Fury Legion Discussion

[Murlocbait]

Goddamnit, what's happening? I don't hate everything I'm seeing... I'm not sure about a lot of it just yet (RIP Sweeping Strikes) but so far it seems like there could be some good stuff here.

[Archimtiros]

Funny enough, Wild Strike and Unyielding Strikes are both still listed, but I'm pretty sure they are scrapped remnants.

[regularspecial]

I wouldn't be surprised if we saw WS axed.

The shortened GCD allows it to dump a lot of rage in a short time (less so since they lowered the cost), but HS and rampage + carnage do the same thing.

I'm terrible at math and I know this is very early numbers, but is the DPR of WS able to compete with two heroic strikes buffed by a entry or moderate amount of mastery?

[Gladio]

Goddamnit, what's happening? I don't hate everything I'm seeing... I'm not sure about a lot of it just yet (RIP Sweeping Strikes) but so far it seems like there could be some good stuff here.

Haha I understand what you're feeling, Blizz why you mess with my emotions!

[Archimtiros]

I wouldn't be surprised if we saw WS axed.

The shortened GCD allows it to dump a lot of rage in a short time (less so since they lowered the cost), but HS and rampage + carnage do the same thing.

I'm terrible at math and I know this is very early numbers, but is the DPR of WS able to compete with two heroic strikes buffed by a entry or moderate amount of mastery?

I'm positive that it is, wasn't trying to start conspiracy theories, just pointing it out.

Better is kind of subjective, because there's more than just DPR to consider, but let's run through the motions anyway. The Wild Strike listed costs 30 rage and deals 375% offhand-weapon damage. Heroic Strike costs 15 rage and deals 130% weapon damage and doesn't specify whether that's main hand, with both weapons combined (65%x2) or with each weapon individually (130%x2) and gains double the damage bonus from Enrage (not double damage).

Lets pretend your weapon damage is 1,000 (for each weapon, I know offhand is actually lower) just to keep it simple, and that Enrage is a 30% bonus.
Wild Strike would deal 3,750 damage +30% bonus for 4875 damage. It's DPR is 162.5.
Heroic Strike (130%) would deal 1,300 damage +60% bonus for 2,080 damage. It's DPR is 138.6.
Heroic Strike (130%x2) would deal 2,600 damage +60% bonus for 4,160 damage. It's DPR is 277.3.

However, this real question comes in the form of opportunity cost. Heroic Strike has none, because nothing else is on the GCD. Wild Strike on the other hand takes the place of Rampage or RB, which can actually generate Rage if talented.

At 700% weapon damage, Rampage would do 7,000 damage +30% bonus for 9,100 damage. It's DPR is 182.
If Rampage hits with both weapons, as most Fury attacks do, it would do 14,000 damage +30% for 18,200. It's DPR is then 364.
At 400% weapon damage (200%x2), Raging Blow would do 4,000 damage +30% bonus for 5,200 damage. At 10 rage, it's DPR is 520. Turn it into a rage generator and efficient doesn't even begin to describe it.

These are the attacks that should be compared to Wild Strike, not Heroic Strike. DPR only tells half the story, that's why we consider DPET (damage per execution time, aka GCD) as well.

[Deleted]

Holy shit reading the spell changes I'm giddy as fuck pls give beta aj iouwerahynTGYHNGR

[Toppy]

So.... the only new survivability fury has is the 5% on blood thirst and a better enraged regen?

Doesnt seem to make up for 30% more damage taken.

Anyone else also notice the lack of titans grip? Looks like blizz was planning on removing it outright prior to blizzcon.

EDIT: and the extra HP is a talent? lol

[regularspecial]

So.... the only new survivability fury has is the 5% on blood thirst and a better enraged regen?

Doesnt seem to make up for 30% more damage taken.

Anyone else also notice the lack of titans grip? Looks like blizz was planning on removing it outright prior to blizzcon.

Great contribution there.

Normally I think addressing this type of post is as stupid as the post itself but, here goes;

Did you even read the spell changes or did you just do a cursory glance and immediately run here to complain?


