Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Deleted]

but you have shadowstep AND shadowstrike.

SNAP!!!

My bad, totally forgot that we got step back, guess my overall saltiness for the Legion changes got the better of me lol

[maddnesskhaz]

Just so people are aware:



This relates to the latest Alpha build up today, servers aren't up yet to test however.

[davesignal]

The new stuff's already filtering into the front page. Didn't somebody post an idea about finishers building up charges of Shadow Dance that you spend at your own discretion? Because that's what it looks like they're doing.

[KiwifruitOCE]

This is a step in the right direction but I'm still going to be mourning the loss of twist the blade.

I feel like shadow dance and vanish are going to feel exactly the same now though, if subterfuge ends up being the talent of choice.

[Ujio]

Symbols of Death (New) Invoke ancient symbols of power, increasing all damage done by the Rogue by 20% for 20 sec. Requires Stealth. Rogue - Subtlety Spec. 20 Energy. Instant.

Looks like the gameplay will be using dance charges to keep this going?

[shaunika123]

This is a step in the right direction but I'm still going to be mourning the loss of twist the blade.
.

how can you mourn the clunkiest, RNG iest, most counter intuitive rogue mechanic in the entire game?
even if the only change this exp was "no more sinister calling"
i'd be out of my mind excited.

[elfporn]

the set bonuses look sick for 'sin, iffy for sub though, remains to be seen how often SS will get used or the chance to proc from that 4p

i don't see anything definitively aoe except maybe second shuriken? it doesn't say specifically that it would proc a second shuriken storm, just a second...shuriken....

[KiwifruitOCE]

how can you mourn the clunkiest, RNG iest, most counter intuitive rogue mechanic in the entire game?
even if the only change this exp was "no more sinister calling"
i'd be out of my mind excited.

Because it added a lot of decision making to the spec and rewarded you well for making the right choice. Some people like that sort of thing in their rotation.

[Jaronicity]

the set bonuses look sick for 'sin, iffy for sub though, remains to be seen how often SS will get used or the chance to proc from that 4p

i don't see anything definitively aoe except maybe second shuriken? it doesn't say specifically that it would proc a second shuriken storm, just a second...shuriken....

I think maybe with the way they changed SD you will still be able to SS in little bursts with 4pc ideally to be able to maintain charges more frequently so you can enter stealth more often. If SD is 4 seconds you can, in theory, get off 4 SS's (moar S's plx), on average 2 of those 4 will grant an additional point to use a finisher (like Symbols of Death) in hopes of proccing Deepening Shadows charges. It will be interesting to see how this plays. Still undecided on Sub or Ass for Legion.

Also, yes, liking Assassination bonuses, but sad it was not on the list of released specs .

[maddnesskhaz]

I think maybe with the way they changed SD you will still be able to SS in little bursts with 4pc ideally to be able to maintain charges more frequently so you can enter stealth more often. If SD is 4 seconds you can, in theory, get off 4 SS's (moar S's plx), on average 2 of those 4 will grant an additional point to use a finisher (like Symbols of Death) in hopes of proccing Deepening Shadows charges. It will be interesting to see how this plays. Still undecided on Sub or Ass for Legion.

Also, yes, liking Assassination bonuses, but sad it was not on the list of released specs .

Symbols of Death is just an on-use ability that requires Stealth with no cooldown or CP requirement. It also breaks Stealth.

Shadow Dance starts with 3 charges (at the moment) and functions like live Dance whereby you can use Shadowstrike multiple times.

My Sub Rogue is currently stuck from trying to zone over to the Shrine because trying to load in crashes the client. So that's about as much as I've worked out so far in the 30 seconds of combat I've had.

They also added a new quest after the Sub Rogue artifact line with Vanessa VanCleef (I'm assuming it's new at least, I didn't notice it previously).

[Sharkcrap]

Symbols of Death is just an on-use ability that requires Stealth with no cooldown or CP requirement. It also breaks Stealth.

Does it break the stealth from shadow dance?

[maddnesskhaz]

No, Dance behaves like it does on live; you can use multiple abilities for the duration, hopefully i'll get my char working in the morning to play around with it properly.

[Kourvith]

Holy shit, the return to 1 min cd plus potential bonus charges on finishers is absolutely genius. Now I'm really excited.

Name changed from "Shadow Dance" to "Deepening Shadows". Your finishing moves have a 5% chance per combo point to grant an additional charge of Shadow Dance. Rogue - Subtlety Spec.

+

Shadow Dance : Allows use of all Stealth abilities and grants all the combat benefits of Stealth for 4 sec. Effect not broken from taking damage or attacking. Rogue - Subtlety Spec. Instant. 60 sec cooldown.

This is exactly the kind of control and variety I was wanting. So now we have an active, stackable, on-demand SD, with 25% chance of free SD on finishers (30% with Deeper Strategem). They reduced duration to 4 sec, but 25% is pretty awesome anyway. We'll definitely have far more SD uptime than in WoD.

