Arms Legion Discussion

[Warriorsarri]

Second Wind is OP, that's the main reason why I don't complain about it.

[Kirbydude65]

My statement from earlier still stands for the PVPers. If your qualm is that you feel defensive stance is necessary to PVP, and that you must sit inside it of it 90% of time, shouldn't you argue for higher baseline defensive stats, as opposed to asking for QoL changes to a mechanic that's a literal crutch for your character?

[Caargon]

We could do away with a lot of abilities and replace them with passive effects to get a similar net result. Not particularly interesting though. My bigger beef is that the rest of that tier is not especially compelling. Second wind is only good in a raid scenario with consistent damage intervals where your healers are actively not topping you up. Bounding stride isn't awful but it is dull and not that strong.

[Syegfryed]

Second Wind is OP, that's the main reason why I don't complain about it.

can you elaborate a bit

Second wind is only good in a raid scenario with consistent damage intervals where your healers are actively not topping you up. Bounding stride isn't awful but it is dull and not that strong.

but damn dude, is 5 seconds, what the hell are healers are doing, , like i will spare 10 gold on food, to recover hp less faster, jesus, i only seeing usable (read to use, not good to use) on leveling, or i dont know, solo old raid?

i fear they could nerf defense stance to make this shit more picked

[Drahkais]

I've not really kept up with Arms in the Beta. How is it performing against Fury in PvE currently?

[Deleted]

Tactical Advance feels like real bad, especially for having to spend 3 points. Would be nice to see that changed. Touch of Zakajz should be brought back up a bit, 50% feels excessive though.

Something Bajheera tweeted that would make me leap with joy and happiness was Victory Rush would also charge to your target. BLIZZARD PLEASE.

Haha, yes, it makes sense rushing to your next target when using Victory Rush!
A simple and efficient fix to Tactical Advance - the buff should activate after using Charge. It is a decent buff and it fits the Arms fantasy which is also focused on charging rather than leaping.

I'd like to see Touch brought back up to at least 5/10/15, I think that's pretty reasonable. D-stance I definitely like the change a lot for PvP combined with DBTS baseline. Less thrilled from a PvE standpoint due to the super long lockout, but o well.

Focused Rage seems like the only talent worth taking in PvP on that tier.

I dunno about the Mortal Combo bit. While I agree Bladestorm will be nerfed, I don't think it needs to be nerfed too much and it's still a CC immunity.

Good suggestion about Touch, seems pretty reasonable. Also completely agree about Focused Rage and Bladestorm.

FR is powerful and fits Arms fantasy but some exciting competition would be welcome. Titanic Might could go, it's absolute garbage in PvP. Also in PvE how much damage % loss is one willing to pay for less CS RNG stress and does it make sense to be in such a high tier?
It doesn't seem that Mortal Combo is something spectacular in PvP - Shattered Defenses and Precise Strikes only affects the first MS inside CS - and Bladestorm CC immunity is almost priceless. One may think of a super cool style such as maintaining the MS debuff on 2 targets simultaneously but its efficiency is highly questionable.

My statement from earlier still stands for the PVPers. If your qualm is that you feel defensive stance is necessary to PVP, and that you must sit inside it of it 90% of time, shouldn't you argue for higher baseline defensive stats, as opposed to asking for QoL changes to a mechanic that's a literal crutch for your character?

Defensive Stance is not a crutch as in the lame sense (correct me if I misunderstood the phrase, not a native English speaker here). It promotes stance dancing and entertaining game play if you want to maximize performance. To say that one would sit inside it 90% is rather extreme. You know that anytime you have CS ready there is a decision whether to nuke in Battle or stay in Defensive - maybe to pool a bit more rage maybe because -20% damage taken is more important than +10% done at this particular moment. And CS nuke is going to happen fairly often with Warbreaker and Shadow of Colossus.
Bounding Stride over Defensive Stance might be viable if you are running with 2+ healers or some solid support in general. Definitely not for solo gaming but it is still an option. More mobility is always good.
Anyway, whether it is a crutch or not, I am happy that we got something in the last build. Seems good and I am looking forward to playing Arms

[Caargon]

Maintaining multiple MS debuffs is easily accomplished by wrecking crew in the pvp tree. Mortal combos pvp application is as a burst ability inside CS, and bladestorm fills that role better along with making you unpeelable. Better minds have already pointed out its damage likely needs to come down, but combo has other problems anyway.

