1. #9481
    Quote Originally Posted by Beckster View Post
    Thanks for sharing. If you would have logged with "advanced combat logging" enabled, my question wouldn't be necessary;

    What exactly was the action priority you followed? Somehow I can reproduce your figures by manually changing the simulationcraft APL for 7.2.5.
    Specificially interested in FR Rage minimum and suchlike.
    Aye I didn't turn it on, but remembering to activate that when you're in a rush and on a new install, the last time I had to activate that was years ago on live. But yeah I don't normally log on PTR because I don't need to, I do the testing for myself and not for others and the damage meters (skada/details) provides everything I need to know. As for rotation, it wasn't very optimised to begin with, not much thought put into it and also a lot of ability lag on PTR with my current connection especially meaning the execution in the parse is not very tight. I really urge people to go see for themselves, while there will be plenty of information out soon from the results of others testing, things become very clear when you just get on there and start giving things a try.

    But anyway this was my approach. apply CS debuff > Ravager down (it has a longer duration than Battle Cry) > BC + MS / Exe ring proc (Exe priority) > DOS cast. Outside of burst windows maintain the standard rotation, that is no FR use outside of Shattered Defense and only 1x FR used outside of burst windows, with a standard 3 stack prepared just prior to BC (this bit I'm actually unsure of now, with Titanic Might talented).

    Ravager casts of MS do consume Focused Rage and Executioners Precision, so I haven't figured out the best approach to maximising the burst window in regards to FR and Ravager/BC yet. If you drop Ravager prior to Battle Cry then it could consume the 3x FR stacks before Battle Cry is up and also before you cast your standard MS as the first GCD of the BC window, I've not had time to see when the 4x MS casts are firing off during the Ravager duration to see how this interaction works. While running Titanic Might rage management during BC is an issue, if running Deadly Calm it's business as usual.

    I've not been on the PTR since and I might not get back on there for some time. It's a bit crazy that I still maintain this interest in the game when I've been out of it for months, and I don't even have a working stable internet connection, like living in the stone age here fuck it all.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2017-05-18 at 02:50 PM.
    I7 2600k @4.5ghz : 16GB DDR3 : GTX670 : Firestudio : Naga : G27

  2. #9482
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    For you lazy bastards who can't download a PTR client, I went on there today for 5mins and logged some combat for you. No buffs/consumables, no execute phase, 46 traits with ilvl905 equipped, T20x4 with MS Gloves + Execute ring and using DOS + COF trinkets.
    I think COF makes big difference here, because you were able to line up ravager + BC everytime with almost no delay. Thanks for providing logs by the way. Also, on average you used CS every 5,3 seconds which is more than on people do on live with top logs so your log is pretty pro RNG, again not taking anything away from you but just pointing that out. But you did not use avatar on CD, but that probably is because BC did not line up properly.

    I went to PTR myself and I either had to: delay ravager or delay BC and because then DOS usage was really awkward. My best try with TM + Ravager was ~770k @ 906 ilvl with no execute. With this spec I only used ravager with BC. Which made t20 2pc worthless.

    Regular live spec was also really awkward to play on PTR because if I did not get CS procs I became rage starved, and then everything synced like shit. Cof will help with this tho. On 6 minutes TM+Rava pull I used more CS's than I did on 8 minute pull with regular live spec. RNG reliance is really big with current live spec atleast.

    Pull 2 with live spec I used CS 29 times, which is 1 CS every 7,3 seconds which is shit RNG but cs was always up when I used CD's. DPS at 3min 33 seconds with skada was 733k.

    edit: mention about ravager usage with BC. Most probably mine usage was not optimal.

    edit2: the ravager spec was nice to play atleast
    Last edited by Yiris; 2017-05-18 at 10:05 PM.