Did you fail to notice ER is a whopping 50% instant and can be talented to a 1min CD? But maybe that isn't enough.

You also didn't seem to notice the 10% buff on Die by the Sword.

Or, hell, the talent to reduce damage taken by 20% after charge.

Could you at least read the things you're going to complain about before filling up the topic with nonsense?

[Toppy]

Great contribution there.

Normally I think addressing this type of post is as stupid as the post itself but, here goes;

Did you even read the spell changes or did you just do a cursory glance and immediately run here to complain?

SMF wasn't mentioned at all in the spell changes, I guess that mean's its removed right?

Did you fail to notice ER is a whopping 50% instant and can be talented to a 1min CD? But maybe that isn't enough.

You also didn't seem to notice the 10% buff on Die by the Sword.

Or, hell, the talent to reduce damage taken by 20% after charge.

Could you at least read the things you're going to complain about before filling up the topic with nonsense?

Yes, and arms warrior gets largely the same. Minus the charge.

So, arms warrior is benefiting from the def boons while also not taking an extra 30%. Arms also gets def stance which fury seems to have lost.

So no, I very much did see the changes. I just also noted that fury isnt the only one benefiting from them.

SMF is also mentioned, look again. Maybe you need to look closer. Thats why the lack of TG stood out to me: SMF was mentioned, TG was not.

[regularspecial]

Yes, and arms warrior gets largely the same. Minus the charge.

So, arms warrior is benefiting from the def boons while also not taking an extra 30%. Arms also gets def stance which fury seems to have lost.

So no, I very much did see the changes. I just also noted that fury isnt the only one benefiting from them.

SMF is also mentioned, look again. Maybe you need to look closer. Thats why the lack of TG stood out to me: SMF was mentioned, TG was not.

Arms get's a -25% damage taken toggle.

That's a huge boon to staying up.

Fury gets increased health and a huge self heal on a potential 1min CD. DBTS is buffed and you can talent a 20% reduction on your charge.

It's an awkward defensive to use, but it's still a reduction nonetheless.


If you run into problems staying up in a raid then the issue is either your healers or the 30% being over-tuned. I doubt we'll see such a thing miss the tuning pass, so I think it's safe to assume you falling over will be due to healers. That's something entirely out of your control once you expend your personals unless the damage is avoidable.

If the fear is PvP, I think the obvious thing is to go arms and sit in dstance all day because -25% damage taken on demand is something you cannot pass up while eating novas and stuns.

[Toppy]

Arms get's a -25% damage taken toggle.

That's a huge boon to staying up.

Fury gets increased health and a huge self heal on a potential 1min CD. DBTS is buffed and you can talent a 20% reduction on your charge.

It's an awkward defensive to use, but it's still a reduction nonetheless.

Oh I do agree, its nice defense. The question is, does it make up for the 30% taken? For PvP, perhaps. But for PvE will the charge be a viable option? Tying defense to that seems stupid from a PvE perspective.

[cFortyfive]

SMF is also mentioned, look again. Maybe you need to look closer. Thats why the lack of TG stood out to me: SMF was mentioned, TG was not.

I'd presume for now that's because tg doesn't do anything but enable you to wield two 2h weapons.

[regularspecial]

Oh I do agree, its nice defense. The question is, does it make up for the 30% taken? For PvP, perhaps. But for PvE will the charge be a viable option? Tying defense to that seems stupid from a PvE perspective.

It's an awkward defensive to use, so the best thing to do would be to talent enraged regen and we're left with exactly as many options as we've got now, only they are stronger, coupled with 25% more health.

We take more damage, and if that's good or bad design is another discussion entirely.

If warriors start dropping like flies because of it, I guarantee it will be tuned immediately. Raid testing is a big part of beta, and there is no way in hell top guilds aren't going to let Bliz know if warriors become a liability.

Edit: With the push of class fantasy, we're never going to have the defensive toolkit of a rogue; Bliz wants fury to be a reckless berserker, but they also understand that the class can't be literal dead weight.

