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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Rait View Post
    What? It will matter for 80% of the fights looking at blizzard recent trend of having only 1-3 ST fights per tier. That change is by no means minor, WW is defined by SEF in its current iteration and since we are not getting rework I don't see WW niche or anything that would make it desirable to any raid group, but let's wait for class blogs (but since WW wasn't among specs that are getting changed like shadow/demo/survi/combat rouge I doubt we will see major overhaul and there is no way WW will be top ST spec, SEF in or not).
    I'm assuming it will still work on two targets. In that case, Twin Ogron, Iron Council, Hellfire Council, Hans and Franz, etc probably won't be that different, if at all. Other fights, it will matter a bit. Say Archimonde, you probably want one SEF on the Archimonde while you target the Felborne Overfiends. There's no guarantee one of your SEFs will stick to the boss on situation, but at least SEF will auto target the dreadstalkers as they die. Yes, it takes away interesting gameplay, and take away space in which you can grow and become a better player. But all in all, the amount of fights where you specifically trying to target a ranged add or a specific add, both in the situation where there are multiple adds, is not that many. The point I'm trying to make is; yes, we use SEF on most fights, but for most fights (not all) we don't really do anything special with SEF that the loss of control over where SEF goes, is a major issue. You may get in those situation and want the old SEF back, but the new SEF won't be that bad. Pretty sure WW's will get Clash aka Death Grip, Blizzard wants to share that utility with other classes and WW monk need pvp buffs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Khorm View Post
    Lots of whine in this thread.
    It's pretty much a change no current WW wants, but every wannabe WW wants.
    Last edited by Basilmoyh; 2015-11-08 at 11:07 PM.

  2. #42
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by satimy View Post
    I was considering rerolling to WW next expansion, but sorry guys its now marked on my DNP list
    Strange, because for me the only thing holding me back from maining WW was SEF. Funny how different we are eh?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Khorm View Post
    Lots of whine in this thread.
    It's kind of unwarranted for the most part. Yes it's sad to see the spell go that set apart good monks and great monks but if you actually think about how relevant SEF in its current form compared to a SEF as a blade flurry would work, you'll probably notice that there are actually very, very few fights where old SEF would be better than new SEF.

    Honestly I don't think people notice it so much once we get to raid. They will obviously design encounters with these type of things in mind.

  3. #43
    SEF was the most clunky spell in WoW that required perfect targeting and UI to work.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinsla View Post
    Strange, because for me the only thing holding me back from maining WW was SEF. Funny how different we are eh?

    imagine that, different people like different things also, someone will be mad regardless of what happens.

  5. #45
    Potentially good and bad changes.

    I'm extremely new to WW, and will admit that I'm not even 100% comfortable with my ST rotation yet. I haven't even ventured into the MT/cleave talents (Ascension+Chi Explosion) which will be an entirely new learning curve.

    The current SEF isn't even used by players like me yet just because of the added complexity to the skill. I love how you have free range over it, and I understand how some have said the Legion version dumbs that part down and can understand that. I think this is just giving a complicated (probably most complex class/spec to excel with) a more practical approach to skill capping.

    From the current state of things, players like myself that are new to the class need to get ST and MT/cleave down perfectly before adding another layer of complexity to the already complex class - which I'm fine with. I knew before leveling my monk that it's the hardest class to master, but I like the challenge and I don't want that to change.

  6. #46
    The new SEF is a step in the right direction, but I think the complete lack of control over the ability leaves it a little bit lack luster.
    -First off, there's been no mention that this can only split into two, so right off the bat it's gimping us on numerous fights that are generally only two target fights. (Twin Ogron, Brackenspore, Tectus, Kilrogg, Hans/Frans, just to name a few...
    -Second, the complete lack of control of the clones brings up so many more problems.
    -Third, What will clones prioritize? If they prioritize targets with RSK debuff, then fine, but if they just switch to w/e target is close, it can cause so many problem.
    -Fourth, Will clones receive Tiger Palm or will we yet again have to apply it after spawning them. That to me has always been the gripe of the talent, not the GCD cost.

    To conclude,I will say this new SEF offers some unique instances where it can and will be better. Burst AoE situations with 7+ adds will be much stronger with this SEF, HOWEVER I've never found using SEF in these situations beneficial in the first place... TEB + RSK + Chi Burst and Chi Torpedo is arguably one of the highest burst AoE rotations in the game. The only thing arguably higher is demonology warlocks (but ONLY with their T17 bonuses). If the new SEF is taking Chi Torpedo's identity, than what then are we to use Chi Torpedo for? Cause you damn sure as hell will not use Chi Torpedo while SEF is active.

