[Mage] Legion: General Information and Discussion

[Ifritlol]

Help me, please. When I got to lvl 103 on my hunter I got access to my 2 other artifacts. Now I got to lvl 103 with my mage and I can't find questgivers anywhere. Hunters quests were in Dalaran BTW. Does anybody have such problem?

[Kuni Zyrekai]

Frost: After using the T18 Frost bonus for so long, 2 FoF "slots" just seems so limited, especially when I look at the frost artifact. You get bonus FoF procs pretty much everywhere there. Other than that, the new spell Glacial Spike just feels really clunky. It's just a very slow cast that doesn't fit very well into the otherwise fast paced Frost rotation.

T18's a different beast though, you're always generating an obscene amount of FoF instead of having it in bursts with a semi-steady low amount coming in. There's a +1 FoF trait now, and 3 works fine in practice. I'd recommend hitting the PVP realms to get a sense of how they play with full traits, since that'll be the vast majority of the expansion.

I can't say I find GS clunky in any way. The spec needs long casts here and there to maintain haste's priority, and 3s with haste doesn't really feel out of place to me.

In general it's just weird only having so few spells on my bar (IIRC I counted like 11 in total, that's barely a full bar (12)).

I can't speak to the others but that's patently false for Frost.



CoC and Spellsteal on modifiers, TW and ports elsewhere. Not running FBomb. Like I guess I get it if you're running nothing but passives, but that doesn't strip much out. The other two will probably have less but they have less on live anyway.

[Dizzeeyooo]

I can't speak to the others but that's patently false for Frost.

he was obviously exaggerating slightly, but you only just managing to fill two bars kinda makes his point anyway

I can't say I find GS clunky in any way. The spec needs long casts here and there to maintain haste's priority, and 3s with haste doesn't really feel out of place to me.

to anyone that enjoyed playing with 19k haste in mop, 3 second cast times feel like an eternity

[Imnick]

he was obviously exaggerating slightly, but you only just managing to fill two bars kinda makes his point anyway

"I have barely one full bar" and "I can fill two bars of spells" are so far apart that this cannot possibly be making his point.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

he was obviously exaggerating slightly, but you only just managing to fill two bars kinda makes his point anyway

I'm not seeing his point. On top of find me logs of anyone who isn't me playing PC Frost, and CmS is laughed at. Remembering that the alpha bars ARE full, I just have Spellsteal and Cone in macros.

to anyone that enjoyed playing with 19k haste in mop, 3 second cast times feel like an eternity

Yes, but to anyone who played 19k haste in MoP, being over GCD cap is apparently also enjoyable. A statement most would find false.

[Dizzeeyooo]

"I have barely one full bar" and "I can fill two bars of spells" are so far apart that this cannot possibly be making his point.

the point that buttons are missing is still the same point if you lose 10% of your buttons or 50% of your buttons

I'm not seeing his point.

obviously not when your WoD ui is completely raiding focused and bare bones as it is

Yes, but to anyone who played 19k haste in MoP, being over GCD cap is apparently also enjoyable. A statement most would find false.

times like this make me miss Akraen

[Kuni Zyrekai]

obviously not when your WoD ui is completely raiding focused and bare bones as it is

My UI is an atrocity filled with nonsense, I literally dumped those bars for the purposes of comparison. But sure let's go.



Here's a UM/IF/CmS set for PoF. Given 1 is a placeholder for IN/FBomb when specced UM. Hell, I gained a button on Alpha.

I. Do. Not. See. His. Point.

I am also going to bed. Good night.

[Dizzeeyooo]

I. Do. Not. See. His. Point.

agree to disagree then I guess

[Imnick]

20 buttons is a pretty reasonable amount to have, and it is absolutely true that if someone says "you only have one bar of abilities" and you show them two bars, that completely smashes their point rather than "further proving" it.

It's literally twice as much as they said.

[Frost1129]

I can't speak to the others but that's patently false for Frost.

False for Arcane as well.