At worst they'll just give us enough health so that the 30% is balanced and largely unnoticed.

[Toppy]

It's an awkward defensive to use, so the best thing to do would be to talent enraged regen and we're left with exactly as many options as we've got now, only they are stronger, coupled with 25% more health.

We take more damage, and if that's good or bad design is another discussion entirely.

If warriors start dropping like flies because of it, I guarantee it will be tuned immediately. Raid testing is a big part of beta, and there is no way in hell top guilds aren't going to let Bliz know if warriors become a liability.

Hopefully.

But knowing blizzards past, they have little issue with a spec being useless so long as the class has at least one viable one, and are very notorious for ignoring beta feedback.

[regularspecial]

Hopefully.

But knowing blizzards past, they have little issue with a spec being useless so long as the class has at least one viable one, and are very notorious for ignoring beta feedback.

I wouldn't take WoD's beta as the standard for Blizz listening to feedback; for every WoD arms you've got a MoP Fury. They've implemented many proposed changes like lengthening enrage's duration to cover bladestorm and the new meat grinder has been tossed around for quite some time too.

Did they drop the ball? Undoubtedly, but you can't look at things like baseline sudden death and the return of heroic strike and say they don't listen to feedback.

They even made recklessness not suck.

[Gorka]

Righteo, so I thought it might be worth consolidating the Fury spell changes into an easy to read format. This is not complete, I am just mentioning the things I think are important, I may edit in future to add things/ modify when clarification comes out.

Talents

Tier 1
Heroic Strike - Deals moderate damage (130%) but it has 2x the benefit from enrage mastery
Sweeping Strikes - Raging Blow and Execute hit a second target (assuming for 100% at this time)
Additional extras that require level 15, but I have no idea how they fit as talents (maybe we get them all?)
Shockwave - No change
Storm Bolt - No change
Siegebreaker - No longer replaces intimidating shout (but then again, maybe it is not a talent, and is just something we get)

Tier 2
Furious Charge - 20% damage reduction for 5s after using charge
Seething Rage - Enrage regeneration CD reduced by 60s (to 1min) and remove the rage cost (it normally has rage cost in Legion)
Bounding Strike - pretty much replacing the two glyphs for Heroic Leap into 1 (so 15s less CD and 70% speed boost for 3s after using)

Tier 3
Imposing Roar - Our raid cooldown (rallying cry, named changed to commanding shout) gives 20% leech to us (pretty much the glyph)
Double Time - increase charges of charge by 1 (no mention of not being able to generate rage from charges in succession)
Second Wind - If you do not take damage for 5s you start to heal for 6% every second. (Big heal great for questing, not so much in raid)

Tier 4
Endless Rage - 50% additional rage generation
Extras that I don't know if are for Fury yet, time will tell:
Overpower (I really don't think we get this, but it is not listed as spec specific)
Dauntless - abilities cost 20% less rage (again, I'm not sure if this is meant for Fury)
Avatar - Same ol'

Tier 5
Enraging Blows - Raging Blow now generates 10rage
Bladestorm - Simply amazing (same as always)
Frenzy - Damaging ability that gives a stacking haste buff (up to 25%)

Tier 6
Unquenchable Thirst - Bloodthirst now generates 10 more rage than usual
And a maybe (it does sound more like protection though):
Into the Fray - 5% haste buff for each enemy in 10yards, stacks up to 5 times (I really dont think they will give us this and Frenzy for free 50% haste in aoe)

Tier 7
Carnage - Rampage now deals 20% more damage and consumes all extra rage, dealing more damage proportional to rage spent
Reckless Abandon - Reduces cooldown by 50% (so down to 30s!) and it generates 100rage
And a lot of other spells that require level 100, not sure if talents:
Opportunity Strikes - up to 30% chance for auto attacks to proc another auto attack that 2x damage (chance based on enemy missing health)(seems more arms)
Anger Management - reduce cooldown of (it says Shield Wall and Last Stand, but I am assuming typo and meant - ) recklessness by 1s for every 10 rage spent
Dragon Roar - no more knockback, same damage, but increase damage dealt to affected targets by 20% for 6s
Ravager - damage increase from 61.5% to 1 (assume that means 100%?)

