Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Deleted]

So.
...

from my guide (dark theme comes back soon)

so tl;dr: a crit evi is worth less then a stealth/vanish buffed ss during mantle(assuming you don't use it on high CP amounts)

Evi also has a quite high crit chance by default given you usually have up to 3 Gutripper relics and 4 base points in the trait.

[acrezio21]

Which neck enchant do you guys use ? I have seen that most of the rogues use trained soldier, but rogues from method use hidden satyr. What is the difference between them ?

[Varolyn]

Which neck enchant do you guys use ? I have seen that most of the rogues use trained soldier, but rogues from method use hidden satyr. What is the difference between them ?

Minimal, but trained soldier is slightly better. However, if you already have hidden satyr on your neck, don't bother to waste a couple thousand gold to replace enchants, as the dps gain is that minor.

[shaunika123]

Minimal, but trained soldier is slightly better. However, if you already have hidden satyr on your neck, don't bother to waste a couple thousand gold to replace enchants, as the dps gain is that minor.

even 1 dps is worth more than that 2k gold
that's literally what gold is for anyway

[ymirsson]

even 1 dps is worth more than that 2k gold
that's literally what gold is for anyway

Depends on your DPS, your gold and your targeted content.

[Millyraynge]

even 1 dps is worth more than that 2k gold
that's literally what gold is for anyway

Even 1k sim dps is worth nothing.

[Kwakman]

This new possible 2 piece bonus is something I can get behind. The new one invalidated mastery somewhat as BS doesnt benefit from it. This has ALOT of synergy with our kit and the 4 set.

[Varolyn]

Looks like blizz is really trying to push MFD with t21, and possibly anticipation getting in the spotlight as well. Although I don't think that many people will run 4-piece t20 and 2-piece t21 because that would mean no shoulders and I don't think running that setup is worth losing the shoulders.

[Won7on]

Each Combo Point spent reduces the cooldown of Symbols of Death by 0.2 sec.

That's a new interesting 2pc

For fun, I counted how many CPs you get over the duration of a Symbols CD (the old non-T20-4p 30 sec CD) and it's about 50 with Shadow Blades and about 35 without.

50x0.2 = 10 sec so we'll potentially pretty much have a 20 sec CD Symbols in Antorus, perfect for DFA.

(Yes, I know all the problems with a calc like this but it's decent for a first estimate)

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Looks like blizz is really trying to push MFD with t21, and possibly anticipation getting in the spotlight as well. Although I don't think that many people will run 4-piece t20 and 2-piece t21 because that would mean no shoulders and I don't think running that setup is worth losing the shoulders.

What makes you say that? Extra 6CPs every 40 seconds for the 2 piece? That's a whopping 1.2sec off Symbols every 40 sec. Pretty sure this benefits DFA more since we'll potentially have that ~20-23 sec CD Symbols to line up with DFA better.

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Evi also has a quite high crit chance by default given you usually have up to 3 Gutripper relics and 4 base points in the trait.

I want to live in your fantasy loot world, but sure, your explanation makes sense overall.

P.S. That's a really good guide btw. I really like the graphics.

[sjb10287]

Looks like blizz is really trying to push MFD with t21, and possibly anticipation getting in the spotlight as well. Although I don't think that many people will run 4-piece t20 and 2-piece t21 because that would mean no shoulders and I don't think running that setup is worth losing the shoulders.

I think we will run 2+2 with DFA, 10% is not something you can rely on.

[shaunika123]

DID you guys read the new 4pc setbonus? it's even worse than the previous one.

Item - Rogue T21 Subtlety 4P Bonus Nightblade and Eviscerate have a 10% chance Backstab and Shadowstrike have a 5% chance to grant you Shadow Gestures, causing your next finishing move to refund 100% of Combo Points spent when used.

the previous one was roughly a 10% increase to evis, whenever it procced you just cast evis again, yes it made the spec horribly RNG centric, but on the plus side when you could spam back to back evis procs into dance you felt like a god

not only is the new one more rng than the previous one (if it double/triple procs before you can cast an evis you wasted tons of damage), it's not affected by shurriken storm, which is a spell we use on almost every fight at least some of the time, so in aoe situations it'Ll be a 0 dps upgrade

[Varolyn]

DID you guys read the new 4pc setbonus? it's even worse than the previous one.

