Poll: Do you want Shadowstep back?

  1. #3801
    Quote Originally Posted by Notter View Post
    people here are saying that your finishers refresh the SD cooldown quickly
    but from my experience, it's about 2-3 finishers to refresh a SD charge, and that leaves me just backstabbing a lot.
    and i don't know where exactly am i fucking up.
    There are 2 ways you can go. Either use Vigor, which is simulated to have the highest DPS, and which results in the rotation you're seeing where it might need 3 finishers to refresh ShD, but you have more finishers more quickly overall. Or use DS, where it's basically always predictably 2 finishers. The latter results in a more stable rotation but less flexibility.

    Even with DS it won't be completely stable since we haven't accounted for Vanish uses (or Goremaw's Bite when we get the artifact) but it's certainly a lot more proactive and less reactive (as is suggested by the name of the talent!).

  2. #3802
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Notter View Post
    I'm having issues learning the opener/rotation with subtlety (on live, ilvl 690 currently)
    Does anyone have a video guide, that shows the timing of the abilities used?

    I'm following the guide on icy-veins.
    and I know you're not supposed to go below 2 Shadow Dance ready (not sure why though :x)

    people here are saying that your finishers refresh the SD cooldown quickly
    but from my experience, it's about 2-3 finishers to refresh a SD charge, and that leaves me just backstabbing a lot.
    and i don't know where exactly am i fucking up.
    Are you using Master of Shadows? For me that made a huge difference. 30 energy everytime you vanish or shadow dance is a positive feedback loop - I never have to wait and can constantly spam attack keys, which gets me to finishers quicker, which refreshes shadow dance quicker, which gives me another 30 energy. When I do hit a lull, I vanish to kickstart the cycle all over again.

    I don't claim to be elite, and others may be getting even better results with a different build, but I can say this build has been fun for me to play:
    http://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/rogue/subtlety/MZN0

    "I Am Vengeance. I Am The Night. I Am Felfáádaern!"

  3. #3803
    Quote Originally Posted by DarklingThrush View Post
    Are you using Master of Shadows? For me that made a huge difference. 30 energy everytime you vanish or shadow dance is a positive feedback loop - I never have to wait and can constantly spam attack keys, which gets me to finishers quicker, which refreshes shadow dance quicker, which gives me another 30 energy. When I do hit a lull, I vanish to kickstart the cycle all over again.

    I don't claim to be elite, and others may be getting even better results with a different build, but I can say this build has been fun for me to play:
    http://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/rogue/subtlety/MZN0
    I'll try going with Vigor instead of DS and see how that goes.
    Because right now what you're describing is not what i'm experiencing.

    that's also why i'm hoping to find a video guide, so i could see exactly what's going on, and the timings of abilities

  4. #3804
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Notter View Post
    I'll try going with Vigor instead of DS and see how that goes.
    Because right now what you're describing is not what i'm experiencing.

    that's also why i'm hoping to find a video guide, so i could see exactly what's going on, and the timings of abilities
    Yep. DS may result in harder hits, and which talent does more dps is always subject to tuning, but Vigor definitely contributes to more fluid game play. You start with a bigger energy pool and recharge faster.

    "I Am Vengeance. I Am The Night. I Am Felfáádaern!"

  5. #3805
    If vigor is theoretically close to DS, I'd much rather take Vigor. It definitely makes it easier to pool for shadowdances and not waste energy.

    Remind me again why it was necessary for subtlety to have Shadows of Death? whups symbols of death lul
    Last edited by kindath; 2016-07-24 at 10:32 PM.

  6. #3806
    Quote Originally Posted by kindath View Post
    If vigor is theoretically close to DS, I'd much rather take Vigor. It definitely makes it easier to pool for shadowdances and not waste energy.

    Remind me again why it was necessary for subtlety to have Shadows of Death?
    what is shadows of death?

    if you mean symbols then it's necessary so a: it has a more fitting replacement for SnD and b: it makes the using of shadow dance more engaging and not just "spam on cooldown"

  7. #3807
    Quote Originally Posted by shaunika123 View Post

    if you mean symbols then it's necessary so a: it has a more fitting replacement for SnD and b: it makes the using of shadow dance more engaging and not just "spam on cooldown"
    Now that's a sentence i need more explanation to. Because this one reeks of advertisement bullshit and filler words.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
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  8. #3808
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Now that's a sentence i need more explanation to. Because this one reeks of advertisement bullshit and filler words.
    okay then: it's in the game to make your gameplay experience strictly worse, and borderline unbearable, blizzard hates you and every rogue and just wants you to reroll DH so he put this AWFUL AWFUL ability in the game that you have to press once every 40 seconds, which completely ruins any enjoyment of the class

    better?

  9. #3809
    It's a boring maintenance buff that drains energy when you need energy most and it still doesn't make shadow dance more engaging than 'spam on cooldown.'

    Why does sub need a SnD replacement? And if it does, why not a finisher? I can't think of a single problem that symbols of death fixes other than 'we need an extra button.' It doesn't create ramp-up time, it doesn't add an interesting mechanic, it just forces you to pool a bit more energy every 35 seconds.

