Fury Legion Discussion

[Artunias]

It's the other way around (from your post on the alpha foruns). Enrage buff should have a fixated time, while "Flurry" should suffer from Haste.

If you look at names only, that might be true. But if you look at the effects you'll see they are the same. The alpha post needs to be taken in its context, and this one needs to be taken in its own as well.

I guess I should stick to calling everything the same, I just liked the idea of flurry and listing the effects beside the name should have been clear enough.

Either way, the attack speed should be static. The use of abilities should be dynamic.

[Saiona]

I just wish they got rid of our mastery. Not being enraged feels so awful

[Artunias]

I just wish they got rid of our mastery. Not being enraged feels so awful

It didn't bother me when enrage was activated by Rampage and Bloodthirst. You still have Rampage as an option to hit regardless of enrage status. Yes, rage generation while not enraged makes this a struggle sometimes. Always on mastery feels pretty boring, enrage was working pretty well in the previous build. It can work well again without turning it to a static effect.

If they turned enrage to 8 seconds (under the split buff scenario), haste shenanigans included, it would be fine IMO if it remains activated by both Rampage and BT. There needs to be a hardcap on the reduction, the sameway our gcd gets hard capped at 1 second. But I don't think it's necessary to just ditch the idea. It feels right being tied to actively doing damage. Making it easy to keep up while doing damage? That should be the goal.

Bladestorm would be the only issue at higher levels of haste, but that wouldn't be that hard to fix. You could make it scale with haste as well, or always deal damage as if enraged. Or bladestorm hits would refresh enrage. bladestorm hits would add 1 second to enrage. And more. Not a big deal.

[Deleted]

thanks for the explanations
if things stay as they are now (and let's hope they don't), can it be that having "too much" haste devalues mastery?

[jarbulldog]

Tell me if other people are seeing this,

They are so determined to keep the additional damage taken while enraged, they are trying reduce the time we are in enraged so they can say see it works.

[Haveth]

It didn't bother me when enrage was activated by Rampage and Bloodthirst. You still have Rampage as an option to hit regardless of enrage status. Yes, rage generation while not enraged makes this a struggle sometimes. Always on mastery feels pretty boring, enrage was working pretty well in the previous build. It can work well again without turning it to a static effect.

If they turned enrage to 8 seconds (under the split buff scenario), haste shenanigans included, it would be fine IMO if it remains activated by both Rampage and BT. There needs to be a hardcap on the reduction, the sameway our gcd gets hard capped at 1 second. But I don't think it's necessary to just ditch the idea. It feels right being tied to actively doing damage. Making it easy to keep up while doing damage? That should be the goal.

Bladestorm would be the only issue at higher levels of haste, but that wouldn't be that hard to fix. You could make it scale with haste as well, or always deal damage as if enraged. Or bladestorm hits would refresh enrage. bladestorm hits would add 1 second to enrage. And more. Not a big deal.

The new haste effecting the duration of enrage really doesn't belong at all. It only solves a very niche problem (That probably won't even be a problem considering the value of Crit and Mastery for Fury anyway) that will only confuse newer players or those that don't necessarily read guides on the class. Adding on to that, since it takes so much set up of Bloodthirst to get it to respectable extra crit levels like on live (3 Furious Strikes), Blizzard has effectively introduced the haste "problem" themselves when deciding whether to stack more haste to fit more GCDs in enrage, or going for another buffed Bloodthirst (Which again, takes many more globals than before) to enrage. If enraging from Bloodthirst was more reliable and didn't take as many GCDs, the obvious choice would be to stack Crit/Mastery and go for a new enrage, over fitting more inside the first enrage.

The blue post on the forums seems like a bandaid fix to the convoluted gameplay of Fury mechanics, and that they are trying so hard to shoehorn Furious Strike and short enrage into the rotation that they are having to do a million other little things to make it "work". At this point I think it would be more productive to go back to the beginning - the drawing board, and look at Fury again.

[Artunias]

I don't disagree really, just that I think it's workable. Either way, we need to wait for the next build as it will give us a better idea of their direction.

[Haveth]

thanks for the explanations
if things stay as they are now (and let's hope they don't), can it be that having "too much" haste devalues mastery?

