Protection legion Discussion

[Zasriel]

Not impressed with those arguments.

First "more buttons to press" is actually just one single button - Focused Rage. You yourself said you dont need as much mitigation there so you dont need to spam IP, and nothing else requires rage (well SB but its only 10). One button wont make gameplay ohsomuchbetter. Especially if its just a slight dmg buff on next ability. In fact testers constantly repeat on beta forum how not fun and not satisflying this ability feels which I completely agree with.

Sounds like every single one of your arguments, so far. I don't think you've said a single thing that someone in this thread has agreed with or said was a good argument.

With that said, the fact that one of our "core" abilities has been repeatedly mentioned as "not fun" and "unsatisfactory" doesn't mean that we should just simply ignore it and be OK with the fact that we can't use it as often with this rage system. Instead, what should be done by Blizz is to either replace it or "fix" it. I know they've at least removed the Devastate portion from it so it's only Shield Slam now, but they could simply give us back Heroic Strike. And, I know you don't raid so none of this really applies to you (hence why no one agrees with what you say or validates any of your arguments) but when I raid, I like to be able to be beneficial to the raid in some way other than just taking hits to the face. For me, tanking is all about optimizing your damage, while also mitigating as much incoming damage as possible.

And with this current play style, with the way that Blizzard has set up our tools in which we tank, it is as everyone else has said, counter intuitive to the point of being counter productive. Where we regress with gear, everyone else is progress with gear. I fear the day that, like I did on Nightbane in TBC, that I have to remove gear just to feel like I can function and tank things.

[Breccia]

I wonder if the increased rotational rage you get from haste will be enough to offset the loss or rage from damage taken.

In this expansion, it probably would not have.

It might not be a 100% perfect comparison, but I used some numbers mentioned earlier and Asked Mr Robot to fill in the blanks.
a) a 6.0 N-mode tank going for a "Haste beats EVERYTHING" build would have about 3500 Haste and 446k max health.
b) a 6.2 H-mode tank doing the same thing would have about 5,100 Haste and 480k max health.
c) N Archimonde hits for about 120k on an H-mode tank with an unblocked hit.

Increasing Haste as shown would cut the CD of Shield Slam from 6.5 seconds to 5.75 seconds (rounded), which in turn, would cause 2 extra Shield Slams every 100 seconds. Which in turn is +30 Rage per 100 seconds, or +0.3 Rage per second.

Increasing max health from 446k to 480k would cause the same amount of damage to cause 8% less Rage.

If +0.3 Rage per second covers the loss of 8% Rage from damage taken, you must be getting 3.75 Rage per second, which in turn, is 11.25% of your max health per 1.5 second swing timer. Anything more than this, and the extra Rage from Haste does not cover that lost from damage taken.

N Archimonde hits for about DOUBLE that.

Now, the obvious question is "wait, won't you Parry and/or Block enough hits to reduce the incoming damage by half, making it about the same?" Well in some ways, yes. But:
a) He's also throwing magic damage. Whether you Ignore Pain on it or not, that Normal Death Brand does 300k instantly and 65k per second. For the H-mode tank, that's 13.5% max health per second, which is also about double the Rage gained from more Haste, and it grows from there. That, in and of itself, beats the Haste gap and you have no way to block or parry that.
b) I used earlier figures from NORMAL Archimonde. What's the H tank doing in there? Heroic bosses hit a lot harder. Between wowhead and random logs I browsed, H Archi does about +40% more damage to the same number of people with his melee and specials as you go from N to H. Meaning, now he hits for about 160k on plate and Death Brand does 90k per second, and increasing in damage from there. Whether he's being meleed or Death Branded, he's still taking way a significantly higher percentage of his max health in damage, and losing some due to his increased health. It's a net loss.

Also, the "Haste beats EVERYTHING!" build had epic Haste gems in every socket. Assuming a more "realistic" +900 increase in Haste, Shield Slam's CD is a perfect 6 seconds, the Rage gain drops to 0.2 Rage per second, and you would only close the gap caused by the health increase if you were getting 2.5 Rage per second from damage, aka 7.5% of your max health per swing timer. This is significantly less than N Archimonde is doing.

Would Haste have softened the blow of losing Rage due to max health? Yes. Would we have lost Rage anyhow? Yes. The fact that we lose more Rage gained due to damage taken than we gain back even in an unrealistic "Haste beats EVERYTHING!" build, giving Haste the maximum possible credit, points out the glaring flaw in the system.

