New Storm, Earth, and Fire in LEGION

[Tradu]

I agree, SEF needs to go completely so that we do not have to be balanced around its existence.

Sorry for being so negative, but I don't find SEF that useful in HFC. I may not be the best WW out there but I'm not that bad either. I think a SEF without targeting and more importantly, without its own TP/RSK/whatever, would actually be a lot stronger in HFC than the current SEF.

SEF is very useful in HFC, especially on the late bosses(Xhul being a prime example, but it also has its uses on the others, and certain earlier bosses)

And on the topic of new-SEF, I really don't like the idea of it being Bladeflurry 2.0 that relies on Blizzard "AI" and not being able to control where they go. Just fixing the issues with it like lack of Floating Butterfly(and moving targets in general) and lack of buff inheriting(TeB, TP and RSK) would be more than enough, and tuning it in a way where we're strong on cleave but also do decent/good singletarget DPS. If they don't want to tune us properly, I'd agree with Xiaojin and rather just have SEF removed than only being useful on very few fights(2-3 target sustained-ish cleave).

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We know what we know so far. We don't know HOW the AI works just yet, so anyone who is saying they will attack the wrong target is speculating. It should be better phrased as "We hope the implementation means a smart AI is working" - at this point we know nothing.

Questions / concerns should be phrased as that, outrage that "They are dumb and will attack the wrong stuff!" Is 100% misplaced at this time.

The thing is, based on how other "AI"s Blizzard uses in WoW work, it WILL be extremely dumb and not attack what you want it to(how could it if we don't get to specifically pick the targets? It can't read our minds, and just going for the closest targets or even "whatever has the most health" won't do the trick). Sure, they might blow our minds with some crazy new AI, but I really doubt that'll happen based on previous experiences with "AI"s in WoW.

[Malvient]

I think the three main complaints about SEF are:

1) It's clunky to use, and if you don't know how to do third grade math, you may not realize that using it is a DPS increase.

This isn't a difficult fix. I think a toggle is a great idea, but not on it's own. If we have no control over what they target or how many spawn, it needs to affect our personal DPS substantially less. Even so, that makes it Blade Flurry, and Blade Flurry is not a "fun" ability.

One thing they could do is give us an ability to "mark" targets with, and our SEF clones would attack those targets before unmarked targets, similar to the moonfire/starfall interaction. This would maintain the benefit of skilled use, while still making the skill accessible and understandable to everyone.

Having SEF clones move onto new targets instead of having to be recast constantly would be a huge quality of life change.

2) The UI doesn't support it at all. I personally use a combination of WAs, the SEF addon, and macros to effectively manage SEF, and it works alright, but it shouldn't be required.

Again, not a difficult fix. Give us a way to track the clones and their targets, properly. Make them pets, perhaps.

3) Common belief is that we are balanced around using it, yet there are many encounters where we can't, so our single target damage suffers.

I think this is the core problem with SEF. It's really good when it can be used effectively, and completely useless when it can't be used at all. It would be like making a boss that is immune to shadow damage for portions of a fight. Except it's not one boss, it's like 60% of all bosses. Have fun warlocks!

I think if Blizzard wants to emphasize SEF as part of the "fantasy" (to use their new buzzword) of the class, and I think they should, they need to add additional abilities that synergize with SEF. Examples:

- ST DPS cooldown that spawns/causes your SEF clones to attack your current target for X seconds, using the same abilities, but triggers a cooldown on SEF. WW currently only has Xuen/Serenity as a DPS CD, so this would be a great addition. This would give it a use in ST-only fights as well.

- Transcendence: Transfer to an SEF clone, swapping places, elements, and targets.

- AOE DPS cooldown that causes your clones to short-range AOE taunt (minor glyph to remove) and then explode a second later for X elemental damage (depending on which clones explode), again causing an X second CD on SEF (depending on how many clones exploded.)

There's really tons of possibilities.

Another option, one that I don't think they want to go with, is to just make it weaker and a talent, so we can choose between it or a single target talent, similar to the chex/serenity choice.

[Deleted]

I get they want to push the fantasy of SEF, but after a while it started to sour and left a bad taste in my mouth that if I'm not doing a fight where I can cleave effectively with it, I was going to be doing subpar. It's like we're the fire mages of melee, except we don't get to swap out to a better single target spec between fights.

