Fury Legion Discussion

[Bigbazz]

Definitely way different, but it is one of the more fun specs on the Alpha. I don't see how you can ever not play Carnage, but at least the option is there to make it enjoyable.

Enrage management in Execute phase and on AoE is still frustrating when trying to maximize performance.

I think to maximise Fury performance brings up a lot of issues that maybe the average joe isn't gonna notice. They are just gonna be seeing buttons light up and smashing them for big numbers, which is why I think it will be popular. For more progression/high end players the closer you get to maximising the spec the more holes you're gonna find.

That's how I've seen it anyway, I mentioned it's fun on single target because in that situation it really works but it gets messy on sustained AOE. When we're deciding "ok it's time to drop carnage for Dragon Roar" on single target in combination with frenzy stacks maybe it's going to start feeling messy from ability bloat and that short enrage duration. But I think Fury is different to Arms, Arms is not fun for anyone and has frustrations that will annoy everyone on multiple levels where as Fury has more isolated frustrations and the general player will probably like it.

That's how I see it anyway, unless we see some drastic swings in in playstyle/performance of the specs I'm going to be playing Fury in Legion primarily.

get 85rage->rampage->reck->rampage
reckless abadon is this way way better; you fit 2x rampage into 1 reck

I disagree, in PVP that might be useful but in PVE (outside of possible isolated situations) you will prefer Carnage or Dragon Roar, it's already possible to put 2 rampages into 1 reck while using carnage, and carnage is increasing your enrage uptime/damage throughout the whole fight and not just during reck. Our other Warrior also running Fury last night bemoaned his decision to take reckless abandon as I completely crushed him on dps by running carnage.

[Artunias]

I think to maximise Fury performance brings up a lot of issues that maybe the average joe isn't gonna notice. They are just gonna be seeing buttons light up and smashing them for big numbers, which is why I think it will be popular. For more progression/high end players the closer you get to maximising the spec the more holes you're gonna find.

Definitely agree.

[Maltore]

A couple of simple theorycrafting questions: (I know tuning hasn't happened, but I doubt things will change much from here)

1. Am I correct in thinking that Haste reduces the "channel" time of Rampage? I'm trying to figure out how many GCDs can fit inside Enrage after you use Rampage (Enrage begins at start of Rampage cast, right?). If so, it looks like you need >20% Haste to fit in 3 GCDs, and >50% to fit in 4 GCDs. This assumes no lag, however. You'd probably need an extra few % depending on your lag.

2. How much rage is generated per melee auto-attack?

[Archimtiros]

can anyone on the alpha answer this is fury fun to play?
my ideal fury would be wrath fury does it come any where close too that?

That's incredibly subjective. Yes, I think it's rather fun, though it's not without it's problems. I wouldn't really equate it to Wrath Fury though; Wrath's hallmark was power in simplicity, and Legion Fury definitely isn't simple.

[Khelon]

Also keep in mind that while all the bonuses are the same now, that might be for testing purposes, it might not on live. At least, one can hope that they'd make things a little more custom (even though it probably won't be for the sake of equality).

Sure you could say that, but going the extra mile to have MORE people test the content seems like a better choice rather than telling us to go play the classes who have it added already. Its better to take the talent route, release everything you got for now, tweak later.

- - - Updated - - -

A couple of simple theorycrafting questions: (I know tuning hasn't happened, but I doubt things will change much from here)

1. Am I correct in thinking that Haste reduces the "channel" time of Rampage? I'm trying to figure out how many GCDs can fit inside Enrage after you use Rampage (Enrage begins at start of Rampage cast, right?). If so, it looks like you need >20% Haste to fit in 3 GCDs, and >50% to fit in 4 GCDs. This assumes no lag, however. You'd probably need an extra few % depending on your lag.

