Arcane plea to devs [Legion]

[Ironsquidlol]

I disagree with OP. His concerns are theoretical only. Evocation has a 1:30 CD, you can't burn for 90 seconds without going OOM, especially not using only ABs. Especially not when ABs seems extremely overpriced (at least in the blog post), so 4 AB(4) s will take you from 100% to 0%.

Actually this concept is the modification of the Cata mage, which had the adept mastery, but intellect also gave us mana. That was a problem, because it gave only max mana, so if a trinket or a weapon enchant procc'd, your mana% went down. In Legion, if we will have a mastery enchant proc, it won't matter anymore.

This means mana will be a real resource, you can just change your rotation if something really needs to die, without punishing your dps afterwards.

It's 5% base mana, not 5% total mana. This means the more mastery you get in Legion, the less you care about how much it costs. The big reason is because regen is based on your total mana... So you are double dipping regen since it's also tied into the new mastery.

After seeing that Warriors are getting some D3 abilities (Ignore Pain, lol) why can't they borrow abilities from Wizards for Arcane? It really feels like the fantasy of Arcane Mages is fulfilled by the D3 Wizard... That's a problem imo.

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We warp time and space? Could have fooled the fuck out of me with every spell having "Arcane" in its name.

Alter Time and Time Warp being our only "time" spells. Where are the "space" spells, exactly?

Arcane Blast
Arcane Missiles
Arcane Barrage
Arcane Explosion
Arcane Power
Arcane Orb
Arcane Charges
Arcane Intellect/Brilliance
Arcane Mind

Time Warp
Alter Time

<No space spells found>

Masters of time and space.

There's no Like button, so I'll quote reply and add to this.

I think the space spell is Blink with Distortion passive. You cover a lot of space while carrying that WSG flag. LOL

Could you imagine if any other spec had that many generically named spells/effects?

Arms Smash
Armswind
Armsbreaker
Arms Leap
Arms Shout
Arms Slam
Armsecute
Mortal Arms
Die by the Arms
Rallying Arms

or my favorite

Outlaw Strike
Outlaw Flurry
Outlaw Poison
Outlaw Rush
Outlaw Spree
Cloak of Outlaw
Outlaw Potency
Outlaw's Guile
Outlawstep
Outlaw Tempest
Marked for Outlaw

Really Blizzard? And one more thing. I'm sorry but "Arcane" and "mana" don't belong in the same fantasy... sorry. I realize Arcane gameplay has revolved around mana usage for years, but it still doesn't fit the fantasy.

[Deleted]

The new arcane desing is perfect (allows us mini burns on prio adds), T18 2/4p are both boring passives that makes our dps output totally random, i can't wait vendor selling this damn set.

[Ironsquidlol]

The new arcane desing is perfect (allows us mini burns on prio adds), T18 2/4p are both boring passives that makes our dps output totally random, i can't wait vendor selling this damn set.

Your post is contradicting. You like mini burns? Isn't that what the T18 2/4pc gives us? So you go through normal rotations conserving mana, Priority add spawns, you throw out your AM charges and you get 3+ time anomalies for high damage. It's actually the opposite of random, it's a controlled burst.

I believe your concern with T18 is around PoF and it's randomness. The T18 2/4 is in fact not that random, because you can hold AM charges to proc it (on a priority mob above or a mini burn in your case).

[Photek]

Your post is contradicting. You like mini burns? Isn't that what the T18 2/4pc gives us? So you go through normal rotations conserving mana, Priority add spawns, you throw out your AM charges and you get 3+ time anomalies for high damage. It's actually the opposite of random, it's a controlled burst.

I believe your concern with T18 is around PoF and it's randomness. The T18 2/4 is in fact not that random, because you can hold AM charges to proc it (on a priority mob above or a mini burn in your case).

How do you control a 35% proc? Holding onto Arcane Missiles charges to burst down an add outside of Arcane Power and getting 0 tier procs isn't a rare occurrence.

[Ironsquidlol]

How do you control a 35% proc? Holding onto AM charges and getting 0 tier procs isn't controlled.

You can always change the proc chance to per missile. That small randomness is still better than getting nothing but mana conservation from AM in Legion, casting AM is less damage than a 4AC AB, and it no longer matters how much mana you have. There's still the problem where you are holding onto missile charges not because you need them for some synergy, you instead hold onto them because you'd rather keep casting AB.

So AM needs to get buffed in some way that makes it worth casting other than conserving mana, that speaks to the fantasy of the class. Do you have a suggestion?

[Deleted]

I guess we have entirely different concepts about "mini burn". In my wocabulary mini-burn is a short duration, high dps phase that i can start intentionally on any targets. T18 bonuses are random procs that raises one's dps at random.

[Ironsquidlol]

I guess we have entirely different concepts about "mini burn". In my wocabulary mini-burn is a short duration, high dps phase that i can start intentionally on any targets. T18 bonuses are random procs that raises one's dps at random.

