% if they aren't aiming for parses).

  20. #60
    @ kilee
    Yes haste loses much of its value during lust and execute because of that reason while mastery retains its value.

    You really only start seeing mastery >haste in st at 200s and lower with bloodlust being used outside of execute range.

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