When looking at it from a basic rotational perspective, no, since it would be similar to now where Fury generally fits 2 globals in between each bloodthirst CDs, since that's how it scales at any haste level with the way haste reduces the GCD and Bloodthirst CD. The problem here is, on live you don't necessarily have to spend exactly 2 globals between Bloodthirsts, you could spend 3 or 4 at higher gear levels since you can reliably crit on the next bloodthirst most of the time, so you don't have to refresh the enrage buff while it has a few seconds left like you do at lower crit levels, just in case you don't crit.

In Legion, with the new haste change, you are essentially forced to spend exactly 2 globals after enraging with Bloodthirst, since you are only enraged for that many globals, no matter your gear level, and then you're back to spamming Furious Strike and fishing for an Enrage proc with Bloodthirst. Even more is the discrepancy in duration of our major CDs, as other have said, Bladestorm is essentially getting the short end of the stick and has to be bandaid fixed somehow, so that we can get the enrage buff for the entire duration of it, as well as Battle Cry (Reck) last 5 seconds, which isn't the duration of Bladestorm, and is nowhere near the duration of Enrage, so we will 100% have to spend a global on Bloodthirst during our very, very short main cooldown. Fury has essentially turned into an amalgamation of poor decisions that are being forced to work together with duct tape and bandaids.

Edit: Looking back now, it somewhat does, depending on what Blizzard's goal and what % of enrage uptime they are shooting for. Fury might be headed towards stacking ungodly amounts of crit and haste so that we don't have to spend as many globals on Furious Strike, especially if they return Rampage to doing damage as if enraged all the time. It's difficult to give any constructive feedback at this point, because Celestalon gave no hint at what they are shooting for with Fury, and apparently it is very different from what the players have in mind.

[Overlord Fordragon]

Being enraged seems like it's in its worst iteration the enrage 'buff' needs to stack in time.

Example, you use bloodthirsty/Rampage and proc enrage while on 2 seconds of the buff left, enrage now has 6 seconds left. I don't think it should stack indefinitely maybe to 8-10 seconds? Just enough to allow for all the windows ( Dragon roar, Bladestorm etc. )
edit: I'd only take this approach if they are not willing to flat out increase enrage time.

Secondly: Rampage, a two second GCD. It's clunky, I'd like blizzard to take it back to the original design in which most people believed that you could use other attacks while rampaging, making it akin to old heroic strike, it would probably recquire a damage nerf but it would allow us to get enrage off the GCD as well.

[Deleted]

When looking at it from a basic rotational perspective, no, since it would be similar to now where Fury generally fits 2 globals in between each bloodthirst CDs, since that's how it scales at any haste level with the way haste reduces the GCD and Bloodthirst CD. The problem here is, on live you don't necessarily have to spend exactly 2 globals between Bloodthirsts, you could spend 3 or 4 at higher gear levels since you can reliably crit on the next bloodthirst most of the time, so you don't have to refresh the enrage buff while it has a few seconds left like you do at lower crit levels, just in case you don't crit.

In Legion, with the new haste change, you are essentially forced to spend exactly 2 globals after enraging with Bloodthirst, since you are only enraged for that many globals, no matter your gear level, and then you're back to spamming Furious Strike and fishing for an Enrage proc with Bloodthirst. Even more is the discrepancy in duration of our major CDs, as other have said, Bladestorm is essentially getting the short end of the stick and has to be bandaid fixed somehow, so that we can get the enrage buff for the entire duration of it, as well as Battle Cry (Reck) last 5 seconds, which isn't the duration of Bladestorm, and is nowhere near the duration of Enrage, so we will 100% have to spend a global on Bloodthirst during our very, very short main cooldown. Fury has essentially turned into an amalgamation of poor decisions that are being forced to work together with duct tape and bandaids.

Edit: Looking back now, it somewhat does, depending on what Blizzard's goal and what % of enrage uptime they are shooting for. Fury might be headed towards stacking ungodly amounts of crit and haste so that we don't have to spend as many globals on Furious Strike, especially if they return Rampage to doing damage as if enraged all the time. It's difficult to give any constructive feedback at this point, because Celestalon gave no hint at what they are shooting for with Fury, and apparently it is very different from what the players have in mind.

