Legion - Subtlety discussion

[itstheduke]

So, finally got the T20 4p and the playstyle blows. 16-18 seconds Nightblade means it has to be refreshed right before Symbols, but that's really awkward to do when Symbols is on a 25 second CD. Inevitably you either end up delaying Symbols (and making the 4p pretty useless), wasting a decent amount of energy or CP refreshing NB early, or just going into Symbols with <10 seconds on NB left and having to refresh it during the buff.

Maybe I just don't have enough practice yet, but it felt so shitty in raid that I actually went back to my T19 2p + T20 2p. 15 sec NB just doesn't feel realistically playable on boss fights, when there's typically downtime/soaking/target swapping, which all punish you heavily for delaying your combo just a few seconds.

I felt the same way when I got it, but it just took a little bit of adjusting. Outside the opener, what I started to change was saving that finality evis I get after every symbols/dfa/dance moment, pool a lil bit inbetween and usually end up using nightblade, and reapplying a finality nightblade on it. After all that symbols is off cooldown along with everything else and its rinse and repeat.

Also, have to keep it mind the energy gain the 4 set gives, it seems pretty negligible but it basically makes it impossible to not get your three shadow strikes along with an eviscerate after your dfa during dance, even if you fuck up pooling.

[Won7on]

pylle from future switched to 2p T19 and 4p T20 with bracers + vigor ring and did quite well.

Very interesting... I'll try that when I get the Vigor ring.

I simmed and my 2p+2p setup is currently 80k higher than my 4pc setup, so, yeah, no reason to do the 4p for now.

[Koji2k11]

hey guy's i have a quick question is it worth comming back for Legion or shall i just wait at this point for the next expansion ? sorry for being offtopic but i played sub alot during warlords and i'd like to know the current state for sub rogues

[broggernaut]

pylle from future switched to 2p T19 and 4p T20 with bracers + vigor ring and did quite well.

He did fairly equivalent to the burst build.

There are some very important pieces to this build, though. The first is 3 Gutripper Relics. The second is passive crit to 30% while maintaining high mastery.

The build and gear revolve around consistent crit on Eviscerate instead of huge burst inside a guaranteed window, as we sacrifice the legendary shoulders.

If you don't have the gear to accomplish the above, this is not a build for you.

[Deleted]

He did fairly equivalent to the burst build.

There are some very important pieces to this build, though. The first is 3 Gutripper Relics. The second is passive crit to 30% while maintaining high mastery.

The build and gear revolve around consistent crit on Eviscerate instead of huge burst inside a guaranteed window, as we sacrifice the legendary shoulders.

If you don't have the gear to accomplish the above, this is not a build for you.

This should be obvious

[RobertoCarlos]

This should be obvious

What is obvious to you might not be obvious to others. Your post literally contributes nothing where as the person you are trying to embarrass may have helped out others.

- - - Updated - - -

hey guy's i have a quick question is it worth comming back for Legion or shall i just wait at this point for the next expansion ? sorry for being offtopic but i played sub alot during warlords and i'd like to know the current state for sub rogues

Up to you. Legion is the same as any expansion. Be hard to get into a good mythic guild now but if you're not worried about that and want to heroic or pvp theres never a bad time to join.

Will need to catch up on getting legendary items but this is no different to the past where you needed legendary cloak or ring which took months to get

[Sirdangles]

Can anyone help me with my logs? I am parsing in the 90s overall, but I cannot seems to get out of the mid to high 60s for my ilvl. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

[Critical92]

Can anyone help me with my logs? I am parsing in the 90s overall, but I cannot seems to get out of the mid to high 60s for my ilvl. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

It often comes down to fight lenght, trinket procs, amounts of mechanics involved (goroth mythic: one orb and a high rank is gone) and luck with crits (it can happen that in the burst build most sod/dfa hits outside the mantle buff are noncrit) etc.

Just looking at your log and comparing it with the top 100 of the sub rogues in the 922-924 bracket shows that most fights were over before the 3 min mark.
Your fight was 3:25. The burst spec shines when the fights end after a well executed sod/dfa/shd phase.
There we have fight lenght.
WarcraftLogs says that you have a 820 ES relict, you should replace that with gutripper or shadowblades.
You used 1 Sod not followed by DfA. Try to optimize the burst phase a little bit better.
Nightblade uptime is 97.77%, that's ok but could be better.
You delayed goremaw too long in the opener. Try to follow riffs guide for a solid opener.
At 31 seconds in the fight you used 5 backstabs with shadowblades up. That is a loss of 4 cp.
You used your second pot to late and couldn't profit of the effect enough.
Try to use the second pot in a way that the buff expires when the boss is dead or almost dead. That is possible when you know your group well.
When you have many execute specs in the raid use the pot sooner. Try to look at which % your first pot expired and use that to somehow calculate your second pot usage.

Someone else may find more problems, but that was a quick look.

[Sirdangles]

It often comes down to fight lenght, trinket procs, amounts of mechanics involved (goroth mythic: one orb and a high rank is gone) and luck with crits (it can happen that in the burst build most sod/dfa hits outside the mantle buff are noncrit) etc.