[Warriorsarri]

can you elaborate a bit

On about half the fights we've raid tested this far, I've been topping the healing meters (not counting healers/tanks) by a fair margin, only having Shadow Priest coming close to me. It will obviously be really bad on fights where the dangerous damage comes in intervals shorter than 5 seconds, or if said damage is lethal in its own right, but for the most part the damage this tier seems to be either a single big burst hit, which we can fully negate, or avoidable abilities, which will lead good players to get a lot out of SW if they'd want to.

Second Winds viability will depend a lot on how the fight looks. If it's a fight in which the damage intake doesn't fit its 5 second interval, it will be a real bad choice, but if you can make use of the heal you can quite easily manage fully without having any healing on you.

[Deleted]

On about half the fights we've raid tested this far, I've been topping the healing meters (not counting healers/tanks) by a fair margin, only having Shadow Priest coming close to me. It will obviously be really bad on fights where the dangerous damage comes in intervals shorter than 5 seconds, or if said damage is lethal in its own right, but for the most part the damage this tier seems to be either a single big burst hit, which we can fully negate, or avoidable abilities, which will lead good players to get a lot out of SW if they'd want to.

Second Winds viability will depend a lot on how the fight looks. If it's a fight in which the damage intake doesn't fit its 5 second interval, it will be a real bad choice, but if you can make use of the heal you can quite easily manage fully without having any healing on you.

Sounds good but do you tell the healers not to "waste" any healing on you beforehand? Of course, SW is useful to alleviate some pressure off them. Human factor seems to be the biggest issue here as they are keen on topping healing meters, I can imagine some of them throwing an instant on you randomly
Is SW stays as it is what is the most efficient way (synchronization between you and the healbots) to get the maximum of it for the raid?

[Syegfryed]

On about half the fights we've raid tested this far, I've been topping the healing meters (not counting healers/tanks) by a fair margin, only having Shadow Priest coming close to me. It will obviously be really bad on fights where the dangerous damage comes in intervals shorter than 5 seconds, or if said damage is lethal in its own right, but for the most part the damage this tier seems to be either a single big burst hit, which we can fully negate, or avoidable abilities, which will lead good players to get a lot out of SW if they'd want to.

Second Winds viability will depend a lot on how the fight looks. If it's a fight in which the damage intake doesn't fit its 5 second interval, it will be a real bad choice, but if you can make use of the heal you can quite easily manage fully without having any healing on you.

so, the talent is only good on specific fights on specific raids, still worse than the others 2 talents and can be replaced with food at all

[Murlocbait]

so, the talent is only good on specific fights on specific raids

Yeah but that's not exactly unusual.

[Qoma]

and can be replaced with food at all

How often do you eat during a fight?

[Deleted]

How often do you eat during a fight?

Sorry, can't resist

Let's see. Hypothetically said we got a standard evening raid of 3 hours where we wait 30 min for the MT to take a quick shit in the WC since he was stuck in road traffic on his way back from work. Assuming that a normalized wipe takes about 2 min + 10 min for the raid leader to do the mothers and grandmothers of the sinners + another 10 min for the OT to take a smoke or walk the dog or to push the cat away from his balls... on average 6.818... times per raid for sure SW is going to be useful - who would pay for food if there is a talented free lunch

On a serious note it is good that Warriorsarri says it fits certain encounters very well, it would have been sad if it was "questing only" talent.