  7. #47
    Deleted
    I'm not sad to see SEF changing, it needs to be significantly less clunky to use, however I hope what they are doing is stripping away all the control and then over the course of alpha/beta they can slowly add bits back and as such find a sweet spo where it is both effective and simple to use.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by mojojojo101 View Post
    I'm not sad to see SEF changing, it needs to be significantly less clunky to use, however I hope what they are doing is stripping away all the control and then over the course of alpha/beta they can slowly add bits back and as such find a sweet spo where it is both effective and simple to use.
    Why do I feel like like the only one that didn't think it was clunky to use. The whole point of the spell is that we're sacrificing a bit of single target to get MUCH better cleave, it makes sense for it to have a GCD cost.
    The only thing that need to be tweaked with SEF was to have clones instantly benefit from buffs/debuffs, and to let them move while casting FoF.
    Those two simple things would fix the spell.

  9. #49
    I feel like what most players tend to mean by "clunky" is that it takes mouseover/targeting accuracy and speed to perform correctly. Mechanically I don't see how this is any different or more confusing than ANY other class that takes advantage of multidotting/execute sniping (Shadowburn, SW: Death, etc.) It also might be because it's off the GCD. Getting used to applying clones in the middle of your "rotation" can be difficult at first. It's all about practice, muscle memory and getting comfortable with the flow of the class.

    The ability is very straightforward in what it does and how it works. As mentioned many times before the things that make them difficult to optimize are that players must manage their clones' buffs, debuffs and have to account for target movement. If they just baked our buffs inherently into the clones or made it so that our clones copy our own buffs when we spawn them there would be zero confusion about how to use them properly.

    The new SEF doesn't really solve any of the issues that players were having before, it literally just takes away targeting choice. This screws us heavily on fights with different adds that all spawn at once, because we can't afford 33-66% of our damage chasing after some low priority mob that it might not even be able to catch. Making it a toggle doesn't just magically turn it into an on demand infinite-mob cleave like Blade Flurry.

    Really hoping they decide to at least give some way of assigning targets or else we're actually LOSING functionality of our class iconic ability. If anything this new SEF functionality should be a glyph option. Give players who prefer managing which targets their clones are on their thing, and let anyone that wants a more automated system use that.
    Last edited by bushes; 2015-11-09 at 05:46 AM.

  10. #50
    The spell has this weird duality of being one of the coolest spells in the game, iconic to monks, while at the same time being awkward to use and a major barrier to both attracting new monk players and balancing monk dps.

    Maybe there can be a talent to go back to current style for those of us who have gone through the trouble of getting the hang of it, but then again, maybe dumbing it down will help to limit the extremes between single target and multi target dps output so that they can give us some viable single target numbers.

  11. #51
    Not a fan of the change -but let's see how it turns out in beta.
    What I'm afraid of is that the AI won't be up to the challenge of not fucking things up in some tight raid/pve situations.

    But I'm sure they'll not fuck us over so again, let's wait and see. I'm sure we'll get more details on Thursday in the Monk blog and will get to experience it in the beta once it hits.

  12. #52
    So i think it basically will be sorta like the mage's MIRROR IMAGE spell, where the mage splits into multiple copies of herself.

    I think that is pretty cool actually, now that i think about it.

    Make them also channel Crackling Jade Lightning at their target, just like how the frost mage's clones cast frostbolt at their target. Haha, that would be so cool!!

  13. #53
    Stood in the Fire Xiaojin's Avatar
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    I'm glad they're "dumbing down" SEF. I get how the ability works, I just don't find that kind of gameplay to be any fun at all. Especially with clones requiring their own Tiger Palm/Rising Sun Kick and moving so slowly. As your group progresses, gets better gear and thus kills adds faster, the value of SEF decreases over time for some fights due to the high ramp-up time (a general problem with WWs IMHO) of SEF. I just hope that Blizzard, while they are already in the process of changing this spell, goes further than just removing the target micro-management. I also hope that the Monk blog post will shed some more light on how much SEF gets changed and how the new version will work.
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  14. #54
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinsla View Post
    It's kind of unwarranted for the most part. Yes it's sad to see the spell go that set apart good monks and great monks but if you actually think about how relevant SEF in its current form compared to a SEF as a blade flurry would work, you'll probably notice that there are actually very, very few fights where old SEF would be better than new SEF.