  10. #3810
    Quote Originally Posted by shaunika123 View Post
    okay then: it's in the game to make your gameplay experience strictly worse, and borderline unbearable, blizzard hates you and every rogue and just wants you to reroll DH so he put this AWFUL AWFUL ability in the game that you have to press once every 40 seconds, which completely ruins any enjoyment of the class

    better?
    one of your posts needs a sarcasm tag and i don't know which.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  11. #3811
    High Overlord panzaghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    one of your posts needs a sarcasm tag and i don't know which.
    The second one

  12. #3812
    Just be thankful it isnt called "shadows of death"....class fantasy a ho!

    Strike from the Shadows
    Enveloping Shadows
    Master of Shadows
    Shadowstep
    Shadowstrike
    Shadow techniques
    Shadow Dance
    Deepening Shadows
    Cloak of Shadows
    Shadowblades

    such class fantasy much wow

  13. #3813
    Quote Originally Posted by kindath View Post
    Why does sub need a SnD replacement?
    Because otherwise it would be stupidly faceroll.

    Quote Originally Posted by kindath View Post
    And if it does, why not a finisher?
    Because we use our finishers to actually deal damage. Damage which gets boosted by our mastery. We don't want to have finishers that don't do damage and aren't boosted by our mastery, that's the kind of brain dead thinking behind Enveloping Shadows.

  14. #3814
    Quote Originally Posted by shaunika123 View Post
    what is shadows of death?

    if you mean symbols then it's necessary so a: it has a more fitting replacement for SnD and b: it makes the using of shadow dance more engaging and not just "spam on cooldown"
    SoD is just hunger for blood 2.0. You can't compare a flat damage modifier to a haste modifier. Amazing that rogues are still sticking up for the horrible sub changes.

    Sub went from one of the most deep dps specs in the game to being a 4 button arcade game. We got the wotlk-arcane treatment. It's just depressing and is making me consider a refund on legion.

  15. #3815
    Quote Originally Posted by Celfydd View Post
    Because we use our finishers to actually deal damage. Damage which gets boosted by our mastery. We don't want to have finishers that don't do damage and aren't boosted by our mastery, that's the kind of brain dead thinking behind Enveloping Shadows.
    Slice and dice scaled with mastery.

  16. #3816
    Quote Originally Posted by kindath View Post
    Slice and dice scaled with mastery.
    It wouldn't now though, would it?

  17. #3817
    Blademaster Alex Gaigen's Avatar
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    I like shadowstep how it is currently

  18. #3818
    Deleted
    Anyone else having problems with Shadowstrike dmg showing up way after it hit? Like it's really annoying, because I sometimes like to spam it and it's like playing with delayed feedback.

    For example if I use Backstab it hits and the damage numbers show up as my hit connects, but Shadowstrike hits and the number shows up 1 second after that.

    It annoyed me to the point of switching to Outlaw...

  19. #3819
    Quote Originally Posted by lolpve View Post
    SoD is just hunger for blood 2.0. You can't compare a flat damage modifier to a haste modifier. Amazing that rogues are still sticking up for the horrible sub changes.

    Sub went from one of the most deep dps specs in the game to being a 4 button arcade game. We got the wotlk-arcane treatment. It's just depressing and is making me consider a refund on legion.
    please explain why sub was so much deeper than it is now(on level 110 with maxed artifact) cos honestly it barely is.
    you maintained 2 things (rupture slice) now you maintain 2 things(NB+SoD),

    you managed your CDs and made the most out of your dance every minute (IE pool energy before and refresh slice) now you manage your dance charges, make sure to make the most out of them and use every global, and keep SoD up as much as you can,

    in WoD you managed find weakness, in legion you manage finality.

    maximizing the uptime of SoD will be much more intricate than maximizing the uptime of slice and dice ever was, the only reason it's brainless now is because of the t18 setbonuses, which is ironic because those setbonuses were a major part of why people think sub is soooo deep, without t18 wod sub isnt deeper than legion sub at all, they're about the same difficulty, hunger for blood didnt require the rationing of a cooldown's charges to maintain, you just pressed it

    plus now you have another cooldown(shadow blades) which will require forethough like saving up dance charges and so on.

    dont get me wrong im not happy about every single change, i dont like the fact that ShD has a gflobal CD on it, or how boring the buff that SoD gives actually is(but slice wasnt exactly exciting either, at least SoD buffs your next SS) but WoD sub had problems too(sinister calling was awful, counter intuitive and all around unenjoyable, being tied to the legendary ring was terrible and outside CDs it had no damage whatsoever)

    what's depressing is how many people put wod sub on a pedestal, just compare it to how it was in cata, it's laughably easy, so why is it now suddenly then it is a problem, why wod sub is the end all be all of rogue specs? cos it's not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nheela View Post
    Anyone else having problems with Shadowstrike dmg showing up way after it hit?.
    just tested it and it doesnt seem to happen for me, maybe it's some addon you use?
    Last edited by shaunika123; 2016-07-25 at 01:18 PM.

  20. #3820
    Deleted
    I don't use any addons at the moment, have none installed.

    You can actually see what happens in the Auress Subtlety Rogue Weakauras topic.

    I can't post links at the moment, but in the video in that topic you can clearly see how the Shadowstrike numbers lag behind.

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