Just looking at your log and comparing it with the top 100 of the sub rogues in the 922-924 bracket shows that most fights were over before the 3 min mark.
Your fight was 3:25. The burst spec shines when the fights end after a well executed sod/dfa/shd phase.
There we have fight lenght.
WarcraftLogs says that you have a 820 ES relict, you should replace that with gutripper or shadowblades.
You used 1 Sod not followed by DfA. Try to optimize the burst phase a little bit better.
Nightblade uptime is 97.77%, that's ok but could be better.
You delayed goremaw too long in the opener. Try to follow riffs guide for a solid opener.
At 31 seconds in the fight you used 5 backstabs with shadowblades up. That is a loss of 4 cp.
You used your second pot to late and couldn't profit of the effect enough.
Try to use the second pot in a way that the buff expires when the boss is dead or almost dead. That is possible when you know your group well.
When you have many execute specs in the raid use the pot sooner. Try to look at which % your first pot expired and use that to somehow calculate your second pot usage.

Someone else may find more problems, but that was a quick look.

Thank you! I know my potion choice was poor, it's something I definitely need to work on. The reason I backstabbed so much in the beginning was to line up SoD, ShD, and DfA. I will look into refining my opener. I was delaying it because I didn't want to waste CP by using Goremaw when I had ShadowBlades up and 4 CP.

[Critical92]

With t19 2 pc sometimes you come into the problem that sod has cd but comes off soon, nightblades duration is to high, but you have 5/6 cp and finality up.
Now you can waste cp/energy with doing backstabs or nothing OR you spend that eviscerate and have to sod/dfa without a finality.
It feels bad but it is better to not waste cp/energy and not delay the usage of sod too much. That means you have to sod/dfa without finality or delay it for 1 finisher + a few backstabs (i would only do that in a shadowblades phase or deayling sod when you can 5/6 cp shuriken storm + eviscerate)

[Deleted]

So with my rogue guild friend , we made the switch to sub this reset, yesterday was the first time on avatar as sub, fight went well and as it was normal we didnt pay much attention to recount until the end . But when we did , we noticed really low dps , he then went to check logs and saw that the eviscerate part of our dfa werent hiting despite the animation going off.
We were in the right mele corner of the boss , as we do as assa usually, Anybody already had this bug , know how to fix the problem?
Thanks in advance.

[Kwakman]

It happens sometimes when you have the Weaponmaster talent paired with DFA. So as a rule of thumb: if you take DFA always default to Master of Subtlety.

[Deleted]

So with my rogue guild friend , we made the switch to sub this reset, yesterday was the first time on avatar as sub, fight went well and as it was normal we didnt pay much attention to recount until the end . But when we did , we noticed really low dps , he then went to check logs and saw that the eviscerate part of our dfa werent hiting despite the animation going off.
We were in the right mele corner of the boss , as we do as assa usually, Anybody already had this bug , know how to fix the problem?
Thanks in advance.

yes, its a bug, happens to me often, even with MoS, just try to stay close to middle when you are about to use DFA.

[Deleted]

alright i ll try to stay mid next time i go there, and yes i use mos as well.
anyways thanks for the reply.

[shaunika123]

So with my rogue guild friend , we made the switch to sub this reset, yesterday was the first time on avatar as sub, fight went well and as it was normal we didnt pay much attention to recount until the end . But when we did , we noticed really low dps , he then went to check logs and saw that the eviscerate part of our dfa werent hiting despite the animation going off.
We were in the right mele corner of the boss , as we do as assa usually, Anybody already had this bug , know how to fix the problem?
Thanks in advance.

GO mfd ON avatar, it's better anyway :P

http://imgur.com/a/LN8bU

[Won7on]

Interesting. The new Riff opener has

Shadowstrike
Vanish
Shadowstrike
Death from Above, use Shadow Dance before the Eviscerate part hits

It used to be

Shadowstrike
Backstab
Vanish
Death from Above, use Shadow Dance before the Eviscerate part hits

I always did it the 2nd way, even mid-fight. But the new way does give an extra SS and seems to still cover the full Dance with the 100% crit buff. Better in theory, though it is possible to energy starve yourself if you don't have the T20 4p.

[RobertoCarlos]

Interesting. The new Riff opener has

Shadowstrike
Vanish
Shadowstrike
Death from Above, use Shadow Dance before the Eviscerate part hits

Wouldnt that be only 1sec of crit buff because you vanish after only 1 shadowstrike?? And you waste nightstalker buff on a shadowstrike? noty

[shaunika123]

Wouldnt that be only 1sec of crit buff because you vanish after only 1 shadowstrike?? And you waste nightstalker buff on a shadowstrike? noty

he means that you dont backstab after your first dance just vanish SS right away

[Critical92]

You change 1 backstab with an ns boosted shadowstrike. I think in ST that can be better than vanish + dfa.
In Aoe situations boosting the aoe part of dfa with ns could be a gain, vanish bug using aside.

[Won7on]

Wouldnt that be only 1sec of crit buff because you vanish after only 1 shadowstrike?? And you waste nightstalker buff on a shadowstrike? noty

No, the full opener is:


Shadowstrike
Nightblade (This will not be 5+ combo points, that is okay)
Symbols of Death (with T20 4 set bonus)
Shadow Dance
Shadowstrike
Symbols of Death (without T20 4 set bonus)
Shadowstrike
Eviscerate
---------
Shadowstrike
Vanish
Shadowstrike
Death from Above, use Shadow Dance before the Eviscerate part hits
Shadowstrike
Shadowstrike
Eviscerate
Shadowstrike

I was just referring to everything after the line. That part used to go SS BS Vanish+DFA+Dance, now it's SS Vanish+SS DFA+Dance.

- - - Updated - - -

You change 1 backstab with an ns boosted shadowstrike. I think in ST that can be better than vanish + dfa.
In Aoe situations boosting the aoe part of dfa with ns could be a gain, vanish bug using aside.

Does the NS buff not apply for the duration of Vanish? Only the first spell?