Legion - Subtlety discussion

[elfporn]

Example B is how current charge based systems work currently and I think it is unlikely Blizzard will build a modified charge system just for rogues. Also example A as you note mostly defeats the purpose of a charge system. The entire point of a charge system is so you can hold CDs without being punished for it.

Someone clarified earlier that each charge has it's own 1 minute cd, as well as it's own hidden gcd (to keep from using multiple charges at the same time)

Is this the case? Doubt has been sown....

[Smaxy]

Someone clarified earlier that each charge has it's own 1 minute cd, as well as it's own hidden gcd (to keep from using multiple charges at the same time)

Is this the case? Doubt has been sown....

Yeah that's what I based my question on. I have yet to get past a minute without crashing on Alpha I'll try again later. I hope it functions like Example B as Example A creates problematic gameplay IMO.

[elfporn]

example B seems the worse of the two to me, first is the 1minute cooldown, but the second charge is 2 minutes? and the third 3 minutes? no thanks.

example A provides more versatility with the rotation, more choice in cd use, more uptime on SoD, etc. And is also more in line with the dev's desire to have sub be a more stealth/shadow based spec.

need more details from alpha, hopefully the crashes are fixed soon

[Smaxy]

example B seems the worse of the two to me, first is the 1minute cooldown, but the second charge is 2 minutes? and the third 3 minutes? no thanks.

example A provides more versatility with the rotation, more choice in cd use, more uptime on SoD, etc. And is also more in line with the dev's desire to have sub be a more stealth/shadow based spec.

need more details from alpha, hopefully the crashes are fixed soon

You are flat out incorrect.

Remember that after mechanics are decided, then numbers are ironed out. As example A gives more uptime of Shadow Dance, all things equal, the coefficients of other abilities to go along with example A would be tuned lower to put them where Blizzard wants them than example B.

And it actually offers much reduced versatility. To you versatility may mean "uptime on a stationary training dummy" but in a mythic raiding setting, or actually.. Any setting..., example A is horrible; and balancing us around the assumption of having uptime associated with example A puts us in a bad spot. With example A, we can't adjust our charges based around environmental factors or high burst phases where we would want to save the charges.. As we are sacrificing future recharges.

Think of it this way, you are encouraged to use SD charges as soon as you get them in example A; regardless of stage of the fight or environmental factors, because holding on is a waste of a future recharge. The point of a charge system is to offer choice and be able to pool resources. A traditional charge system is much better for gameplay... Numbers come later.

Keep in mind that we also have the chance to generate a charge from our finishers. What I imagine a Rogue doing optimally with Example B is sitting around 1 or 2 charges, and whenever you get a proc, you use it. If you were sitting at 1 proc, you have some time to plan it out as your third charge is still recharging, if you were at 2 charges, you use it immediately so the timer can start ticking on the next recharge. You empty all charges during things like lust, when an add needs to die, enrage, or when boss takes increased damage. Something like that.

Also note that we aren't restricted to 3 charges and 1min recharge. We could end up with 4 charges 1 min recharge or 3 charges 45 sec recharge. The important thing is how the charge system works. Things like number of charges, recharge rate, and proc on Deepening Shadows can be adjusted later on.

[elfporn]

ill grant the above, those were just my thoughts on the examples presented.

i don't think it will play out like B though. their attitude still seems to be more SD is better, our new metrics will probably end up being SoD uptime and number of SD uses.

Using our cooldowns as they come up isn't anything new either.

Ex A you want to keep SD on cd, ex B allows you to hold back charges, is that essentially correct?

Ex A would probably be ok if SD wasn't thought of as a specific dps cooldown, but rather part of the rotation.

i need to read that writeup posted earlier

[Deleted]

Only variant B exists in wow for all specs. Variant A is just 3 different cooldowns (x, y, z, while x = y = z, but still different variables).

[Smaxy]

ill grant the above, those were just my thoughts on the examples presented.

i don't think it will play out like B though. their attitude still seems to be more SD is better, our new metrics will probably end up being SoD uptime and number of SD uses.