[Deleted]

There were never that many for raiding anyway. It's when it got to PvP that may have been extreme when you added all the defenses. That was true for most classes with small exceptions, e.g. warriors who still seem a bit overloaded compared to others for some reason, but that's probably to their advantage to a good player.

It is likely more complex now on damaging abilities. What did arcane have in Firelands? 3 damaging abilities and a couple of cooldowns? It wasn't much different on fire and frost.

It shouldn't be Heroes of the Storm where only 3 - 4 abilities are used like it's a mobile game but between offenses and defenses, altogether they shouldn't be more than 20-22.

[Imnick]

It's still true that PvP will have more keybindings too, as while many of the pvp talents are passives or reduce other actives, there are some that just give you more buttons.

Although looking at the grids again, only 1 for Frost, 2 for Fire and Arcane.

[Seneca]

God bless wikias.

Excluding stuff like teleports, foods, etc.:
Legion Frost: there are 17 baseline spells (8 class spells, 8 frost only spells, 1 artifact spell), a minimum of 16 and a maximum of 23 with talents (25 with PvP talents at best).
WoD Frost: there are 19 baseline spells (12 class spells, 7 frost only spells), a minimum of 20 and a maximum of 26 with talents.
MoP Frost: there were 30 baseline spells (26 class spells, 4 frost only spells), a minimum of 32 and a maximum of 36 with talents.

Legion Arcane: there are 18 baseline spells (8 class spells, 9 arcane only spells, 1 artifact spell), a minimum of 18 and a maximum of 24 with talents (26 with PvP talents at best).
WoD Arcane: there are 20 baseline spells (12 class spells, 8 arcane only spells), a minimum of 21 and a maximum of 27 with talents.
MoP Arcane: there were 32 baseline spells (27 class spells, 5 arcane only spells), a minimum of 34 and a maximum of 38 with talents.

Legion Fire: there are 17 baseline spells (8 class spells, 8 fire only spells, 1 artifact spell), a minimum of 17 and a maximum of 22 with talents (24 with PvP talents at best).
WoD Fire: there are 18 baseline spells (11 class spells, 7 fire only spells), a minimum of 19 and a maximum of 25 with talents.
MoP Fire: there were 32 baseline spells (26 class spells, 6 fire only spells), a minimum of 34 and a maximum of 38 with talents.

I don't remember if in MoP Arcane Missiles was arcane only or class wide. In the latter case, add a +1 baseline spell to fire MoP and frost MoP.
MoP spell numbers might be inaccurate because the MoP talent calculator is all fucked up, but it should be 99% flawless (I mean at the very worst I am wrong about 1-2 spells, I guess).
The rest should be quite accurate, if it is not, blame wikias.

Rip top right action bar number 1, top right action about number 2, middle right action bar, 2004-2014, we'll never forget you.

It's still true that PvP will have more keybindings too, as while many of the pvp talents are passives or reduce other actives, there are some that just give you more buttons.

Over 18 PvP talents, only 2 talents (Tier 4, left; Tier 6, right) are active talents. So, at the very best, we gain 2 more spells, if we are willingly to choose them (which are PvP only too, btw).

It shouldn't be Heroes of the Storm where only 3 - 4 abilities are used like it's a mobile game but between offenses and defenses, altogether they shouldn't be more than 20-22.

20-22 would be good, in a perfect world. But, all things considered, it seems to be too low.

For example, among 20 spells, there might be 10 extremely niche spells, 4 rotational spells and 4 class shared spells, so there's no much left for a unique and interesting gameplay.

In a game where there are 35 spells, for example, even if 20 fit that categories, there's still a lot of room to offer a unique and interesting gameplay.

[Deleted]

God bless wikias.

Excluding stuff like teleports, foods, etc.:
Legion Frost: there are 17 baseline spells (8 class spells, 8 frost only spells, 1 artifact spell), a minimum of 16 and a maximum of 23 with talents.
WoD Frost: there are 19 baseline spells (12 class spells, 7 frost only spells), a minimum of 20 and a maximum of 26 with talents.
MoP Frost: there were 30 baseline spells (26 class spells, 4 frost only spells), a minimum of 32 and a maximum of 36 with talents.