2. How much rage is generated per melee auto-attack?

1. Enrage begins the moment you press the ability and yes rampage still reduced by haste. Without any lagg you wont even fit 3 gcd's after rampage is over with only 20% haste. Currently you can start to use other spells before rampage is over(it acts as it has 1.5 gcd), but its meant to lock you for 2 whole sec (reduced by haste) till you can begin using other spells.

25% is probably what we are looking for. With that you can fit 3 gcd's and have bladestorm last for the whole battle cry duration assuming you spec outburst.

2. About 9-10 for both offhand and mainhaind

[Archimtiros]

Sure you could say that, but going the extra mile to have MORE people test the content seems like a better choice rather than telling us to go play the classes who have it added already. Its better to take the talent route, release everything you got for now, tweak later.

If you want to ignore the development time of actually implementing things, sure. Reread that part of my last post.

1. Enrage begins the moment you press the ability. Without any lagg you wont even fit 3 gcd's after rampage is over with only 20% haste. Currently you can start to use other spells before rampage is over(it acts as it has 1.5 gcd), but its meant to lock you for 2 whole sec (reduced by haste) till you can begin using other spells.

This isn't right. Enrage begins when you use the ability yes, but it's refreshed on the last hit, so you have a full 4s (2 base GCDs) when Rampage ends. Rampage has a 2s "cast" (or more accurately animation-lock), but it's also affected by Haste, which is why you're able to start an ability before the normal 2s is up.

25% is probably what we are looking for. With that you can fit 3 gcd's and have bladestorm last for the whole battle cry duration assuming you spec outburst.

To fit 3 GCDs inside Enrage you need just over 15% Haste. You also don't (currently) need Outburst for Bladestorm, as BzR will give you the damage bonus of Enrage, just not the attack speed (currently unknown whether this is a bug or not. Logic says probably, hope-beyond-hope says not).

[Khelon]

If you want to ignore the development time of actually implementing things, sure. Reread that part of my last post.



This isn't right. Enrage begins when you use the ability yes, but it's refreshed on the last hit, so you have a full 4s (2 base GCDs) when Rampage ends. Rampage has a 2s "cast" (or more accurately animation-lock), but it's also affected by Haste, which is why you're able to start an ability before the normal 2s is up.

I dont know what version of alpha you are playing, but I tested it as I was making the post & its not refreshing enrage on the final hit at all. I would be happy if it did tho.

To fit 3 GCDs inside Enrage you need just over 15% Haste. You also don't (currently) need Outburst for Bladestorm, as BzR will give you the damage bonus of Enrage, just not the attack speed (currently unknown whether this is a bug or not. Logic says probably, hope-beyond-hope says not).

It would work that way if you were right & we both know that the berserker rage dmg bonus is not going to stick around.

[Archimtiros]

I dont know what version of alpha you are playing, but I tested it as I was making the post & its not refreshing enrage on the final hit at all. I would be happy if it did tho.

They must have taken that part out. Either way, you're still going to fit 2 GCD's after it, so I suppose it doesn't really matter, outside of shifting the haste breakpoint for three GCDs inside Enrage (triggered by Rampage, not BT) to just over 26% haste (not accounting for lag).

It would work that way if you were right & we both know that the berserker rage dmg bonus is not going to stick around.

I don't know what to expect to be honest. Although it seems really strange that it should work, it's actually a really elegant solution to the problem of "always talent Outburst with Bladestorm", so I like to think it's on purpose.

[Khelon]

They must have taken that part out. Either way, you're still going to fit 2 GCD's after it, so I suppose it doesn't really matter, outside of shifting the haste breakpoint for three GCDs inside Enrage (triggered by Rampage, not BT) to just over 26% haste (not accounting for lag).



I don't know what to expect to be honest. Although it seems really strange that it should work, it's actually a really elegant solution to the problem of "always talent Outburst with Bladestorm", so I like to think it's on purpose.

