Legion - Subtlety discussion

[defury]

If they don't fix it till August 30th someone is going to make an addon for it

You can't make an addon for it, this is the major issue. I've already tried, Shadowdance is not recognized as a trigger for any part of the API, it's literally impossible.

id rather take live sub-rogue over legion sub-rogue. its going to get changed a lot till then.

The spec isn't getting changed I'm just venting tbh the devs are really just doing their own thing this time and I guess that's cool. At least they are doing things with conviction unlike other expansions.

[panzaghor]

You can't make an addon for it, this is the major issue. I've already tried, Shadowdance is not recognized as a trigger for any part of the API, it's literally impossible.



The spec isn't getting changed I'm just venting tbh the devs are really just doing their own thing this time and I guess that's cool. At least they are doing things with conviction unlike other expansions.

It looks like this is going to be another fucked up expansion for subtlety rogues . . .

[Soisoisoi]

It looks like this is going to be another fucked up expansion for subtlety rogues . . .

I can't stand playing Sub due to the clunkiness of Shadowstrike/Backstab (and their lack of stance/action bar). Definitely needs to change but we've been saying forever (my first beta post was "Build 21466 -- 13-Apr") and I've seen zero feedback from the Devs on it. I think literally the only thing we could hope to do would be spam the fuck out of devs. Not that I would ever condone such a thing...

[defury]

I can't stand playing Sub due to the clunkiness of Shadowstrike/Backstab (and their lack of stance/action bar). Definitely needs to change but we've been saying forever (my first beta post was "Build 21466 -- 13-Apr") and I've seen zero feedback from the Devs on it. I think literally the only thing we could hope to do would be spam the fuck out of devs. Not that I would ever condone such a thing...

https://twitter.com/WarcraftDevs/sta...39578286473216

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...46399189565440

I personally refuse to play sub unless its fixed.

[Deleted]

Just because its not the way you are rigidly fixed into playing, doesnt mean its clunky. I play sub both live and beta, the only change is 2 different keys for shadowstrike and backstab, omg literally unplayable.

[Deleted]

Just because its not the way you are rigidly fixed into playing, doesnt mean its clunky. I play sub both live and beta, the only change is 2 different keys for shadowstrike and backstab, omg literally unplayable.

Its not about a fixation and not really up to debate. It is "clunky". Thats a fact. You enjoying broken spec isnt gonna change it.

[Deleted]

Its not about a fixation and not really up to debate. It is "clunky". Thats a fact. You enjoying broken spec isnt gonna change it.

What´s broken about it? Because I have 2 keys for each ability SS and BS, everything stealth based is on another bar, and everything works PERFECTLY. You have few abilities now anyway, i dont even need modifier macros like i do in live. There is nothing clunky about this spec.

Oh and btw, you can have shadowstrike and backstab on same button with modifier macro, so you press alt+button for backstab for example.

[Critical92]

What´s broken about it? Because I have 2 keys for each ability SS and BS, everything stealth based is on another bar, and everything works PERFECTLY. You have few abilities now anyway, i dont even need modifier macros like i do in live. There is nothing clunky about this spec.

Oh and btw, you can have shadowstrike and backstab on same button with modifier macro, so you press alt+button for backstab for example.

That is the definition of clunky. On live you can have Backstab and Ambush on the same key because stancemacros or barpaging. You can have all the important abilitys on perfectly reachable places without the use of modifiers like alt/shift/etc. I can't imagine someone who likes to press alt+2 everytime just to backstab, because shadowstrike is on 2 itself, while shadowstrike is just a modified backstab and needs stealth.
Maybe barpaging is not for everybody but stancemacros should be possible. Then everybody can play and arrange his/her keys in the optimal way. That would please everybody.

[Deleted]

everything stealth based is on another bar, and everything works PERFECTLY.

Shadowstrike is stealth based or not in your world?

[Soisoisoi]

https://twitter.com/WarcraftDevs/sta...39578286473216

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...46399189565440

I personally refuse to play sub unless its fixed.

