1. #1
    Banned GennGreymane's Avatar
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    Catalan parliament votes to break with Spain

    http://www.politico.eu/article/catal...ain-artur-mas/

    Catalan parliament votes to break with Spain
    Pro-independence parties obtained a majority of seats in September’s regional election.
    By HANS VON DER BURCHARD 11/9/15, 1:53 PM CET Updated 11/9/15, 2:12 PM CET
    The Catalan regional parliament adopted Monday a 9-point resolution declaring the official beginning of separation from Spain, despite the adamant opposition of Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy and the Constitutional Court.

    Following a heated-up debate, 72 of the 135 representatives voted for the bid, with 63 votes against.

    The independence plan, initiated by Catalan regional President Artur Mas, demands a “massive, sustainable and peaceful” secession from Spain, that must empower “citizens at all levels” and “is not subject to decisions of the institutions in Spain, including the Constitutional Court.”

    Spain’s Constitutional Court ruled last year that a planned referendum on independence was unlawful; It went ahead anyway, as a non-binding vote, and about 80 percent of voters said they wanted to break with Spain.

    Raül Romeva, head of the pro-independence party Junts pel Sí (Together for Yes), said the declaration follows a “clear demand” of the Catalan people.

    In Catalan regional elections on September 27, Junts pel Sí and the far-left Candidatura d’Unitat Popular (CUP), which is also in favor of independence, achieved a majority in terms of seats, but short of a majority in terms of their percentage share of the vote, which came in at 47.8 percent.

    Proponents of separation from Spain argue that as well as the two pro-independence parties who voted for secession in September, a third group — the left-wing Catalunya Sí que es Pot (Catalonia Yes We Can) — did not take a clear stand on the issue. Taking out their ‘neutral’ vote of 8.94 percent, a majority of the votes would have gone to the pro-independence camp.

    Antonio Baños, a former freelance journalist, finds himself settling into a new seat — here last week in the Catalan Parliament.
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    “No matter how you count, in votes or in seats, the result of the elections expresses a clear will,” Romeva said.

    MPs from the center-right Ciudadanos party, Rajoy’s conservative Popular Party and the main opposition Socialist Worker’s Party lashed out at the declaration.

    “This is a provocation of democracy … and scorns the millions of Spanish people who fought for it,” said Inés Arrimadas of Ciudadanos. “We need to reform Spain, not break it.”

    The independence movement is shaking Spanish politics just weeks before national elections to be held on December 20. Rajoy said last month that as long as he is in power, “I will guarantee that what is written in this resolution will not enter into force.”

    A new term for Mas as Catalan president will also be submitted to MPs Monday afternoon, in what is expected to be a much closer vote.

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  2. #2
    How does this actually work out, anyone know? I'm unfamiliar with Spain's political system and whether the Catalan Parliament actually wields enough power or whether the main body will just veto this down.

  3. #3
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    How does this actually work out, anyone know? I'm unfamiliar with Spain's political system and whether the Catalan Parliament actually wields enough power or whether the main body will just veto this down.
    The Spanish government can simply say they don't recognize it, most people also know that an actual split is not going to happen this is a power play and to send a message to the government in Madrid that they want more independence and be taken more seriously, since a lot of those voting yes for it feel that those in Madrid are not paying them enough attention.

    Also since this is a thing in Europe now, even in Belgium there are plenty that want the country to split it's not a realistic idea, the amount of agreements that need to be made between two parties bumping heads. Just look at the money problem, treasury? how is it split up? The debt the same way? The taxes? trade agreements do they just carry over? Now geographical, do other countries acknowledge it? Does the EU acknowledge it? What about EU level representation? Foreigner minister, prime minister? How many seats does catalonia get? How many seats does spain need to give up?

    It's a cluster fuck and a nice theatrical show but it really is just about more independence not full independence.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    How does this actually work out, anyone know? I'm unfamiliar with Spain's political system and whether the Catalan Parliament actually wields enough power or whether the main body will just veto this down.
    Sovereignty is not a devolved power. So the Catalonia Parliament doesn't have, in fact, that power. They may decide to not recognize the Constitutional Court, though.
    As to what the central body can do, the constitution has this to say:
    If a Self-governing Community does not fulfill the obligations imposed upon it by the Constitution or other laws, or acts in a way that is seriously prejudicial to the general interest of Spain, the Government, after having lodged a complaint with the President of the Self-governing Community and failed to receive satisfaction therefore, may, following approval granted by the overall majority of the Senate, take all measures necessary to compel the Community to meet said obligations, or to protect the abovementioned general interest.