[mindw0rk]

Sounds like every single one of your arguments, so far. I don't think you've said a single thing that someone in this thread has agreed with or said was a good argument.
With that said, the fact that one of our "core" abilities has been repeatedly mentioned as "not fun" and "unsatisfactory" doesn't mean that we should just simply ignore it and be OK with the fact that we can't use it as often with this rage system. Instead, what should be done by Blizz is to either replace it or "fix" it. I know they've at least removed the Devastate portion from it so it's only Shield Slam now, but they could simply give us back Heroic Strike. And, I know you don't raid so none of this really applies to you (hence why no one agrees with what you say or validates any of your arguments) but when I raid, I like to be able to be beneficial to the raid in some way other than just taking hits to the face. For me, tanking is all about optimizing your damage, while also mitigating as much incoming damage as possible.
And with this current play style, with the way that Blizzard has set up our tools in which we tank, it is as everyone else has said, counter intuitive to the point of being counter productive. Where we regress with gear, everyone else is progress with gear. I fear the day that, like I did on Nightbane in TBC, that I have to remove gear just to feel like I can function and tank things.

Looks like you're out of arguments for what I wrote and pulling "noone agrees with you" card which looks even less impressive then your first argument.
If you understand raids even slightly you should know that in Legion you will spend rage on IPs instead of wasting it on buff that deals 20 times less dmg then 1 global of arcane mage.

"We dont improve with gear" argument is so false and silly that I have no clue why plenty of people keep repeating it. The ONLY thing that doesnt improve is rage gain which is fine as is and with set bonuses and high mastery will become over the top.

[Warriorsarri]

They are repeating it 'cause it's true, as simple as that. More gear equates to higher avoidance, which means less rage. Sure, we'll take less damage overall, but we are more prone of "bad luck streaks", in which we avoid a lot of swings leading up to an important ability which requires Active Mitigation to be up. One can, and should be banking rage for just such a scenario, but it still means that due to bad design we need to keep in mind that any given second we may just run dry of rage, and not being able to do anything about it.

[Cylunaria]

Looks like you're out of arguments for what I wrote and pulling "noone agrees with you" card which looks even less impressive then your first argument.
If you understand raids even slightly you should know that in Legion you will spend rage on IPs instead of wasting it on buff that deals 20 times less dmg then 1 global of arcane mage.

"We dont improve with gear" argument is so false and silly that I have no clue why plenty of people keep repeating it. The ONLY thing that doesnt improve is rage gain which is fine as is and with set bonuses and high mastery will become over the top.

It's "fine as is" because we aren't in fucking raid gear for testing. SET BONUSES ABSOLUTELY SHOULD NOT BE FIXING A BROKEN PART OF THE CLASS. Set bonuses should be a BONUS not a FIX. I'm fine if rage gain doesn't improve, that's ok. What I am not fine with is rage gain actively getting WORSE.

[mindw0rk]

They are repeating it 'cause it's true, as simple as that. More gear equates to higher avoidance, which means less rage. Sure, we'll take less damage overall, but we are more prone of "bad luck streaks", in which we avoid a lot of swings leading up to an important ability which requires Active Mitigation to be up. One can, and should be banking rage for just such a scenario, but it still means that due to bad design we need to keep in mind that any given second we may just run dry of rage, and not being able to do anything about it.

This argument would be valid if we only had passive rage gain. Every time you dodge/parry you accumulate rage by using active abilities. Every time you dodge/parry absorb from previous IP stays longer.

[Beardyface]

Hi guys.

It's my birthday today. Really. I don't usually ask for much, but I'd like to ask for one thing this year:

Please stop replying to mindw0rk. He's been trolling this thread for months now. If everyone puts him on ignore, you won't have to constantly correct him.

You can do so by clicking his username and then clicking on ignore on the left.

Together, we can get this thread back on track.

Thank you,

Beardy

[mindw0rk]

Hi guys.
It's my birthday today. Really. I don't usually ask for much, but I'd like to ask for one thing this year:
Please stop replying to mindw0rk. He's been trolling this thread for months now. If everyone puts him on ignore, you won't have to constantly correct him.
You can do so by clicking his username and then clicking on ignore on the left.
Together, we can get this thread back on track.

I dont know what was more pathetic in this post - begging others to ignore someone you dont like or using a birthday excuse to force others do what you want.

[Zasriel]

I dont know what was more pathetic in this post - begging others to ignore someone you dont like or using a birthday excuse to force others do what you want.

It worked for me.

[mindw0rk]

It worked for me.

Nope. You still answering to me

[Breccia]

Looks like you're out of arguments for what I wrote and pulling "noone agrees with you" card which looks even less impressive then your first argument.

Nobody agrees with you because you're provably wrong. You've continued to say things like "oh you're just being scratched" which ignores two major points:
a) we scale in reverse. It's not about being scratched. It's about us provably getting worse through the expansion, a feature exclusive to Warriors.
b) we earn resources by being hit earlier, to use later. Changes in being hit, such as being the offtank, therefore affect our resources in ways we can't control. This is also a feature exclusive to Warriors.