Wow I hadn't seen those. I guess that's me never playing my favourite spec of literally the only class I can stand playing now due to GCD/APM changes of other classes (making them slow as fuck). I guess I'll stick to spamming RtB until I stop hitting like a wet noodle or afflic-rogue with zero control. Fun.

[Hobbes0773]

If they don't fix it till August 30th someone is going to make an addon for it

You cannot fix this with an addon. Not available in the API. Only way to "fix" ShD paging is to use keyboard macros that aren't involved with wow (i.e. bind 2 keys to the same button on your keyboard, which will attempt to trigger both Shadowstrike and Backstab).

[elfporn]

What´s broken about it? Because I have 2 keys for each ability SS and BS, everything stealth based is on another bar, and everything works PERFECTLY. You have few abilities now anyway, i dont even need modifier macros like i do in live. There is nothing clunky about this spec.

Oh and btw, you can have shadowstrike and backstab on same button with modifier macro, so you press alt+button for backstab for example.

But it doesnt work perfectly. There are atleast a few bugs because of no stance swap.

Overwhelming feedback supports the change being a bad gameplay feel.

The effects on pvp will be huge, as pvpers do more than shadowstrike during dance.

And as for celestalons excuse that we just dont have many stealth abilities - we lost garrote and aoe stealth and gained sod. So we have ss, sod, distract, sap, pickpocket, cheapshot, and every single other rogue ability is usable in stealth too.

Thats not much of a difference from the past ten years, actually, theres almost no difference.

Separate keys for bs and ss will affect min/maxxers too.

[Menz]

I still cannot believe they have not yet provided a separate bar for shadow dance. The amount of negative feedback on this is very huge. In the official forums you cannot find a single page without SD bar comment.

I guess there is a technical reason behind it, and it seems like someone screwed up big time.

Anyways, I will join the rest of you with 'not touching my rogue till it's fixed'.

[Tellof]

I can't believe you're all complaining about this so hard... it's not like there are 2 versions for 5 diff skills that all depend on stealth/normal... that I could understand... but we're talking about 1 extra button here. This doesn't even take into consideration the fact that in a normal burst situation you're ALWAYS going to SS during SD, which turns it into a very simple keystroke pattern that you can commit to muscle memory in all of 5 minutes... I know because I did it. The game shouldn't play itself for you just because you want to stick 2 skills on the same button and call it efficiency, because it's not, and it's the same reason you can't just make a very clever macro to play your entire rotation for you in 1 button.

Everyone freaks out about pruning abilities and "dumbing down" of the game, and then they turn around and call Sub unplayable because of a very simple mechanic, and they wonder why Blizzard isn't kissing their feet for more precious feedback. smh.

[elfporn]

I can't believe you're all complaining about this so hard... it's not like there are 2 versions for 5 diff skills that all depend on stealth/normal... that I could understand... but we're talking about 1 extra button here. This doesn't even take into consideration the fact that in a normal burst situation you're ALWAYS going to SS during SD, which turns it into a very simple keystroke pattern that you can commit to muscle memory in all of 5 minutes... I know because I did it. The game shouldn't play itself for you just because you want to stick 2 skills on the same button and call it efficiency, because it's not, and it's the same reason you can't just make a very clever macro to play your entire rotation for you in 1 button.

Everyone freaks out about pruning abilities and "dumbing down" of the game, and then they turn around and call Sub unplayable because of a very simple mechanic, and they wonder why Blizzard isn't kissing their feet for more precious feedback. smh.

Have you ever done any sort of serious pvp as sub? If so, you've been doign it wrong. The change is huge for pvp. Massive even.

Shadow dance isn't a burst tool in pvp, it's a control tool. Now think about that for a moment.

[Tellof]

Have you ever done any sort of serious pvp as sub? If so, you've been doign it wrong. The change is huge for pvp. Massive even.

Shadow dance isn't a burst tool in pvp, it's a control tool. Now think about that for a moment.

I have Bartender installed with paging completely turned off, and keybinds for whatever I need. I make stealth requirement abilities a decision in my head and not a mindless mechanic on my bars, so I'm not victim to this silly crap with Blizzard being fickle with how they want to run their game.