Also, it specifies "and grants all the combat benefits of Stealth ". Would that mean Tier 2 will finally work with SD ?

[Deleted]

3 charges, 25% chance to have a charge on finisher, and we get blind back? So much looove

[Todesbote]

This is exactly the kind of control and variety I was wanting. So now we have an active, stackable, on-demand SD, with 25% chance of free SD on finishers (30% with Deeper Strategem). They reduced duration to 4 sec, but 25% is pretty awesome anyway. We'll definitely have far more SD uptime than in WoD.

Now they just have to tune it so that using Shadow Strike from Shadow Dance is actually rewarding. Right now it does less damage than Gloomblade and does not apply Find Weakness (scrapped) or anything else. Don't get me wrong Shadow Dance with charges feels sooooo much better than just a passive and the Symbols of Death alone make it worth using Shadow Dance every 20 seconds but... something is missing. I don't feel the power while I'm in Shadow Dance. They should either make Shadow Strike hit really really hard compared to Gloomblade (which should be baseline... come on Blizzard really nobody on this planet likes the restructions of Backstab in 2016) or bring back some interaction to Shadow Strike like Find Weakness. In short: give Shadow Strike some meaning please.

Also one remaining issues is Shadow Blades. It is uninteresting and doesn't fit the spec at all. Get rid of it, give us something else or redesign it. In a spec where CP generation is so high that the value of CPs is reduced significantly it doesn't feel good to have a 3-min CD that will double our CP generation for 15 seconds. If it stays like it is we will waste half of those CPs during Shadow Blades anyways. Please fix.

[Zoulis]

I can see expending a stack of Shadow Dance to keep Symbol of Death up every 20seconds and then keeping the rest, which should be 3 again at some point during those 20seconds due to the procc, while also trying to never overcap.
And then you get to choose how much Shadow Dance you want to use... DID I JUST SAY CHOOSE HOW MUCH SHADOW DANCE I WANT TO USE ?! thanks blizz. And because Deepening Shadows would still be in effect, we'd also get to prolong our dance while we're in it (I guess there'll be a pandemic mechanic or sth, same as SnD now)

Not sure how it's going to work out but this is difeffinately a step in the right direction, to be honest all I want now is a more interactive artifact ability, not something that just deals a million dmg.

[Christhammer]

Love the new changes! Shadow Blades from 5 sec to 15 sec. 3 charges of Shadow Dance (although very short duration). Symbols of death seems interesting aswell.

Oh, and they changed Enveloping Shadows. Looks great now!

And we get blind back!

[Kourvith]

There's also an artifact talent that seems to remain underestimed : Faster Than Light. (after sprinting without taking damage for 3 seconds, you vanish).

This litterally means a free vanish (and every buff/talent/synergy that goes with stealth) every 30 sec. On top of the new stacked SDance, and some new stealth openers other than Shadowstrike, I think we're at quite a good spot ... thoughts ?

[Deleted]

PvP Perspective.

Only thing i don't like about the new dance is that it is now on the GCD, so its basically 3s duration, not great, that extra second is a light year of time considering the overall duration.

If Symbols of Death breaks stealth(intended i wonder?? Hope not), then Subterfuge is a must if you want it rolling when you open, assuming its on the GCD. Seems a bit counter-intuitive that an ability that's only usable from stealth that does no damage but breaks stealth when no other abilities that function the same(SnD, Feint, Bomb, blind, tricks) don't break stealth themselves............

Enveloping Shadows looks really nice, you can open and burst then spend your last 5cp on this moving into your sustained phase and it will allow faster pooling since you can then spend 50% less energy getting back to 5cp for your next burst window, i like it alot.

Phantom Assassin- 30% damage is no joke and with the charge system, increasing dance cd to 2mins doesn't seem and issue if you get good rng. But that dance is on the GCD now really reduces the potency of this talent, take dance off the GCD and this talent could be the goto.

Thief Bargin - I kinda like the idea behind this, playing the glass cannon, will remain to see how much it increases your damage before we can know if its worth it. Vanish on a 30s cd looks fun tho, love the idea of opening with massive damage and vanishing off with a very short time before i can do it again, will be strong in bgs.

Shadowy duel - Now this talent is interesting, the different applications you can use it for are amazing. For example, its a bomb extension for RMD, bursting during bomb and then taking your target into another 6s where the healer cannot target him, now it has access to stealth its a 6s dance also, very very powerful. Or it can be used to extend cc on a healer coming out of a long chain, once you've dumped your damage take the healer into the duel for a 6s free extension and then Cheap/Garrote/Kidney on the way out. Just two simple ways to use the talent. There are so many more, really really excited about this one, just hope it makes it live.

[Zoulis]

Hmmm yeh it'd be better if it was off the gcd, but that's changeable. It's the first build they gave us the new Dance so it might be in future plans. I really hope it is too, cause CDs on the gcd feel abit clunky