    This doesn't actually work. It's political maneuvering for economic gain, and a dickmeasurig contest.
    Last edited by nextormento; 2015-11-09 at 02:52 PM.

  5. #5
    So we'll have to build another embassy and find another Ambassador? Kind of hard to imagine Spain without the Catalans. I guess when Muslims occupied Spain there was no Spain just a lot of little kingdoms.

    Queen Isabella was Catalan I think, didn't she drive the Muslims out and unite Spain?
    .

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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Hubcap View Post
    So we'll have to build another embassy and find another Ambassador? Kind of hard to imagine Spain without the Catalans. I guess when Muslims occupied Spain there was no Spain just a lot of little kingdoms.

    Queen Isabella was Catalan I think, didn't she drive the Muslims out and unite Spain?
    Catalonia has some 50 embassies herself around the globe already. They are independent, with their own independent budget that they use in building whatever they independently want, such as embassies.

    Before the Umayyad conquest/invasion/occupation, Iberia was ruled by a military monarchy, the Visigoth kingdom of Toledo.

    Isabella was Castillian. Ferdinand was from Aragon, which included the County of Barcelona at the time. Their marriage united what is understood to be modern Spain, but the territories retained their distinct institutions for a long while. Yes, they ended the 7 centuries-long process of Reconquista. They signed several pieces of law that once permitted but heavily taxed Islam as well as Judaism, and then later on, they forced conversion or expulsion from Castille (not from Aragon, not yet anyway).
    Last edited by nextormento; 2015-11-09 at 03:37 PM.

  7. #7
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hubcap View Post
    So we'll have to build another embassy and find another Ambassador? Kind of hard to imagine Spain without the Catalans. I guess when Muslims occupied Spain there was no Spain just a lot of little kingdoms.

    Queen Isabella was Catalan I think, didn't she drive the Muslims out and unite Spain?
    Plenty of countries in Europe already have embassies, trade missions and what not for their region, the more we move towards a united Europe the more the states within a country start to absorb more power from the federal level of said country. It might seem odd to some people who don't life in such countries but it's nothing special, see it as merely competition between states with some level of solidarity enforced by a federal government.

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    The Spanish constitution doesn't allow Catalonia to break with Spain and Spain has an interest in keeping Catalonia, because of their economy. It will be interesting to see how they will react. This is not some Scotland referendum where the UK said they'd allow sovereignty, Spain is trying not to crash their economy again.

  9. #9
    Catalonia always had a rather odd timing for pushing nationalism revendications.

  10. #10
    The Insane Revi's Avatar
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    Anyone familiar with this that can recap why they want to split?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by nextormento View Post
    Catalonia has some 50 embassies herself around the globe already. They are independent, with their own independent budget that they use in building whatever they independently want, such as embassies.

    Before the Umayyad conquest/invasion/occupation, Iberia was ruled by a military monarchy, the Visigoth kingdom of Toledo.

    Isabella was Castillian. Ferdinand was from Aragon, which included the County of Barcelona at the time. Their marriage united what is understood to be modern Spain, but the territories retained their distinct institutions for a long while. Yes, they ended the 7 centuries-long process of Reconquista. They signed several pieces of law that once permitted but heavily taxed Islam as well as Judaism, and then later on, they forced conversion or expulsion from Castille (not from Aragon, not yet anyway).
    While this is correct, Aragon and Catalonia were not subjected to the same laws. Special privilèges, rights, exemptions (very common in medieval Europe), ''fueros'' for the Spanish crown(s), were always given to Catalonia (and Navarra,for that matter), until the Bourbon Kings.
    Last edited by sarahtasher; 2015-11-09 at 06:08 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarahtasher View Post
    Catalonia always had a rather odd timing for pushing nationalism revendications.
    From what I gathered, it's just a push by businessmen to make Madrid a corporate paradise.

  13. #13
    Scarab Lord Azgraal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    How does this actually work out, anyone know? I'm unfamiliar with Spain's political system and whether the Catalan Parliament actually wields enough power or whether the main body will just veto this down.
    Under the Spanish constitution no region can unilateraly cecede from the nation. These growing signs of their will to become independant might add more pressure to the spanish government to decide on that based not on what they want but what the catalan people want (provided our EU overlords let them)

    Let it be noted that Cataluña has a different culture than the rest of Spain, a different official language and are only part of Spain by getting overpowered in the late medieval times (Their royal houses were joined by marriage and when their people tried to fight back the union years later they were not allowed the chance to be their own nation again).