[Qoma]

Sorry, can't resist

Let's see. Hypothetically said we got a standard evening raid of 3 hours where we wait 30 min for the MT to take a quick shit in the WC since he was stuck in road traffic on his way back from work. Assuming that a normalized wipe takes about 2 min + 10 min for the raid leader to do the mothers and grandmothers on the sinners + another 10 min for the OT to take a smoke or walk the dog or to push the cat away from his balls... on average 6.818... times per raid for sure SW is going to be useful to Syegfryed

On a serious note it is good that Warriorsarri says it fits certain encounters very well, it would have been sad if it was "questing only" talent.

That's not the point :P During a fight. Never, is the answer. You can't eat during a fight.

SW can't "be replaced with food" in any significant sense because the talent works in combat. Who cares about eating between pulls, honestly?

[Murlocbait]

SW can't "be replaced with food" in any significant sense because the talent works in combat. Who cares about eating between pulls, honestly?

Except for, in theory, pvp where you might be able to fall out of combat and get a few food ticks in before someone attacks you again. But that's not the purpose of the argument presented above (just wanted to mention it before someone else comes in all "BUT PVPS!!!"). Either way - even in pvp it would be easier to simply not take damage and have SW kick in than to get out of combat and start eating, which requires becoming stationary, while SW does not.

[Artunias]

I feel like Second Wind can only be taken advantage of by coordinated and high level play in a raid setting. Otherwise people either A) will get hit by shit B) the healers will heal them anyway.

I'd still really like for it to have an in combat effect, but I doubt that will happen. My other complaint is at the Mythic level sure if you survive the burst damage it might save your healers some mana. But most of the mechanics rely on you to either use cooldowns or get healed during the mechanic, not just simply get healed up afterward. Because if you get nothing, you'll be dead, and currently Second Wind would give you nothing.

Blackhand demolitions - Not enough time between damage
Tyrant Edicts - not enough time between damage
Archimonde Infernals - not enough time
Archimonde Chaos - maybe 1 tick? Not enough healing to not be healed. Or if you're the shackle target you're totally screwed.
Mannoroth Shadowforce - not enough time
Gorefiend feast - constant damage
Iron Reaver Pound - constant damage

Lethal Mythic mechanics aren't designed around 8-12 second downtimes for Second Wind to be useful. Those are all WoD examples I realize, and I never am around to test any of the Legion stuff. But still, I don't think we're going to see some massive design shift in lethal mythic mechanics.

[Caargon]

Except for, in theory, pvp where you might be able to fall out of combat and get a few food ticks in before someone attacks you again. But that's not the purpose of the argument presented above (just wanted to mention it before someone else comes in all "BUT PVPS!!!"). Either way - even in pvp it would be easier to simply not take damage and have SW kick in than to get out of combat and start eating, which requires becoming stationary, while SW does not.

In theory. Actual practice is that as a melee class you're not going to see that scenario come up for you often, and actually creating a situation where you're not taking any damage while the other team would rather you did, just doesn't happen. Not for 5-10 seconds at a time, in any case.

[Murlocbait]

In theory. Actual practice is that as a melee class you're not going to see that scenario come up for you often, and actually creating a situation where you're not taking any damage while the other team would rather you did, just doesn't happen. Not for 5-10 seconds at a time, in any case.

Right, and on a tier with the new DStance - i doubt it will be the go-to choice in pvp.

[Archimtiros]

Something Bajheera tweeted that would make me leap with joy and happiness was Victory Rush would also charge to your target. BLIZZARD PLEASE.

Lol, I've had those macro'd for years.

Not sure that change is really necessary though. Might as well just reduce the CD on Charge, or as I've been asking for some time now, allow it to reset on kill.

[Artunias]

Lol, I've had those macro'd for years.

Not sure that change is really necessary though. Might as well just reduce the CD on Charge, or as I've been asking for some time now, allow it to reset on kill.

It would let them separate the actual charge and any mechanics tied to it from the Victory Rush charge (range, pvp talents, etc). They've never commented on it ever as far as I know, so I'm not sure what aspect they are so against.