I'd be satisfied with the current, or new SEF to be a small cooldown similar to the original Blade Flurry, then have us balanced more towards single target damage, with the hint of on-demand cleave to keep the flavour. I want to punch and kick things and be awesome at it, not have my entire spec focus around three coloured images.

[Ryuutora]

Something that bothers me about the idea of it hurting our ST: we've had the spell since 5.2, so 5.2, 5.3, 5.4, and 5.4.8 they seemingly had no trouble balancing SEF and ST but now it seems to be a problem?

Concern that they might over-buff the clones? Lol, 6.2.2 clearly disproves that notion with buffs directly affecting the clones damage as well. I don't think the Stance nerf back in December was to control SEF usage either. If they were really concerned, they would perhaps tweak the clones themselves, not the Monk - no?

I personally think there's something missing from the toolkit, perhaps damage they cannot give or something along those lines because evidently the chance to do a free Rising Sun Kick fixes the problem of ST. We don't have the ability to swap stances like a Warrior or MW but Tiger Stance can be viewed and left after pruning, one would think that since it doesn't affect our clones they would perhaps buff ST through there if it was a problem.

Idk, I would think hard target swapping to apply Rend, dots or Flame Shock more clunky than applying 2 clones - the buff part should really only be Tiger Palm considering you'd use RSK on CD ideally, not like it's a really long CD. What I've encountered to be the biggest problem is either a lack of understanding or the ability to read, it seems harsh but they went out their way to explain how the spell works by drastically changing the tooltip from MoP to WoD. Be it 25 levels or 10, it seems to be a shock telling someone that it sorta doesn't work ST and that the description is in the spell.

On second thought, trying to explain to a new Rogue that they shouldn't have Blade Flurry up when not cleaving because it reduces Energy regain is practically the same thing. *Shrug* Hopefully Wed clears this up, or the off-chance of a CM posting (lol nah).

[Notter]

Something that bothers me about the idea of it hurting our ST: we've had the spell since 5.2, so 5.2, 5.3, 5.4, and 5.4.8 they seemingly had no trouble balancing SEF and ST but now it seems to be a problem?

ChiX mate...

[Saverem]

It won't really effect me as I don't play WW much (except for when I'm leveling up, I guess), but I like the change. Less work fumbling around with targets is always a good thing. Also, if it causes a dip in DPS because we can't choose our targets, then it's just an easy numbers change. They can increase the damage of the clones or something to compensate.

In the end of the day, it's a quality of life change for the better, so it's a good thing.

[Therris]

Really the most unneeded change I've ever seen

[Notter]

I feel like SEF is going to be good only for AoE now.
that is: toggle clones > SCK rotation

[DehkFM]

I feel like SEF is going to be good only for AoE now.
that is: toggle clones > SCK rotation

Assuming your clones are smart enough to run to the adds that are clumped together and not those 2 ranged mobs 20 yards away

[Deleted]

Making them non controllable will make them a liability in many fights. The control UI of them is a mess, but just making them uncontrollable opens a whole new box of problems... I still think the whole ability is a major balance problem for cleave fights unless they make it a short term cooldown (I guess it IS pretty iconic to split up like that, but from a balance standpoint having 3 clones up all the time is a mess, means all of our AoE abilities have to be much weaker, or Monk AoE in the right circumstances goes through the roof).

[Super Kami Dende]

Great Change. SEF wasn't hard to use, it was just Clunky as fuck.

[Astronom]

Current version is clunky as heck, at least until you've had a lot of practice at it. The new version looks like a considerably improvement, overall.

But if there's only two targets the new version will be inferior. Perhaps they could make it so if there's only two targets one of the spirits disappears and the damage of the other two is boosted.

[Deleted]

SEF is one of the reasons I didn't main a Monk. It's such an awkward, clunky, pain in the ass skill. Before people jump on the "it's an L2P issue", it's not. I'm more than capable of playing well on any class, maximizing my DPS etc. However, this specific spell is designed TERRIBLY, having to use multiple GCDs to get your AOE damage ramping up is SO against everything a Monks gameplay should feel like. Everything should be quick, reactive and at a good pace. This is fully counter-intuitive to the class as a whole

Saying that, the new change sounds fine! Sure it's less complex, but who actually cares, it's hardly taking much away from gameplay other than a few more button clicks while aoe'ing. Just because you press more buttons, doesn't mean it takes more skill to use

[Ustabil]

One of my biggest issues with SEF atm is that it dont copy your TP or RSK buffs, but since they going in legion that would not be a problem.