Legion Arcane: there are 18 baseline spells (8 class spells, 9 arcane only spells, 1 artifact spell), a minimum of 18 and a maximum of 24 with talents.
WoD Arcane: there are 20 baseline spells (12 class spells, 8 arcane only spells), a minimum of 21 and a maximum of 27 with talents.
MoP Arcane: there were 32 baseline spells (27 class spells, 5 arcane only spells), a minimum of 34 and a maximum of 38 with talents.

Legion Fire: there are 17 baseline spells (8 class spells, 8 fire only spells, 1 artifact spell), a minimum of 17 and a maximum of 22 with talents.
WoD Fire: there are 18 baseline spells (11 class spells, 7 fire only spells), a minimum of 19 and a maximum of 25 with talents.
MoP Fire: there were 32 baseline spells (26 class spells, 6 fire only spells), a minimum of 34 and a maximum of 38 with talents.

I don't remember if in MoP Arcane Missiles was arcane only or class wide. In the latter case, add a +1 baseline spell to fire MoP and frost MoP.
MoP spell numbers might be inaccurate because the MoP talent calculator is all fucked up, but it should be 99% flawless (I mean at the very worst I am wrong about 1-2 spells I guess).
The rest should be quite accurate, if they are not, blame wikias.

Rip top right action bar number 1, top right action about number 2, middle right action bar, 2004-2014, we'll never forget you.

That's a blunt way to look at it. I would like to see statistics on the frequency of individual spells used in raiding. I wouldn't be surprised if the top 10 spells get a significant amount of time now compared to early versions of the game.

Also you excluded everything before MoP. MoP is relatively recently in the history of WoW to be honest and we still carry a lot of its designs and faults (RoP). I'm almost certain the game was way more simplistic in PvE at least, earlier.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Rip top right action bar number 1, top right action about number 2, middle right action bar, 2004-2014, we'll never forget you.

rip indeed

That's a blunt way to look at it. I would like to see statistics on the frequency of individual spells used in raiding

because designing mmo classes based purely on raiding requirements over everything else has certainly been a good thing for wow over recent years

I'm almost certain the game was way more simplistic in PvE at least, earlier.

wod pve is not miles ahead of mop pve, in terms of boss difficulty

[Deleted]

because designing mmo classes based purely on raiding mechanics and requirements over everything else has certainly been a good thing for wow over recent years

If you want to talk about PvP only then it's probably either the same or slightly more simple now. But I don't know if that's necessarily good or bad either way. What exactly is inherently right in having 30 buttons in PvP, that I doubt you used in such high frequency anyway.

wod pve is not miles ahead of mop pve, in terms of boss difficulty

And he excluded everything in the history of the game before MoP too. That's not an accurate description of history. It's not even a useful study because it might be best to look at the frequency of use of the top 10 or top 15 spells than just say a blunt total number.

The most likely scenario is that earlier iterations of the game have about 10 or 15 spells at least that are almost completely unused, especially in PvE.

It is clear that now the designers try to keep almost all of them used very frequently, in both PvP and PvE.

[Synadrasa]

Way to blow something out of proportion guys...

Edit: At the time I was using many passive talents, and also I had only spells on the bar that you REALLY need for raiding, so no sheep etc.

No reason to make false claims to prove your point.

[Deleted]

Ring + Poly + HS?

[Deleted]

You have a racial ability there and a ring and is cone of cold removed in legion? I think this discussion is getting a bit silly though because you have to look at the substance, not at the bulk number of spells, if you actually use them, and when you use them if they are fun. I think the only area currently that warrants some discussion is the spellstealing and decursing thing (I heard they are both removed) because they were often fun to be used properly but of course they were used rarely and the spells removed often felt like very artificially placed gimmicks to excuse the existence of the spells.

[Synadrasa]

Not sure why you showed 3 pictures of the same thing. Everything looks pretty similar except frostfire bolt being gone and now we have ebonbolt.