Item - Rogue T21 Subtlety 4P Bonus Nightblade and Eviscerate have a 10% chance Backstab and Shadowstrike have a 5% chance to grant you Shadow Gestures, causing your next finishing move to refund 100% of Combo Points spent when used.

the previous one was roughly a 10% increase to evis, whenever it procced you just cast evis again, yes it made the spec horribly RNG centric, but on the plus side when you could spam back to back evis procs into dance you felt like a god

not only is the new one more rng than the previous one (if it double/triple procs before you can cast an evis you wasted tons of damage), it's not affected by shurriken storm, which is a spell we use on almost every fight at least some of the time, so in aoe situations it'Ll be a 0 dps upgrade

Yup, I've noticed that too. Even though I don't really play sub, I can at least appreciate the tier bonuses of t20. Now, I don't even know if any sub rogues are going to give up 4 piece t20, or at the very least, 2 piece t20. Problem is, blizz could always nerf the tier 20 bonus and put sub in a really bad spot. So blizz will either have to buff the 4 piece of t21, or completely overhaul it. It's a really lame final tier set for an expansion, especially when you compare it to the now buffed assassin t21 (Has good synergy, helps with gear scaling a bit, makes a slow spec play a bit faster, useful in AoE/ST).

Sub rogues might want to hope that they get at least two good titanforge t20 pieces from Tomb, cause as it stands, t21 does not look that fun for sub.

[Deleted]

Im looking at 2x t20 and 2 x 21 atm

[shaunika123]

Im looking at 2x t20 and 2 x 21 atm

yeah, that'll hold for a while, but eventually the ilvl gap will basically force us to go 4pc just like it did in tos

[Kwakman]

I just realized: this 4 piece bonus just doesn't do anything at all in an AoE situation. Hope this gets looked at.

[Deleted]

I just realized: this 4 piece bonus just doesn't do anything at all in an AoE situation. Hope this gets looked at.

Yeah i guess so. Refunded cps would go into a normal evisc that isn't shuriken buffed.
Unless it magically lines up with nb refresh time.

If the proccing eviscerate doesnt consume buff from shuriken it would help a bit i guess?
And shuriken was added next to bs and ss to trigger gestures.

[shaunika123]

And shuriken was added next to bs and ss to trigger gestures.

really?
was it just updated on the PTR, or is there a post of it somewhere?

btw if it works on shurriken storm, then it most definitely is a dps upgrade in aoe :P

[Deleted]

really?
was it just updated on the PTR, or is there a post of it somewhere?

btw if it works on shurriken storm, then it most definitely is a dps upgrade in aoe :P

Sry I ment that as a part of the "IF" statement.
That it would help on AOE, as its already skewed towards funneling more damage into a primary target.

"If the proccing eviscerate doesnt consume buff from shuriken it would help a bit i guess?
And IF shuriken was added next to bs and ss to trigger gestures."

[Deleted]

Sry I ment that as a part of the "IF" statement.
That it would help on AOE, as its already skewed towards funneling more damage into a primary target.

"If the proccing eviscerate doesnt consume buff from shuriken it would help a bit i guess?
And IF shuriken was added next to bs and ss to trigger gestures."

How dare you wake our hope to then crush it under your boot.

[Blayke]

Just got back to playing sub after spending the last few months as sin, so hopefully this isnt a stupid question. I noticed that both icy veins and ravenholdt both recommend nightstalker over subterfuge. But i also noticed the tool tips they linked say that NS gives a 50% buff from stealth. My tooltip says its only a 12% buff. So it seems to me that while NS would indeed be better if it gave that 50% buff (like it does for sin), but with only a 12% buff then it's pretty weak, and subterfuge would be the better choice.

Any clarification on this would be appreciated.