In your terms, isn't a mini burn just spamming AB? With maybe a trinket or weapon proc up? Isn't that random? See where I'm getting at? We only have 1 real burn cooldown, and it's not exactly mini.

And as I said, they can change the proc rate to per missile for a baseline. What's a better way to have a mini burn than launching AM procs (since procs are like mini burns)

[Photek]

You can always change the proc chance to per missile. That small randomness is still better than getting nothing but mana conservation from AM in Legion, casting AM is less damage than a 4AC AB, and it no longer matters how much mana you have. There's still the problem where you are holding onto missile charges not because you need them for some synergy, you instead hold onto them because you'd rather keep casting AB.

So AM needs to get buffed in some way that makes it worth casting other than conserving mana, that speaks to the fantasy of the class. Do you have a suggestion?

What? Currently Arcane Missiles is higher damage per cast than an Arcane Blast we have yet to see how it will be in Legion.

[roahn the warlock]

But spamming arcane blast endlessly is soooo much fun (Said literally no one ever)

[Ironsquidlol]

What? Currently Arcane Missiles is higher damage per cast than an Arcane Blast we have yet to see how it will be in Legion.

At certain haste levels above 35% yes, AB is more damage per cast because haste is applied before the enhanced haste from class perk.

[NPI]

It's 5% base mana, not 5% total mana.

Its 2.5% mana atm, so it is a huge increase atm. I agree that we should point out everything to let Blizzard fix the class as soon as possible, but still i don't share your concerns.
To be honest, i wonder what it means that in average gear we will have 20% mastery. Is that mean "blue" gear? or t19 heroic gear?

[Ironsquidlol]

Its 2.5% mana atm, so it is a huge increase atm. I agree that we should point out everything to let Blizzard fix the class as soon as possible, but still i don't share your concerns.
To be honest, i wonder what it means that in average gear we will have 20% mastery. Is that mean "blue" gear? or t19 heroic gear?

Technically its 2% right now, but again it's base mana, not mana added from mastery, otherwise the mastery is pointless. You could argue that 640 ilvl is average, because that's what they give you with 100 boost. You could argue 670 because of current blue level pvp ilvl. I don't think "in average gear" should be a real judge of mastery levels since the average geared player may not min/max. Happens every xpac though, you play one spec because it's OP until another spec scales harder. Just trying to avoid that, because I believe you should play what you want without having people sneer at your spec choice because it's not as good.

[Deleted]

In your terms, isn't a mini burn just spamming AB? With maybe a trinket or weapon proc up? Isn't that random? See where I'm getting at? We only have 1 real burn cooldown, and it's not exactly mini.

And as I said, they can change the proc rate to per missile for a baseline. What's a better way to have a mini burn than launching AM procs (since procs are like mini burns)

May i ask your raiding experiences? If you spam AB on prio targets you will end up with an unoptimal mana level (40-70%) and your dps will be ridiculusly low until the next Evocation. Current arcane mage cannot do mini bursts, it has one long conserve phase (with minor dps fluctuations of course) and a short nuke phase. Just check any HFC log from a better (not bad) arcane player on wlogs and you will see the pattern yourself.

[Komman]

It's 5% base mana, not 5% total mana. This means the more mastery you get in Legion, the less you care about how much it costs. The big reason is because regen is based on your total mana... So you are double dipping regen since it's also tied into the new mastery.

I think you have a huge misunderstanding of how mana works.

Regen is computed from base mana. This can be seen from Gnomes having the same mana regen as other players. Mastery increasing mana regen is just a counterpart to mastery increasing your mana pool. Both of which increase at the same rate.

[Wilderness]

Your post is contradicting. You like mini burns? Isn't that what the T18 2/4pc gives us? So you go through normal rotations conserving mana, Priority add spawns, you throw out your AM charges and you get 3+ time anomalies for high damage. It's actually the opposite of random, it's a controlled burst.

I believe your concern with T18 is around PoF and it's randomness. The T18 2/4 is in fact not that random, because you can hold AM charges to proc it (on a priority mob above or a mini burn in your case).

T18 is completely random. Its a proc off of a proc. That's about as random as it gets and its certainly not controlled in any way.

A mini-burn is exactly that - choosing to burn more of your mana than you normally would because you want some burst damage. Doing more damage because you have a proc up is not at all the same thing. T18 does nothing for mini-burns, having multiple procs up doesn't alter your rotation at all, nor does a trinket proc (that's not PoF), nor does a weapon enchant proccing. There's no mini-burns there because there's absolutely no changes to your rotation. Its just a period of increased damage that happens whenever you get procs.

Right now if you really need an add to die ASAP and you're in the conserve phase, you either are limited in your damage or you burn past 93% and screw your damage for the rest of that conserve phase after that add is dead. In Legion, from what they've described, that won't be the case. You will want to burn all of your mana by the time Evo is off CD, but you could go 100% to 0% in one big burst, or you could burst 3 times for 33% or twice for 50% and so on. You can adjust your damage based on what you need during the fight. That's a lot better flexibility and allows you to change what you're doing in a fight if needed - yeah, that add normally dies on time but someone fucked up and we need it dead now: great, burn 40% of your mana to burst it down. If you drop to 60% mana now during your conserve phase in that same situation your dps goes to hell.