    And to add, they tried to revolt and gain their independance once before, at the same time my ancestors here in Portugal revolted as well. The spanish crown had to decide where to allocate their army and they chose Cataluña, effectively allowing Portugal to sever its ties with the Filipinian dynasty, ending our status as a Vice-Royalty Kingdom. Poor catalans didn't have the same luck.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Revi View Post
    Anyone familiar with this that can recap why they want to split?
    Cultural differences that go back centuries (Cataluña has a different official language than the Madrid region for one), economical reasons, as in they think they'd be able to prosper with all the commodities they have without having to pay its dues to the centralized government, and political ulterior motives.

    What they're forgetting is that most major companies are already threatening to move out of the region if they seceded, plus the EU warning they'd have to apply again to the Euro like any other country, and also FCBarcelona would have to jump through hoops for a while before they'd be aproved to still play on the Spanish Premier League, like for example how Monaco plays on the French league.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by sarahtasher View Post
    While this is correct, Aragon and Catalonia were not subjected to the same laws. Special privilèges, rights, exemptions (very common in medieval Europe), ''fueros'' for the Spanish crown(s), were always given to Catalonia (and Navarra,for that matter), until the Bourbon Kings.
    Effectively the Bourbons "duplicated" the crown of Navarra, in both occasions being assimilated into another main crown, the French and the Spanish, the latter one being a unified kingdom with all other still existing royal regions in the Iberian Peninsula, except Portugal.
    Last edited by Azgraal; 2015-11-09 at 06:23 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    Whether or not Spain recognises Catalan is now irrelevant, they have the power to push their agenda with this vote. Whether or not they decide to go ahead and attempt the split is up for debate, but at the very least Spain has to take this seriously.

    Wish them luck regardless, everyone and every community has the right to self determination.
    No they don't. Considering that they didn't actually win the popular vote. They only got around 48% of the popular vote and they are governing by coalition. They CLAIM that the elections were a "referendum" on independence, which if we suppose it was, was still LOST by the independence faction.

    Regardless nobody is actually taking this seriously. EVERYONE knows that it's basically a move to get political leverage against the central government to squeeze out further concessions.

    Two key issues lie in taxation and judiciary power. Catalonia and its politicians are mired in corruption scandals and institutional inefficiency (not for the Central Government being much better to be honest), but curtailing the powers of oversight of Madrid would allow Catalan politicians to get away with some REALLY SHADY SHIT, at least on the short term.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    No they don't. Considering that they didn't actually win the popular vote. They only got around 48% of the popular vote and they are governing by coalition. They CLAIM that the elections were a "referendum" on independence, which if we suppose it was, was still LOST by the independence faction.
    No it wasn't 48%

    Catalunya yes we can while officially neutral unofficially are pro independence. The vast majority of their voters were for independence putting yes Much much closer to 56% than 48%

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Catalunya yes we can while officially neutral unofficially are pro independence. The vast majority of their voters were for independence
    And Aznar speaks Catalan privately.
    Besides, every party, bar the PP, is pro-independence. What they may not be is pro-separatism or nationalists. Those peddling the idiotic idea that this was implicit plebiscite made it pretty clear that votes for Unió and CSQEP were blank or yes/no. If we go by *their idea* (that doesn't align with reality), they only got around 48%.
    In any case, the elections were a sad joke clouded with high pitched rhetoric. That we're still picking the numbers apart on supposed plebiscites is testament to how stupid the process was. To elucidate a mandate for sovereignty on these dubious results is incredibly insulting towards the Catalan peoples.
    Last edited by nextormento; 2015-11-09 at 09:13 PM.

  17. #17
    Catalans do not seem the kind of people ready to spill blood for their "independence", so I not concerned with their populist rhetoric at all.

  18. #18
    I'm really getting tired of this. Central government needs to apply the constitution to dissolve their parlament, their police, their autonomy and incarcerate Mas, there is more than enough already to charge that bastard for treason and sedition.
    Enough is enough.
    Last edited by Borgia; 2015-11-10 at 12:06 AM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Borgia View Post
    I'm really getting tired of this. Central government needs to apply the constitution to dissolve their parlament, their police, their autonomy and incarcerate Mas, there is more than enough already to charge that bastard for treason and sedition.
    Enough is enough.
    There is a middle between secession an dissolution. If they can't reach it, we can hate on Mas as much as we want, but it'd represent a failure in Madrid. They are just measuring their political dicks leverage. Whatever they do, it'll weight on the upcoming general elections, which are not looking all that good for Rajoy.

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