With that much haste you probably would start to use bloodthirst right after rampage, even if it would look like you are wasting enrage time. Rampage -> Bloodthirst -> fit 2 raging blows in before enrage falls off & then bloodthirst becomes available as soon as enrage drop. And by that time if the bloodthirst fails you will have enough rage to rampage again.

The proper solution would be to remove outburst, give the enrage effect to berserker rage & give us a real talent to work with. Nobody will like it if the enrage mastery gets removed from baseline berserker rage & we will be forced to pick outburst rather than it being an option.

But speaking of things that is unclear if its bugs or not. Have they said anything about how odyn's champion is supposed to interact with rampage? Currently one rampage under the odyn's champion effect reduces abilities cooldown by 15 sec, while other abilities with both mainhand and offhand attack still only reduce 3 sec.

[Archimtiros]

With that much haste you probably would start to use bloodthirst right after rampage, even if it would look like you are wasting enrage time. Rampage -> Bloodthirst -> fit 2 raging blows in before enrage falls off & then bloodthirst becomes available as soon as enrage drop. And by that time if the bloodthirst fails you will have enough rage to rampage again.

You already use Bloodthirst immediately after Rampage (if it's up) anyways, so little changes. Raging Blow is rather low on the priority list.

The proper solution would be to remove outburst, give the enrage effect to berserker rage & give us a real talent to work with. Nobody will like it if the enrage mastery gets removed from baseline berserker rage & we will be forced to pick outburst rather than it being an option.

I've been suggesting that since Outburst debuted and it hasn't happened yet, so don't expect it to.

But speaking of things that is unclear if its bugs or not. Have they said anything about how odyn's champion is supposed to interact with rampage? Currently one rampage under the odyn's champion effect reduces abilities cooldown by 15 sec, while other abilities with both mainhand and offhand attack still only reduce 3 sec.

Nothing has been said. Rarely is where bugs are concerned.

[Maltore]

They must have taken that part out. Either way, you're still going to fit 2 GCD's after it, so I suppose it doesn't really matter, outside of shifting the haste breakpoint for three GCDs inside Enrage (triggered by Rampage, not BT) to just over 26% haste (not accounting for lag).

Ok, I think I was computing the effect of haste wrong. I thought it was t=t_base*(1-h%). But it seems that it's t=t_base/(1+h%). So yeah, >25% with 0 lag.

Rampage has a 2s "cast" (or more accurately animation-lock), but it's also affected by Haste, which is why you're able to start an ability before the normal 2s is up.

I'm guessing that you can't use any abilities before Rampage finishes? So (without haste) there is 0.5 sec where your GCD is up, but you can't use another ability until Rampage has finished it's "animation-lock"?

[Deleted]

I wish I know what he did in the survival of the spec' Fury for PvP .

[Khelon]

Im guessing that you can't use any abilities before Rampage finishes? So (without haste) there is 0.5 sec where your GCD is up, but you can't use another ability until Rampage has finished it's "animation-lock"?

Rampage will start its 2 sec channel but will still have a gcd of 1.5 sec. After that 1.5 gcd is over, you will be able to use any other ability, but the rampage animation will still continue till its over.

But because Blizzard have stated before that its supposed to have 2 sec GCD, this will probably be fixed before release.

[Archimtiros]

Ok, I think I was computing the effect of haste wrong. I thought it was t=t_base*(1-h%). But it seems that it's t=t_base/(1+h%). So yeah, >25% with 0 lag.

Correct, CD=base/(1+haste/100).

Reasoning: It's poorly worded, but you're actually increasing the rate at which the cooldown refreshes, rather than reducing the cooldown outright. This is why 50% haste reduces the GCD to 1s (1.5/1.5=1) and 100% haste reduces the CD by half (1.5/2). If it were the other way around, 100% haste would reduce your CDs and GCD (if there weren't a 50% cap) to 0s.... which would be completely broken in the most awesome of ways.

In other words, 100% haste means you're refreshing the cooldown twice as fast, instead of reducing it by it's full value.