  3. #9483
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    well defo bigbazz build do way higher damage than the standrad build, its because the opener is super insane, i mean i managed to burst 2m, then fall to managed to sustan 830k, which falls to 760k then back up to 900k with each burst.

    probably blizzard is going to hit our burst potentional with a nerf, but this build is soooooooooooo "built" around certain items, which is super bad design.

    i mean you need CoF + DoS to do it probably, luckly i have 890 cof parked and 915 dos, but rip those who dont have any, or weak ones.

    gotta have to wait for warriorsarri and archi stuff, since they locked their shit for obvoius reasons.

  4. #9484
    Quote Originally Posted by Yiris View Post
    I think COF makes big difference here, because you were able to line up ravager + BC everytime with almost no delay. Thanks for providing logs by the way. Also, on average you used CS every 5,3 seconds which is more than on people do on live with top logs so your log is pretty pro RNG, again not taking anything away from you but just pointing that out. But you did not use avatar on CD, but that probably is because BC did not line up properly.

    I went to PTR myself and I either had to: delay ravager or delay BC and because then DOS usage was really awkward. My best try with TM + Ravager was ~770k @ 906 ilvl with no execute. With this spec I only used ravager with BC. Which made t20 2pc worthless.

    Regular live spec was also really awkward to play on PTR because if I did not get CS procs I became rage starved, and then everything synced like shit. Cof will help with this tho. On 6 minutes TM+Rava pull I used more CS's than I did on 8 minute pull with regular live spec. RNG reliance is really big with current live spec atleast.

    Pull 2 with live spec I used CS 29 times, which is 1 CS every 7,3 seconds which is shit RNG but cs was always up when I used CD's. DPS at 3min 33 seconds with skada was 733k.

    edit: mention about ravager usage with BC. Most probably mine usage was not optimal.

    edit2: the ravager spec was nice to play atleast
    RNG always plays a role that's the issue and why we need to sim these and see mass parsing before anything can be taken as concrete. I will say though that I did have some droughts of RNG during that run that saw the DPS dip. When I first posted about It I had a run of multiple attempts doing higher dps than the log, due to better RNG and also better latency situation, less delay on abilities meaning I was just getting better execution.

    It's probably worth it to pre cast Avatar once you have the timing right so that it's still entirely covering the BC phase but also minimising the overall delay in use, in some situations there could be benefit to that but in others not, will depend on boss timings etc. It's in no way an optimised gameplay, just proof of concept of that build I was talking about, which may still not be the best setup. I'm still not 100% sure about DOS with the gear setup vs the new trinkets, but for sure COF seems like a necessity.

    With good RNG Deadly Calm will be stronger, and with an execute phase included Deadly Calm instantly gains value compared to static dummy testing, but for sure Titanic Might seems very usable and I think it will be a go too choice for many situations.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2017-05-18 at 10:54 PM.
    I7 2600k @4.5ghz : 16GB DDR3 : GTX670 : Firestudio : Naga : G27

  5. #9485
    basically what bigbazz does is the aluriel mythic arms build. 1 minute timer big ae. I couldnt make it work with cof, because cooldowns never line up if u fiddle bc. Thats why most people use meteorit whetstone as 2nd trinket (for even more ae dmg) for single target, i would recommand an arcano or statstick if u are unlucky like me.

    And yep, u have to precast avatar if u want your second ravager go all out. (check aluriel mythic logs, some are doing it (me for example, but jesus our guilds pull timers on alurial are so random ). Basically its 1 3 5 (and all other evens) window with avatar at pull, and you can make this precast 1 into 2 into 4 and so on. Dos is used as avatar bc ravager are up.

  6. #9486
    Quote Originally Posted by Holofernes View Post
    basically what bigbazz does is the aluriel mythic arms build. 1 minute timer big ae. I couldnt make it work with cof, because cooldowns never line up if u fiddle bc. Thats why most people use meteorit whetstone as 2nd trinket (for even more ae dmg) for single target, i would recommand an arcano or statstick if u are unlucky like me.