I'm not in the alpha so i can only judge how it looks from the outside and i could very well be dead wrong , but to me it seems that there's a general lack of good ideas, that they are mostly throwing stuff at players to see what gets the nod and what doesn't.
The overall feeling is that they do not yet have a clear notion on how the spec should be, which isn't bad thing per se considering it's still an alpha.

[Deleted]

I've checked up on Archi's Feedback Thread and Celestalons response and am anticipating to see how it plays out.

I feel like as if Blizzard hasn't had the intention to give us 100% Enrage uptime and it definitely needs a rework in my oppinion. I also feel like this Crit-dependency needs to go in unison with it. I am not a sucker for "Class-fantasy" either, but I do get that it's important to some and that Blizzard wants to get that feel back. So how do you fight these problems while retaining the Class-fantasy of a raging berserker AND an engaging playstyle?

I feel like the whole "raging" part in terms of enrage is a good place to start.

What if there were different, cycling states of rage? A raging berserker that thrives in the midst of carnage doesn't just go nuts with the blink of an eye. I'd argue they have their ups and downs, working themselves up in the midst of battle to increasingly lethal states of rage, releasing more and more brutal blows until their blood lust is quenched.

It's pretty late here, so I'll just give you guys the general idea I have. Feel free to (obviously) give Feedback as needed and if you have ideas to advance this and build upon this via Talents/the Artifact, PLEASE definitely submit them here.

First of all:

Bloodthirst
-> 30 Seconds CD
-> Triggers "Enrage"
-> CD no longer affected by Headlong Rush (only decreases overall GCD)
-> No longer has an additional Crit Chance

Enrage
-> Lasts 10 Seconds
-> Activates "Raging Blow" usage
-> After falling off, "Enrage" triggers "Frenzy"
-> Increases Rage generation by 35%

Frenzy
-> Lasts 8 Seconds
-> "Raging Blow" stays activated, but now generates 15 Rage
-> "Rampage" costs 30% less Rage
-> Haste increased by 25%
-> After falling off, "Frenzy" triggers "Outburst"

Outburst
-> Lasts 4 Seconds
-> Activates "Execute" usage for the duration, regardless of Target-HP and with no cost
-> (If the target is below 20% HP, "Execute" deals damage as if 50 Rage was consumed)
-> "Rampage" is off the GCD during Outburst
-> You retain the 25% Haste increase, but loose active access to "Raging Blow" for the duration
-> After falling off, "Outburst" triggers "Combat Fatigue"


Combat Fatigue
-> Lasts 8 Seconds
-> Resets the Cooldown on "Bloodthirst"
-> Your overall damage done is decreased by 50% for the duration
-> "Bloodthirst" triggers no cooldown for the duration, but also can't trigger "Enrage" normally.
-> "Bloodthirst" critical strikes during "Combat Fatigue", will give you one usage of Raging Blow. This Raging Blow will not be affected by the 50% damage decrease.

Mastery: Unshackled Fury
-> The additional damage done affects "Enrage", "Frenzy" and "Outburst"

Execute
-> Remains the highest-throughput ability
-> Costs 25 Rage and can consume up to 25 additional rage for additional damage

Warswords of Valarjar Procc
-> Raging Blow and Execute have a chance to activate Berserking, increasing your critical strike chance by 1.5% and your critical damage by 5% every 1 sec for 12 sec.
_______________________________________________________________________________________

And a first talent idea, replacing Frenzy on the 75 line.

Ring of Trauma (Passive)
-> While "Outburst" is active, you also gain a circular aura, that transfers x% of all damage done to the primary target onto all other enemies within 8 yards.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

Ofc, this would require quite a few talent changes and iterations, as well as some number tuning (as always).

But I feel like, this approach would give Fury a "furious berserker", ramping and spiking burst-damage rotation, that ends in a moderate cool-down phase. Making Bloodthirst available as a permanent filler for "Combat Fatigue", in order to give you something to push, with Crit-RNG enabling you to fill with a stronger attack, thus enhancing your fatigue-rotation a bit with RNG (also effectively giving Crit a decent value, as it >can< lower your effective DPS loss a bit by giving you access to a stronger ability).