    Honestly I don't think people notice it so much once we get to raid. They will obviously design encounters with these type of things in mind.
    On most fights right now the old SEF is better than the new SEF. And no, they will not obviously design encounters with the changes to one ability of one dps spec in mind.

    Examples:
    HFA - Images may attack running targets, or attack dragoons which die anyway in the AoE instead of important targets. Less control is crippling on this fight. Or damage a caster too fast below 50%, which can result in a wipe.
    Reaver - Luck-dependent. Probably your images decide to attack the bombs tanks have to one-shot anyway, so you lose important damage.
    Kormrok - Depends a little on what you have to do. I always loved the ability to do at least a little damage with SEF while doing the runes. If you don't have to do that, it's a little advantage (faster set-up time) for the hands - if you don't have a warrior or demo lock, which kill them anyway before you can do any useful damage.
    Council - Worse, because in part only 2 targets.
    Kilrogg - Same. Most of the time there are more targets, but they're running around. Possibly better for log faking if your guild sends WW down.
    Gorefiend - Much worse. Oh, your image attacks a person which should stay down in the belly for some time? Too bad, here, have a wipe.
    Etc.

    TLDR: Less control and more randomness at a core ability, around which our DPS is balanced, is almost always bad.
    Last edited by mmoc48c29aaf6e; 2015-11-09 at 12:54 PM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinsla View Post
    SEF is one of the clunkiest and awkward spells in the entire game's history. Never has a spell caused players as much trouble and problem as this one. Honestly, all you need to do is look at the SEF tooltip. A spell that is a literal mini pamphlet in terms of its word size needs to go. No single spell should be this complex.
    Hey, atleast it isn't symbiosis.

  16. #56
    Stood in the Fire Xiaojin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forsta View Post
    On most fights right now the old SEF is better than the new SEF. And no, they will not obviously design encounters with the changes to one ability of one dps spec in mind.

    Examples:
    HFA - Images may attack running targets, or attack dragoons which die anyway in the AoE instead of important targets. Less control is crippling on this fight. Or damage a caster too fast below 50%, which can result in a wipe.
    Or don't use SEF because mobs die too quickly anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forsta View Post
    Reaver - Luck-dependent. Probably your images decide to attack the bombs tanks have to one-shot anyway, so you lose important damage.
    Or don't use SEF because bombs die super-quickly anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forsta View Post
    Kormrok - Depends a little on what you have to do. I always loved the ability to do at least a little damage with SEF while doing the runes. If you don't have to do that, it's a little advantage (faster set-up time) for the hands - if you don't have a warrior or demo lock, which kill them anyway before you can do any useful damage.
    Or don't use SEF because "Bladestorm, lol".

    Quote Originally Posted by Forsta View Post
    Council - Worse, because in part only 2 targets.
    Should work well enough for downing Bloodboil and the Blademaster. If your raid has enough DPS that you can scumbag by putting a clone on Dia (i.e. the others stay up longer because you deal less damage to them), your raid doesn't need to care about your ability to meaninglessly pad meters anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forsta View Post
    Kilrogg - Same. Most of the time there are more targets, but they're running around. Possibly better for log faking if your guild sends WW down.
    Here SEF MAY actually be slightly useful but from our first pull on Mythic onwards adds dieing too quickly (i.e. right next to the boss; hello Soul Capacitor) has been a far bigger issue than adds not dieing quickly enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forsta View Post
    Gorefiend - Much worse. Oh, your image attacks a person which should stay down in the belly for some time? Too bad, here, have a wipe.
    Considering that it's all about priority (i.e. putting the highest possible damage on whatever currently has the highest priority, not splitting your damage!), why should I want to use SEF here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forsta View Post
    Etc.
    Yes, on Iskar SEF is useful.... until your raid gets so powerful again that the "intermission adds" die very quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forsta View Post
    TLDR: Less control and more randomness at a core ability, around which our DPS is balanced, is almost always bad.
    I agree, SEF needs to go completely so that we do not have to be balanced around its existence.

    Sorry for being so negative, but I don't find SEF that useful in HFC. I may not be the best WW out there but I'm not that bad either. I think a SEF without targeting and more importantly, without its own TP/RSK/whatever, would actually be a lot stronger in HFC than the current SEF.
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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Xiaojin View Post
    Or don't use SEF because mobs die too quickly anyway.