    And yep, u have to precast avatar if u want your second ravager go all out. (check aluriel mythic logs, some are doing it (me for example, but jesus our guilds pull timers on alurial are so random ). Basically its 1 3 5 (and all other evens) window with avatar at pull, and you can make this precast 1 into 2 into 4 and so on. Dos is used as avatar bc ravager are up.
    It works well on PTR though (which is what we're discussing if it's not clear) since the T20 reduces the cooldown on Ravager when CS is cast. That means combined with COF it lines up really well with Battle Cry, almost 1/1 ratio most of the time. If you don't have COF with Ravager using T20 your Ravager cooldown is always going to be roughly 10-15 seconds ahead of Battle Cry, depending on tactition procs.
    I7 2600k @4.5ghz : 16GB DDR3 : GTX670 : Firestudio : Naga : G27

  7. #9487
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    It works well on PTR though (which is what we're discussing if it's not clear) since the T20 reduces the cooldown on Ravager when CS is cast. That means combined with COF it lines up really well with Battle Cry, almost 1/1 ratio most of the time. If you don't have COF with Ravager using T20 your Ravager cooldown is always going to be roughly 10-15 seconds ahead of Battle Cry, depending on tactition procs.
    Bladestorm and BC also almost lined up (without CoF) in my tests. Either with AM or OpS picked they still line up. The difference is AM reduces cooldown of the combo by nearly 15 seconds.

    I guess the choice between AM and Ravager will depend on wheter or not the extra damage you deal during Ravager is higher than a ToS trinket can do.

  8. #9488
    im interested in how this synergy trinket with fire dmg will work out. if 15 people are wearing it, would it be strong enough to beat other combos? This way of balancing trinkets would also allow them to make all trinkets work again in pvp by making pve bis trinkets work only with this kind of synergy, because pvp wihtout trinkets sucks, and with imba oneshot trinkets its not fun at all.

  9. #9489
    Fairly safe to say at this point that all of that discussion is now meaningless. Not surprised about them nerfing DOS even though they literally said it wasnt going to be nerfed when asked, know them too well at this point. Surprised at all the big changes for Arms though, quite late in the PTR too.
    I7 2600k @4.5ghz : 16GB DDR3 : GTX670 : Firestudio : Naga : G27

  10. #9490
    Quote Originally Posted by LazyCoding View Post
    Either with AM or OpS picked they still line up. The difference is AM reduces cooldown of the combo by nearly 15 seconds.
    Interesting, when I took Anger Management Battle Cry, was almost always 7-8 Seconds ahead of Bladestorm's Cooldown. It's quite prone to RNG. That being said with Opportunity Strikes, Bladestorm almost always lined up with in 2-3 seconds of each other. I'll need to test this a bit more. (Both are without Convergence of Fates).

    The big thing I noticed though was In for the Kill. Taking this talent actually allowed me to get the whole duration of Bladestorm inside of a Battle Cry window with minimal haste (10% or around 3.5k Hatse). Without it the last portion of Bladestorm misses out on Battle Cry's critical strike, as well as the bonus damage from Touch of Zakajz.

    The DPS Ring also now is something worth considering. With both in toe, you could take Focused Rage, and continue the kind of DPS priority we've been doing since the beginning of this expansion.
    Curoar, Arms Warrior Expert and decipher of Blizzards Crazy Design Choices

  11. #9491
    So far I'm really sad about the changes to Arms on the PTR. Focused Rage is basically not viable anymore, and instead we go back to a slower build, with arguably less thinking involved. I really liked the FR gameplay, enough to stick with it even when Fury was objectively the better spec for progress. The issue was really how random the tactician procs were and how you'd get screwed without these procs. If the changelog for 7.2.5 was "decrease CD on CS, increase % on EtW" I'd have been the happiest warrior in the world.

    Because really, the FR + DC + AM build required you: 1. to be strategic about FR usage to well manage rage + fish for procs + decrease BC CD, especially on fights that make you use sweeping strikes (eli, guldan); 2. to know the encounter really well in order to properly delay BC windows (for which you also need to take into consideration variance due to AM); 3. to perfect placement (and also some encounter timing knowledge) for DoS usage.