So in actuality, 50% haste only reduces a cooldown itself by about 33% as given by the formula 100(1-(1/1.50)).

The other formula is for actual reduction, you'd use that one for something like defensive cooldowns; (100dmg/(1-20%reduction/100)=80damage taken).

I'm guessing that you can't use any abilities before Rampage finishes? So (without haste) there is 0.5 sec where your GCD is up, but you can't use another ability until Rampage has finished it's "animation-lock"?

Well the way it's supposed to work is that it has it's own GCD, so the sweep you see on your ability bar would be accurate, but as Khelon has pointed out, it's iffy right now because it uses the standard 1.5s sweep. Broken things are broken.

[Deleted]

Fucking typical, I get given the go ahead to re-roll to Resto Druid for Legion and I'm having second thoughts about not raiding on the Warrior... This class has 2 specs that play like shit and I still can't abandon it!

[xMnCx]

Fucking typical, I get given the go ahead to re-roll to Resto Druid for Legion and I'm having second thoughts about not raiding on the Warrior... This class has 2 specs that play like shit and I still can't abandon it!

I felt the same way until I decided to stop raiding in wod when we started mythic progression since I was getting rekt by every other class (except for a fight or two).
Since hunter is getting a melee spec I'll be rerolling hunter forever and with that I'll have the versatility of switching between melee and ranged.
It took me a great deal to abandon the warrior since I have like 300+ days of /played with it, but I just cant take it anymore. I rolled a dwarf hunter and there is no going back.
It's sad because I liked being an ironclad juggernaut dealing tons of dmg but the only part left on that is "ironclad" no longer dealing dmg no longer a juggernaut.

[Bigbazz]

I felt the same way until I decided to stop raiding in wod when we started mythic progression since I was getting rekt by every other class (except for a fight or two).
Since hunter is getting a melee spec I'll be rerolling hunter forever and with that I'll have the versatility of switching between melee and ranged.
It took me a great deal to abandon the warrior since I have like 300+ days of /played with it, but I just cant take it anymore. I rolled a dwarf hunter and there is no going back.
It's sad because I liked being an ironclad juggernaut dealing tons of dmg but the only part left on that is "ironclad" no longer dealing dmg no longer a juggernaut.

Never forget my first raid kill with my current guild last year on Mythic Zakuun, I went in confident and comfortably came last on damage in the raid. Then I got congratulated on a well done 99% ranking, 100% for my ilvl bracket. One of those situations where you don't know whether to laugh or cry. But that said Warrior has been super competitive on a lot of fights in WOD and desired for progression for most of it, so it hasn't been so bad.

Who knows how numbers will pan out in Legion, currently Fury is only really behind Shadow Priests and Demon Hunters from my experience and Arms is up there too when RNG doesn't abuse you. But tuning still come it's anybodies guess.

[stevenho]

Bad rotations aside, numbers were indeed OK for progression, especially fast progression.
What sucked was that half way through gearing in each new raid, we got overtaken by most classes and then it was life at the bottom for the next several months.

[Artunias]

Bad rotations aside, numbers were indeed OK for progression, especially fast progression.
What sucked was that half way through gearing in each new raid, we got overtaken by most classes and then it was life at the bottom for the next several months.

That wasn't my experience. In HFC it was something of an issue due to the ring, but that was testament to the total shit design of the ring rather than the class.

It's pretty hard to argue too hard about performance for most of WoD, with the exception of a few encounters and a period post arms nerf and the ring becoming more powerful before we got buffed. And if you can be fucked to desync your ring you can compete for the top spot on almost every fight as one of the specs. (unless you're speed killing with mage stacking, but in normal farm clears it's fine)

Arguments have always been on gameplay.

[Toppy]

Yeah I wouldnt worry about PvE numbers, those are going to be continuously tuned up to and during release

Gameplay performance, pvp performance, now thats a whole different bag of worms.