    Or don't use SEF because bombs die super-quickly anyway.


    Or don't use SEF because "Bladestorm, lol".


    Should work well enough for downing Bloodboil and the Blademaster. If your raid has enough DPS that you can scumbag by putting a clone on Dia (i.e. the others stay up longer because you deal less damage to them), your raid doesn't need to care about your ability to meaninglessly pad meters anyway.


    Here SEF MAY actually be slightly useful but from our first pull on Mythic onwards adds dieing too quickly (i.e. right next to the boss; hello Soul Capacitor) has been a far bigger issue than adds not dieing quickly enough.


    Considering that it's all about priority (i.e. putting the highest possible damage on whatever currently has the highest priority, not splitting your damage!), why should I want to use SEF here?


    Yes, on Iskar SEF is useful.... until your raid gets so powerful again that the "intermission adds" die very quickly.


    I agree, SEF needs to go completely so that we do not have to be balanced around its existence.

    Sorry for being so negative, but I don't find SEF that useful in HFC. I may not be the best WW out there but I'm not that bad either. I think a SEF without targeting and more importantly, without its own TP/RSK/whatever, would actually be a lot stronger in HFC than the current SEF.
    This whole post screams "WE SHOULD ALL REROLL ROGUES ANYWAYS FOR EVERYTHING!" Quite literally the only thing we excel at in comparison to rogues is having godly cleave and single target at the same time. If your raid doesn't want you cleaving they should really be looking to bring in a different DPS for any sort of progression boss.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by bushes View Post
    This whole post screams "WE SHOULD ALL REROLL ROGUES ANYWAYS FOR EVERYTHING!" Quite literally the only thing we excel at in comparison to rogues is having godly cleave and single target at the same time. If your raid doesn't want you cleaving they should really be looking to bring in a different DPS for any sort of progression boss.
    I wouldn't say that we can cleave and ST at the same time.
    from my experience, i was always told to not use clones, even on bosses such as council, at least for progression, because they wanted gurtogg dead ASAP, and didn't care about other bosses health.
    same for almost every boss that you can cleave.

    SEF hurts our ST. and as long as our ST suffers from it, I think this spell is crap.
    hopefully, they will change that. we can hope..

  19. #59
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Xiaojin View Post
    Or don't use SEF because mobs die too quickly anyway.


    Or don't use SEF because bombs die super-quickly anyway.


    Or don't use SEF because "Bladestorm, lol".
    I'm thinking about progress. Obviously, when you're really far in the raid and have no problems on the boss and kill everything really fast, finetuning single abilities isn't as important.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xiaojin View Post
    Considering that it's all about priority (i.e. putting the highest possible damage on whatever currently has the highest priority, not splitting your damage!), why should I want to use SEF here?
    I can only speak for myself here. I was the one who should get the people up from the realm. I have to have control over which targets my clones attack and when. Even when not, putting an image on the tankmob while running around killing skeletons and the occasional caster seems like a good idea on paper.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiaojin View Post
    I agree, SEF needs to go completely so that we do not have to be balanced around its existence.
    I disagree with that. I think the ability adds something unique to the class. It should be a little weaker, and the bazillion of problems (ramp up time, running mobs, etc) should be fixed. Just making the images randomly run around and attack stuff isn't the right choice for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiaojin View Post
    Sorry for being so negative, but I don't find SEF that useful in HFC. I may not be the best WW out there but I'm not that bad either. I think a SEF without targeting and more importantly, without its own TP/RSK/whatever, would actually be a lot stronger in HFC than the current SEF.
    Because of the time it needs to be set up, SEF is weak on mobs that die too fast. The better your guild is compared to the content, the weaker SEF. During progress, there are many instances where SEF can be a damage increase, and I'd like to keep the control where this damage is applied.

  20. #60
    One more thing i've got to add, and that is my wildest dream...

    I realllyyy want this ability to resemble the monk from Diablo or shadow-clones from Naurto.
    That is: Every time you attack while this toggle is active, a clone materialize next to an enemy and instantly vanishes once he completes his attack.

    So I imagine fighting a boss with many adds, and Spirits appearing all over the battle-field with a puff of smoke and light, making the Windwalker seem elusive, while still keeping the signature move of splitting up into more than one.

    This will mean you can't control what is the target of the clone, but will always be useful, like the developers stated.
    but again, if they want it to be like Blade Flurry, this can't reduce your main target damage!

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