Using our cooldowns as they come up isn't anything new either.

Ex A you want to keep SD on cd, ex B allows you to hold back charges, is that essentially correct?

Ex A would probably be ok if SD wasn't thought of as a specific dps cooldown, but rather part of the rotation.

i need to read that writeup posted earlier

Yeah Ex A you would burn through charges as you got them where as Ex B you could pool.

Again, I haven't gotten to see how it recharges Bc I kept crashing. I'll check after work today and verify. Ex B is how charge systems have always worked in wow but apparently it worked differently on Alpha. We'll see.

[elfporn]

Only variant B exists in wow for all specs. Variant A is just 3 different cooldowns (x, y, z, while x = y = z, but still different variables).

DK runes works as Ex B.

[Deleted]

DK runes works as Ex B.

Runes are separated from each other. Furthermore, you can't "use" rune as cooldown. This discussion about recharges doesn't make any sense.

[Smaxy]

Okay, case closed. It works as I thought it would, and as I thought it should: Example B.

The poster who brought that up earlier likely thought it was that way because he wasn't used to gaining charges of Shadow Dance on a proc, but that's from Deepening Shadows not from a different charge mechanic. If you go down to 0 charges and leave combat, charges are re-filled as you would expect them to be.

[ainurr]

My question is, how many charges can you stack and how much time can you stack them?
For example, in a raid, stack 8 charges in trash pulls and then boss, will they reset to 3? Or you will have 8 charges

[Lorentz]

My question is, how many charges can you stack and how much time can you stack them?
For example, in a raid, stack 8 charges in trash pulls and then boss, will they reset to 3? Or you will have 8 charges

3 charges max. There is no "time you can stack them". It's just usual charges mechanic

[ainurr]

ok, thanks

[Emophia]

So we got hunger for blood back? But instead of rupture we use shadow dance? Woooo...

I preferred find weakness.

[shaunika123]

So we got hunger for blood back? But instead of rupture we use shadow dance? Woooo...

I preferred find weakness.

we'll still have "find weakness"
the new opener "symbols of death" is basically that

[Emophia]

we'll still have "find weakness"
the new opener "symbols of death" is basically that

Find weakness is much cooler than wooo 20% damage on a button press.

They removed hfb for a reason, bringing it back is going so backwards.

[elfporn]

we'll still have "find weakness"
the new opener "symbols of death" is basically that

Yep. And despite all feelings of love for FW (lol) the shift to shadow damage necessitates the removal of FW in favor of SoD.

Are there any simcraft tools or similar that can map out legion rotations yet? Or am i jumpin' the gun

Impatient as i am, perhaps i should wait till atleast shadow tech is working....though HaT could be a stand-in

[shaunika123]

Find weakness is much cooler than wooo 20% damage on a button press.

They removed hfb for a reason, bringing it back is going so backwards.

i didnt mind HFB
and anyway, what makes find weakness cool?
you'd spam ambush either way.

[KiwifruitOCE]

Shadow dance giving back 100 energy (with relentless strikes talent) is stupid. It promotes a braindead playstyle of mashing your spenders because you want to be low energy at all times.

The idea of pooling energy while you wait for shadow techniques to fill a 5th combo point to minimise rng loss of combo points won't be a thing if pooling energy is a bad thing, so anticipation is going to be required to catch your shadow techniques combo points. I've yet to see shadow techniques in action though so maybe I am getting ahead of myself.

I would like to see them remove the on use energy return and shift that power somewhere else in the spec. Then at least we will have some sort of pooling gameplay.

[Deleted]

we'll still have "find weakness"
the new opener "symbols of death" is basically that

I disagree.

Find weakness is much powerful debuff with 2x shorter duration and 2x stronger dps increase. It makes our stealth special moment of high damage.

But Symbols of death? We will probably have to keep it up almost 100% of time. It doesn't makes our stealth moment of high damage, it makes it moment when we boost our damage outside stealth.

As I said before: affliction warlocks already have this thing. Each 30 seconds they spend randomly generated (even similar resources system) souls shards for soulburn: haunt. And this is boring.