The fact that you have replied to multiple posts pointing both of these out, and still don't seem to get it, has got to be intentional by your part. Nobody agrees with you because you're choosing not to see the problem.

[Murlocbait]

Hi guys.

It's my birthday today. Really. I don't usually ask for much, but I'd like to ask for one thing this year:

Please stop replying to mindw0rk. He's been trolling this thread for months now. If everyone puts him on ignore, you won't have to constantly correct him.

You can do so by clicking his username and then clicking on ignore on the left.

Together, we can get this thread back on track.

Thank you,

Beardy

It's not my birthday, but I would like to second this and also ask that people stop quoting him. Putting someone on ignore doesn't work very well when every other post is just a quote of the trolling you're trying to avoid in the first freakin' place.

[Deleted]

Not impressed with those arguments.

First "more buttons to press" is actually just one single button - Focused Rage. You yourself said you dont need as much mitigation there so you dont need to spam IP, and nothing else requires rage (well SB but its only 10). One button wont make gameplay ohsomuchbetter. Especially if its just a slight dmg buff on next ability. In fact testers constantly repeat on beta forum how not fun and not satisflying this ability feels which I completely agree with.

Second how exactly 100AP single target dmg buff is even relevant in dungeon that you outgear? You will pull several packs and spam revenge/thunderclap/heroicleap/nelthfury to hit 20 mobs at once, not focus on just one target.



If you dont get rage from hits, this means hits are so low that barely scratch your health and you dont really need alot of mitigation against them. You still can get rage from active ablities for IP and this IP will last much longer due to low enemies dmg.

i meant press buttons less frequently. but no doubt you could figure that out for yourself.

this is the last response you get from me,

[mindw0rk]

Nobody agrees with you because you're provably wrong. You've continued to say things like "oh you're just being scratched" which ignores two major points:
a) we scale in reverse. It's not about being scratched. It's about us provably getting worse through the expansion, a feature exclusive to Warriors.
b) we earn resources by being hit earlier, to use later. Changes in being hit, such as being the offtank, therefore affect our resources in ways we can't control. This is also a feature exclusive to Warriors.
The fact that you have replied to multiple posts pointing both of these out, and still don't seem to get it, has got to be intentional by your part. Nobody agrees with you because you're choosing not to see the problem.

Well noone of you so far proved that Im wrong. All I see is that you created artificial problems (like we dont get stronger with gear) out of pure fact that you dont like new rage gain formula. Which imo works fine and makes warrior unique in this regard (compared to WoD where rage gain hardly differs from energy or focus). You demanding parry and dodges to grant rage but it wont happen since this will screw up whole "rage gained by hits" formula.

Explain me how in a million years offtanking is an issue? If you are hit hard enough for add to be threatening you gain passive rage for regular IPs. If they dont hit you hard enough, healers easily heal through weak damage.

[Deleted]

Do warriors still generate rage by taking damage rather than actively or was that fixed?

[Murlocbait]

Do warriors still generate rage by taking damage rather than actively or was that fixed?

I believe, from what I've seen, that it's both. A couple abilities on CDs generate rage, and you get rage from damage taken. The devs seem to like that backwards, idiotic design, so don't expect it to change.

[Valech]

Look guys. if you constantly quote mindwork, ignoring him serves no purpose.

[mindw0rk]

He disagrees with us. Lets ignore him!
Yeah, lets ignore him!
Ah damn, I quoted him.
Yeah, you shouldnt quote him, we see it.
Guys _stop_ quoting him!! We ignore him, remember?
And tell others to ignore him!
He types something. Brb gonna check.
STOP answering to him!!


I came just to discuss prot warrior stuff, but you guys turned it into awesome comedy show

[Ashenia]

New build is coming so I hope you guys are ready with repaste button for our issues, as Im still way wont be able to help out. Right now imo prio rage due to gearing issues, which isnt something I enjoy gearing up. With the second being issues with IP might not scaling right. If we push the issues right, civil way we might get an answer.

A new version of FR, rage and IP formula will be implemented today.. ^O^

[Breccia]

Brewmasters got lucky. Many of their most glaring issues were addressed by adjusting their mechanics, rather than replacing them. No matter how simple it is to say "remove Rage from damage taken, as it is in Live" I don't think they're interested in changing something as basic as our resource generation, even if every intelligent warrior on the forum despises it. And I honestly don't think it's the effort that would be required. I just don't see them backing down from this decision.

Maybe if Celestalon were to say "hey, Rage from damage taken is great, you're just too noob to use it" we'd know there'd be a change within 24 hours.