Is it an adjustment for people? Yeah. Is it the end of the world? No. If someone is as serious with Sub PVP as you're suggesting then they shouldn't be struggling with something so relatively trivial.

[shaunika123]

I have Bartender installed with paging completely turned off, and keybinds for whatever I need. I make stealth requirement abilities a decision in my head and not a mindless mechanic on my bars, so I'm not victim to this silly crap with Blizzard being fickle with how they want to run their game.

Is it an adjustment for people? Yeah. Is it the end of the world? No. If someone is as serious with Sub PVP as you're suggesting then they shouldn't be struggling with something so relatively trivial.

are you payed by blizzard or something? how is it even remotely okay that you need 2 binds for the EXACT SAME fucking spell, that we've had since 2008

[elfporn]

I have Bartender installed with paging completely turned off, and keybinds for whatever I need. I make stealth requirement abilities a decision in my head and not a mindless mechanic on my bars, so I'm not victim to this silly crap with Blizzard being fickle with how they want to run their game.

Is it an adjustment for people? Yeah. Is it the end of the world? No. If someone is as serious with Sub PVP as you're suggesting then they shouldn't be struggling with something so relatively trivial.

And here folks is the casual pvper, where a 1sec or less response time isn't the deciding faCTOR.

[Ytar]

I dont get the outrage aswell.
Many of you probably dont know this. If you have Ambush and Backstab on the same key then, if you activate Shadowdance and then start to spam ambush key, you might actualy use backstab instead. This was caused by server lag, due to whole bar switching.
I agree that sub feels bad right now, but not because of stance bar...
It feels bad because Shadow dance isnt big d*ck DPS cooldown. Your whole guild knew when you pressed that shadowdance, because you kicked asses. And you felt great too, or at least I did. Preparing to get as juicy Shadow dances as possible was awesome and then the moment came and you was hitting like truck with ambush.
PTR version just feels bad because Shadowdance is just too common. You still need to prepare for it and if you do, it just doesnt feel that rewarding.
Other reason is, that nightblade (new rupture) is too short. I feel more like "affliction rogue", because all I do is refresh nightblade. On the other hand the change that you dont need to be behind target for backstab is great. It was reason why I hated Velhari. In third phase you just had to use hemo, because you had to be stacked with the rest of the raid in front of her.

[shaunika123]

I dont get the outrage aswell.
Many of you probably dont know this. If you have Ambush and Backstab on the same key then, if you activate Shadowdance and then start to spam ambush key, you might actualy use backstab instead. This was caused by server lag, due to whole bar switching.
I agree that sub feels bad right now, but not because of stance bar...
It feels bad because Shadow dance isnt big d*ck DPS cooldown. Your whole guild knew when you pressed that shadowdance, because you kicked asses. And you felt great too, or at least I did. Preparing to get as juicy Shadow dances as possible was awesome and then the moment came and you was hitting like truck with ambush.
PTR version just feels bad because Shadowdance is just too common. You still need to prepare for it and if you do, it just doesnt feel that rewarding.
Other reason is, that nightblade (new rupture) is too short. I feel more like "affliction rogue", because all I do is refresh nightblade. On the other hand the change that you dont need to be behind target for backstab is great. It was reason why I hated Velhari. In third phase you just had to use hemo, because you had to be stacked with the rest of the raid in front of her.

a: you still dont get the problem
b: no it's not that shadow dance isnt a big dps cooldown, it's the uncomfortableness and senslessness to having to use 2 different binds for the exact same thing
c: if you cant backstab on velhari you're doing something wrong, i never had a problem with it.

i actually like most of the new sub, i like the frequent shadow dances, i like shadowstrike, i like SoD way more than i liked slice and dice, but it just doesnt feel good to play with no stealth bar on dance, it doesnt sound like a big deal, but it is, it just doesnt flow well, it's uncomfortable and awkward, ive been a sub main since vanilla and now im seriously contemplating rolling assa because it's just way more fun now.