And seeing how we can move during FoF without glyph, makes me think clones can use FoF while moving as well. So basicly they just would need to buff the movementspeed on the clones by a little and it would be quite painless and wouldnt mind if it stayed the same.

And most of us thats not happy with the change, realize that the change will mean we got 0 controll over which adds the clones going to. That is quite huge. Progress raiding always have targets with higher priority than others. How will we know that the AI will choose the correct ones.

[Notter]

Assuming your clones are smart enough to run to the adds that are clumped together and not those 2 ranged mobs 20 yards away

from what i understood, they will target mobs closest to you
that + 50% on all targets + No ChiX = SEF will be an AoE enhancer.
or, good for fight where there are 3+ bosses with linked HP.

[Deleted]

for highend raiding SEF value went down ALOT, since padding is not generally valued unless tactics require you to pad for the ring for example, when you have no control over the targets SEF goes to, its dps loss when there is multiple adds and you only need to focus 1 of the adds, like for example as WW you only wanna hit Felborne on Archimonde with your SEF and not use clone on dreadstalkers, its a dps loss when you cant 2 target cleave Felborne and Archimonde, but im pretty darn sure that there is talents to counter the randomness of 2-3 target cleave for people who value priority dps over padding the meters

[Dragon88]

SEF is one of the reasons I didn't main a Monk. It's such an awkward, clunky, pain in the ass skill. Before people jump on the "it's an L2P issue", it's not. I'm more than capable of playing well on any class, maximizing my DPS etc. However, this specific spell is designed TERRIBLY, having to use multiple GCDs to get your AOE damage ramping up is SO against everything a Monks gameplay should feel like. Everything should be quick, reactive and at a good pace. This is fully counter-intuitive to the class as a whole

Saying that, the new change sounds fine! Sure it's less complex, but who actually cares, it's hardly taking much away from gameplay other than a few more button clicks while aoe'ing. Just because you press more buttons, doesn't mean it takes more skill to use

You say who cares but I think you were replying to the plenty of people in this very thread who do, lol. There are those who don't think the spell is clunky (I am included if you need a target). And I'm thinking you never executed it very well in the first place and gave up well before you realized its potential due to the fact that you're referencing a GCD that hasn't been in the skill since 6.0. Technically any skill is "l2p" as you say, the more you apply them in combat the better you get at adapting to a fight and still getting good numbers out of them.

You're right that pressing buttons doesnt make you skillful, but I'd argue that having to make decisions based on one skill that either rewards you well (bigger numbers) for using it right, or penalizes you (dps loss) for not, does require some. The lack of control that this new version implies is what is giving a lot of us pause, as SEF is a great skill with some complexity. I personally enjoy having to "l2P", complex abilities/rotations are my preference, I'm assuming they are not yours, neither one of us is wrong. And if having to choose which targets get a clone or don't before they die isn't quick and reactive I don't know what is since you brought the issue of "what it should feel like".

I joined this game in 2006 and it seems like they've been simplifying it ever since. I'm not forming an opinion because freaking out when we haven't seen it in-game once, let alone talents/glyphs/artifact abilities that could alter it, would be foolish. I just want the option to keep it complex (clunky if you will) with the great return on optimal usage and the penalty for using it incorrectly. Toggle skills are not reactive, it's A or B, choose. I prefer the way it is now with its risk/reward, decision-on-the-fly nature, that's worlds better than "see adds, press button, forget".

[Deleted]

The idea that you'd get an ability to mark targets sounds great to me. "Mark target to get prioritized by SEF" could be the skill. Newer or casual players would never need to touch the skill and perform fine. More hardcore players could optimize the usage of SEF as before.

[SimonVonLagMaat]

Yea, both ways have pros and cons.

I wish they can make a glyph, so we can choose how we want it to work.

The devs said that they are rolling major glyphs into the abilities they popularly augmented (Think any "Mandatory" glyph) so they're just going to be present. They're getting rid of Major glyphs though.