    I don't see any other combination of our talents giving us the same amount of thinking at each GCD. But maybe I'm just change adverse and I don't see the subtleties in the other talents

  12. #9492
    So far I'm really sad about the changes to Arms on the PTR. Focused Rage is basically not viable anymore, and instead we go back to a slower build, with arguably less thinking involved. I really liked the FR gameplay, enough to stick with it even when Fury was objectively the better spec for progress. The issue was really how random the tactician procs were and how you'd get screwed without these procs. If the changelog for 7.2.5 was "decrease CD on CS, increase % on EtW" I'd have been the happiest warrior in the world.

    Because really, the FR + DC + AM build required you: 1. to be strategic about FR usage to well manage rage + fish for procs + decrease BC CD, especially on fights that make you use sweeping strikes (eli, guldan); 2. to know the encounter really well in order to properly delay BC windows (for which you also need to take into consideration variance due to AM); 3. to perfect placement relative to adds (and also some encounter timing knowledge) for DoS usage; 4. to perfect placement relative to the boss for parries (it's one thing to get a 2M damage MS parried by a boss, but it's way worse to have your tactician proc be "wasted" on a CS that gets parried and doesn't apply the debuf -- that's still partially true, but CS is made less important with the changes).

    I don't see any other combination of our talents giving us the same amount of thinking at each GCD. But maybe I'm just change adverse and I don't see the subtleties in the other talents

  13. #9493
    I am sure focus rage is still viable if you get the new legendary ring that lets you pick it and deadly calm.

  14. #9494
    Making the build dependent on a legendary really sucks though. Since Ayala has amazing synergy with the Arms golden trait, it's pretty much BiS except in the most add heavy fights. Not having the option to use gloves to help with rage starvation (on Sweeping Strikes fights), or Kil'Jaeden for add fights, or even Prydaz during progress will really decrease the versatility of the FR build. And that's assuming it is indeed still viable.

  15. #9495
    Ehh just saying, I personally hate FR, and I am glad its been gutted.

  16. #9496
    Guys stop, FR is dead, we can end the "FR is a hard to pull off" meme
    What is best in life? Bashin' stuff of course.

  17. #9497
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Guys stop, FR is dead, we can end the "FR is a hard to pull off" meme
    Well technically if you have the new legendary ring, you can still play FR.
    Curoar, Arms Warrior Expert and decipher of Blizzards Crazy Design Choices

  18. #9498
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner45 View Post
    Ehh just saying, I personally hate FR, and I am glad its been gutted.
    Why would you be happy that FR build is gutted? I can understand if you didn't like FR because it was the only viable Arms build, but why be happy that it is no longer a viable spec for those who ENJOYED it?

    I am really tired of seeing the FR hate. It has nothing to do with the FR build but everything to do with no viable alternative. Blizzard worked hard to make other builds viable for Arms. Stop perpetuating the FR hate and ruining an enjoyable spec for many players.

    I sincerely hope that the current changes to FR are reconsidered because it's the only high APM spec that is fun and it's currently UNPLAYABLE on the PTR due to rage management nerfs in Precise Strikes rage reductions, Dauntless rage reduction nerf, Battle Cry nerf, and Focused Rage rage cost increases. Unfathomable on the reasons why.
    Last edited by bigtom; 2017-05-25 at 04:22 AM.

  19. #9499
    Personally I'm fine with FR style of play, but I really felt disappointed that they changed the Arms talent tree. Now I'll need the new legendary ring to make FR spect viable ...I think it's not fair for people that are fine with FR spec...oh well we'll see.

  20. #9500
    Im kind of new to playing arms but isnt focused rage part of the reason deadly calm is even good, and once theyre mutually exclusive (with the exception of the new ring) will deadly calm even be as valuable (without even considering the 25% nerf)
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