[GemaRawr]

-snip-

Something cyclical like this wouldn't be a bad idea if it were toned down. Even something like Bandit's Guile or Unyielding Strikes could accomplish this.

Blood Frenzy. Bloodthirst causes you to revel in the chaos of combat, gradually increasing your attack speed(and reducing global cooldown?) by up to 30%. This maximum effect will last for 15 sec before fading and beginning the cycle anew. Possibly grant Enrage for the entire duration of the max stack, maybe via a talent.

-Lets us continue our normal rotation regardless of crits
-Fits the class fantasy of raging berserker. Working our way up to a flurry of blood and steel, then becoming "exhausted" and having to start over
-Bloodthirst becomes a tool to enhance our rotation, rather than a gating mechanic
-Ideally tuned to promote using BT on cooldown until max stacks. At max stacks it becomes hard to keep rage from capping

[Deleted]

Something cyclical like this wouldn't be a bad idea if it were toned down. Even something like Bandit's Guile or Unyielding Strikes could accomplish this.

Blood Frenzy. Bloodthirst causes you to revel in the chaos of combat, gradually increasing your attack speed(and reducing global cooldown?) by up to 30%. This maximum effect will last for 15 sec before fading and beginning the cycle anew. Possibly grant Enrage for the entire duration of the max stack, maybe via a talent.

-Lets us continue our normal rotation regardless of crits
-Fits the class fantasy of raging berserker. Working our way up to a flurry of blood and steel, then becoming "exhausted" and having to start over
-Bloodthirst becomes a tool to enhance our rotation, rather than a gating mechanic
-Ideally tuned to promote using BT on cooldown until max stacks. At max stacks it becomes hard to keep rage from capping

Pretty much the idea, yes. Your Blood Frenzy idea was my initial plan, but I felt like a normal "Rotation" or "Priority list" overall, feels a bit... usual. So I went with the idea of having the different stages of "Enrage", cycling through your active rotational abilities from the very bottom to the very top (culminating in a short burst-phase that grants you free Executes for the duration and gives you an opportunity to dump rage accumulated during Enrage and Frenzy with Rampage).

And the burst damage does go higher and higher. There's a lot to it and the potential for overtuning is huge. So I included a "calm-down" phase at the end, which is meant to stabilize or sink your DPS by a bit, with Crit's value coming into play there, as it's RNG will enhance your rotation by granting you an RB to restabilize the loss. However, you shouldn't feel bad if you don't get lucky, as I thought of RB as a mediocre ability in terms of output with this idea. It might not be necessary to have the damage reduction as high as 50% to begin with, it might be less. Numbers tuning would be a thing I'd leave to Blizzard in the rare case, something like this makes it through. Really just going for the overall feel and playstyle. Something that flows, can be enhanced on with talents and the likes and that finally gets rid of our dependency on one stat and rng tied to that stat.

And due to the cool-down phase, you will always have a pre-set window of Enrage downtime.

[scsc0rp]

-snip-

That's a lot of changes. Too long of a rotation too unless I am misunderstanding, a rotation should never be longer than like 8 seconds, and way too complicated for what Blizzard is shooting for.

[Artunias]

I'm not a fan of ramp ups, especially extremely long ones like that. Warriors have typically been a pretty great class at switching targets quickly and effectively, I'd like to maintain that ability as much as possible.

[Celarent]

FFS. Saying it over and over and over again: finally just get rid of our %dmg Mastery locked behind Enrage. It's the root of all evil.

. . .

I will advocate this until the end of times if necessary. I just want to see a build that does not gate our damage and damaging abilities behind Enrage for once in this Alpha/Beta.

Given how far the spec has come since the Mists beta, I agree. It's time to break the paradigm.

[Deleted]

That's a lot of changes. Too long of a rotation too unless I am misunderstanding, a rotation should never be longer than like 8 seconds, and way too complicated for what Blizzard is shooting for.