Tier 8
Nothing yet (maybe some of those required level 100 will go here)


Spell Changes of Note:
- No more vigilance
- Fury does not get victory rush (arms only)

- Bloodbath, now just a cooldown we get from level 1! Seemingly
- Juggernaut is inherent, again seemingly
- Mass Spell Reflection is inherent (we do not get that juicy new spell reflect magic damage reduction ability - damn)
- Safeguard in inherent (seemingly)

- Die by the Sword's baseline damage reduction increased by 10% (now 30% damage reduction and 100% parry for 8s) (is now Fury only) (not a buff, just merging the WoD perk into it - Info thanks to Archimtiros)
- Execute got buffed (was 350 for each hand, now 420 for main, 350 for off)
- Recklessness is now 100% crit for 5s and only has a 1 minute cooldown
- Whirlwind damage increased from 70% to 240% (huge damage boost)
- Meatcleaver buff gained when WW does damage, buff makes next RB hit 4 more targets (great aoe buff)


I would like to talk about one glaring beautiful syngery, Rampage and Recklessness. Rampage does damage in 5 hits over 2s (100%, 100%, 100%, 200%, 200%).
So if we rampage, then after 1second cast reckless, then rampage immediately after we get a huge boost.
Now this also leads into a final discussion on the whole build/ theorycraft argument. There seems to be some good options here, we could get massive rampages with carnage, or go for great burst windows with reckless abandon
- for the later build to 50rage, Rampage, after 1 sec cast Recklessness, then cast two more rampages for a total of 1900%AP (not including mastery) with 100% crit, GREAT SCOTT! and this can be done every 30 seconds!!!!!

From what I have read so far there seems to be a great deal of choice (there will always be a best dps option ofc, but a lot is situational, making a allround choice less obvious).

I do have concerns for complexity, and I think this is a good thing. The class could become incredibly complex if you want to build that way, and it may be the best dps option, but having to manage so much rage generation, time burst windows, manage stacks of frenzy (or manage rage more with heroic strike) it all seems exciting, and I for one cannot wait for Beta testing to commence so I can see it in action!

[kubuntu]

Righteo, so I thought it might be worth consolidating the Fury spell changes into an easy to read format. This is not complete, I am just mentioning the things I think are important, I may edit in future to add things/ modify when clarification comes out.

Talents

Tier 1
Frenzy - Damaging ability that gives a stacking haste buff (up to 25%)
Heroic Strike - Deals moderate damage (130%) but it has 2x the benefit from enrage mastery
Sweeping Strikes - Raging Blow and Execute hit a second target (assuming for 100% at this time)
Additional extras that require level 15, but I have no idea how they fit as talents (maybe we get them all?)
Shockwave - No change
Storm Bolt - No change
Siegebreaker - No longer replaces intimidating shout (but then again, maybe it is not a talent, and is just something we get)

Tier 2
Furious Charge - 20% damage reduction for 5s after using charge
Seething Rage - Enrage regeneration CD reduced by 60s (to 1min) and remove the rage cost (it normally has rage cost in Legion)
Bounding Strike - pretty much replacing the two glyphs for Heroic Leap into 1 (so 15s less CD and 70% speed boost for 3s after using)

Tier 3
Imposing Roar - Our raid cooldown (rallying cry, named changed to commanding shout) gives 20% leech to us (pretty much the glyph)
Double Time - increase charges of charge by 1 (no mention of not being able to generate rage from charges in succession)
Second Wind - If you do not take damage for 5s you start to heal for 6% every second. (Big heal great for questing, not so much in raid)

Tier 4
Endless Rage - 50% additional rage generation
Extras that I don't know if are for Fury yet, time will tell:
Overpower (I really don't think we get this, but it is not listed as spec specific)
Dauntless - abilities cost 20% less rage (again, I'm not sure if this is meant for Fury)
Avatar - Same ol'

Tier 5
Enraging Blows - Raging Blow now generates 10rage
Bladestorm - Simply amazing (same as always)

Tier 6
Unquenchable Thirst - Bloodthirst now generates 10 more rage than usual
And a maybe (it does sound more like protection though):
Into the Fray - 5% haste buff for each enemy in 10yards, stacks up to 5 times (I really dont think they will give us this and Frenzy for free 50% haste in aoe)

Tier 7
Carnage - Rampage now deals 20% more damage and consumes all extra rage, dealing more damage proportional to rage spent
Reckless Abandon - Reduces cooldown by 50% (so down to 30s!) and it generates 100rage
And a lot of other spells that require level 100, not sure if talents:
Opportunity Strikes - up to 30% chance for auto attacks to proc another auto attack that 2x damage (chance based on enemy missing health)(seems more arms)
Anger Management - reduce cooldown of (it says Shield Wall and Last Stand, but I am assuming typo and meant - ) recklessness by 1s for every 10 rage spent
Dragon Roar - no more knockback, same damage, but increase damage dealt to affected targets by 20% for 6s
Ravager - damage increase from 61.5% to 1 (assume that means 100%?)

Tier 8
Nothing yet (maybe some of those required level 100 will go here)


Spell Changes of Note:
- No more vigilance
- Fury does not get victory rush (arms only)

- Bloodbath, now just a cooldown we get from level 1! Seemingly
- Juggernaut is inherent, again seemingly
- Mass Spell Reflection is inherent (we do not get that juicy new spell reflect magic damage reduction ability - damn)
- Safeguard in inherent (seemingly)

- Die by the Sword's damage reduction increased by 10% (now 30% damage reduction and 100% parry for 8s) (is now Fury only)
- Execute got buffed (was 350 for each hand, now 420 for main, 350 for off)
- Recklessness is now 100% crit for 5s and only has a 1 minute cooldown
- Whirlwind damage increased from 70% to 240% (huge damage boost)
- Meatcleaver buff gained when WW does damage, buff makes next RB hit 4 more targets (great aoe buff)


I would like to talk about one glaring beautiful syngery, Rampage and Recklessness. Rampage does damage in 5 hits over 2s (100%, 100%, 100%, 200%, 200%).
So if we rampage, then after 1second cast reckless, then rampage immediately after we get a huge boost.
Now this also leads into a final discussion on the whole build/ theorycraft argument. There seems to be some good options here, we could get massive rampages with carnage, or go for great burst windows with reckless abandon
- for the later build to 50rage, Rampage, after 1 sec cast Recklessness, then cast two more rampages for a total of 1900%AP (not including mastery) with 100% crit, GREAT SCOTT! and this can be done every 30 seconds!!!!!

From what I have read so far there seems to be a great deal of choice (there will always be a best dps option ofc, but a lot is situational, making a allround choice less obvious).

I do have concerns for complexity, and I think this is a good thing. The class could become incredibly complex if you want to build that way, and it may be the best dps option, but having to manage so much rage generation, time burst windows, manage stacks of frenzy (or manage rage more with heroic strike) it all seems exciting, and I for one cannot wait for Beta testing to commence so I can see it in action!

Probably some talents didnt have spec asing to them that why some row have more then 3 talents

[Murlocbait]

Tier 8
Nothing yet (maybe some of those required level 100 will go here)

No 8th tier of talents - the Artifacts take over for character progression past 100.

Edit: PS. Nice write-up. Hard to say where everything goes just yet, but well done with what's available.

[Toppy]

No 8th tier of talents - the Artifacts take over for character progression past 100.

Edit: PS. Nice write-up. Hard to say where everything goes just yet, but well done with what's available.

this is an important thing to note, artifacts have their own abilities and modifiers

[chooi]

Side note, I don't think anyone has noticed yet: Stances are effectively gone.

Who could see that coming?

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...nces-in-Legion