I thought so too, that's why my first iteration was having a separate ability to trigger every single state of Enrage and I scrapped it immediately in my head.
However, it's not complicated at all with this. I get that they want to streamline into simpler rotations, that's why effects are changing or abilities get toggled off, when stronger abilities are supposed to take the spotlight. It's a long rotation overall, but I get that the usual Blizzard-rotations are shorter and thus the separate stages, have different, but easy spell-priorities to make the entire thing less-overwhelming. It's basically a longer cycle broken down into 3 separate, very easy sub-rotations.

1) Enrage
-> Started by Bloodthirst
-> AA Rage generation increased
-> Raging Blow as a spender
-> Furious Strike still there (should've mentioned it) with it's charge-mechanic to present you with a free filler to conserve rage and further decrease the risk of starving and thus having dead GCD's.
-> Rampage is still an option, although it's not enhanced by the mechanic of this sub-rotation yet.

2) Frenzy
-> Enrage shouldn't be too rage-heavy, so you will go into Frenzy with a decent amount of resources.
-> Raging Blow now generates, haste increases AA generation slightly and gives you a basic GCD-decrease due to HR.
-> Rampage now costs less rage, giving you a higher throughput option with more DPR value than during Enrage.
-> Furious Strike could be locked during Frenzy, to make the phase more streamlined.

3) Outburst
-> You loose access to Raging Blow, Furious Strike could also be locked here.
-> You have 4 seconds of spamming free Executes for a short, massive-throughput phase, with Rampage being off-GCD to keep you from rage-starving.

4) Combat Fatigue
-> You loose access to everything except Bloodthirst, but you can generate a non-nerfed Raging Blow through a BT Crit, to lower your DPS loss.

I'm not a fan of ramp ups, especially extremely long ones like that. Warriors have typically been a pretty great class at switching targets quickly and effectively, I'd like to maintain that ability as much as possible.

I get the point, buddy. I made sure that the cycle stays within the boundaries of Bloodlust's duration. However, the stage-intermissions basically proceed on their own, so you can always target-switch without having to worry about the cycle stopping or else. Of course the effectiveness of your target-switch depends on your point in the rotation, but that would still be a thing if you wouldn't be switching regardless. When you have something in range to hit, you can.

The ramp-up >can< be a problem with trinkets proccs or else on the pull, but maybe we can create a talent (or multiple) to deal with that problem. However, if you tune the numbers right, I doubt that having proccs during Enrage instead of during Frenzy or Outburst will be much of a problem. The goal is to create something quite bursty, with a moderate burst-downtime at the end of the cycle, to push it back in line in terms of balance.



Overall, I get where you both are coming from. I think that except for the ramp-up of it, everything else should be accomodated for. Maybe Combat Fatigue could use some work and there's definitely the question of what Talents go well with this or what talents we could come up with, that could be worthwhile replacements for what wouldn't be fitting.

At the end of the day, this is an idea that I came up with in my head, lamenting over our past 4 years and what we have in Legion at the moment. If it can make it to the Alpha Forums, I'm glad. If not, it was worth posting it at least here and getting the Feedback of you guys, as that will give me a decent basis for further Feedback in the Alpha or maybe a different approach on the concept I came up with.

- - - Updated - - -

-> How about a Talent that switches Outburst's and Enrage's placement in the cycle, for those that don't like Ramp-ups?

[Overlord Fordragon]

I like how I present a post with answers that could simply solve some problems the class is having, just to have everyone come in after and ignore it.

Really gives me hope for the the class. Not.

[Haveth]

I like how I present a post with answers that could simply solve some problems the class is having, just to have everyone come in after and ignore it.

Really gives me hope for the the class. Not.

The problem is that with the latest haste change, there's not really any chance that enrage will stack like that, especially since I'm guessing Blizzard will remove the enrage extension mechanic on rampage in favor of the enrage proc talked about in Celestalon's post, although it's unclear whether it will be crit based, or baseline enrage proc on rampage usage.

On the other hand, things like NoNamedPride's posts with complete spec overhauls are usually nothing more useful than brainstorming ideas, as getting massive changes to the spec like that aren't particularly common. Just realized that come off as a bit mean, but it's more of an observation than anything personal .

The best anyone can do at this point is take what tools Blizzard has given us, and build something workable around them, even if those tools are Celery sticks, a sharpie, and a handful of spaghetti.

[Overlord Fordragon]

Snip

Well thank you for replying at least.