[Polarthief]

What about blink, blink is a space spell surely?

Teleporting and Invisibility have been well-known spells of typical wizardry (and therefore, Arcane, since the "iconic wizard" has always pulled from the Arcane).

Space spells are more what the Wizard in D3 has: Throwing galaxies at people.

[Ironsquidlol]

I think you have a huge misunderstanding of how mana works.

Regen is computed from base mana. This can be seen from Gnomes having the same mana regen as other players. Mastery increasing mana regen is just a counterpart to mastery increasing your mana pool. Both of which increase at the same rate.

I don't think I have a huge misunderstanding of how mana works. And you presented no evidence on why you would say that.

Base mana doesn't exist in WoD, everyone has 160,000. So when I say base mana in legion, its the mana you get at level 110, and then mastery is counted as total mana, not base. Regen does not specifically say it is based off "base" mana again because base mana doesn't exist in WoD, it's just mana.

It says it increases mana pool and regen. That's too vague for what you're saying and probably needs clarification from the Devs. When I hear it increases regen, it's a % change to regen based on mastery %, otherwise you would word it differently wouldn't you think?

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T18 is completely random. Its a proc off of a proc. That's about as random as it gets and its certainly not controlled in any way.

A mini-burn is exactly that - choosing to burn more of your mana than you normally would because you want some burst damage. Doing more damage because you have a proc up is not at all the same thing. T18 does nothing for mini-burns, having multiple procs up doesn't alter your rotation at all, nor does a trinket proc (that's not PoF), nor does a weapon enchant proccing. There's no mini-burns there because there's absolutely no changes to your rotation. Its just a period of increased damage that happens whenever you get procs.

Right now if you really need an add to die ASAP and you're in the conserve phase, you either are limited in your damage or you burn past 93% and screw your damage for the rest of that conserve phase after that add is dead. In Legion, from what they've described, that won't be the case. You will want to burn all of your mana by the time Evo is off CD, but you could go 100% to 0% in one big burst, or you could burst 3 times for 33% or twice for 50% and so on. You can adjust your damage based on what you need during the fight. That's a lot better flexibility and allows you to change what you're doing in a fight if needed - yeah, that add normally dies on time but someone fucked up and we need it dead now: great, burn 40% of your mana to burst it down. If you drop to 60% mana now during your conserve phase in that same situation your dps goes to hell.

Yeah my argument is that AM needs something else. It served a higher purpose conserving above 93% now(and to proc T18 and ticks for PoF), but has less of a purpose in Legion currently. I suggested to keep T18 proc baseline with some minor tweaks to reduce some of the RNG and power (35% proc per missile chance, and less dmg buff %). I'm trying to raise awareness that Arcane is quickly becoming a dull spec to play, especially after T18/PoF is gone. Feel free to make other suggestions.

I mean they already changed how heating up works because they don't want to confuse you about procs and whether you should hold them or not. If you are burning a mob, or boss, you probably would keep spamming AB in Legion because of the shorter cast time, no spell travel time, especially if mastery/mana scales too hard late game. Then we are ignoring spell procs again.

[Komman]

I don't think I have a huge misunderstanding of how mana works. And you presented no evidence on why you would say that.

Base mana doesn't exist in WoD, everyone has 160,000. So when I say base mana in legion, its the mana you get at level 110, and then mastery is counted as total mana, not base. Regen does not specifically say it is based off "base" mana again because base mana doesn't exist in WoD, it's just mana.

It says it increases mana pool and regen. That's too vague for what you're saying and probably needs clarification from the Devs. When I hear it increases regen, it's a % change to regen based on mastery %, otherwise you would word it differently wouldn't you think?

Base mana does exist. Base mana right now is 160,000 for all players at level 100. Base mana regen is 1.8% per second, which corresponds to 2880 mana per second. This is then increased by haste. Arcane Blast costs 2% base mana. This means it starts at 3200, and then 6400, 9600, 12800, 16000.

Here is a reference by Celestalon to base mana: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/3...ssion/#post128

Posted by Mumrit
What's the mana regen rate of arcane mages now that the 90 tier is decoupled from mana?

(1+Haste)*1.8% of base max mana per second.
EDIT: Fixed. Originally said 0.4%, but forgot that Mages have a hidden passive which gives them 4.5x.

Another reason why we know base mana does exist, is because Gnomes have a passive that increases maximum mana by 5% (to 168000). However, all their regen values and spell costs stay the same as other races. Arcane Blast still costs 3200, 6400, 9600, 12800, 16000. That is evidence of spells and regen going off base mana, instead of max mana.

The result of this is that mastery will increase mana pool and mana regen at the same rate. I do not see any reason to think mana regen will "double dip" on it. The goal is to increase the total amount of mana available to a player linearly. For example, over a fight, 10% mastery will mean 10% more mana to spend, and 20% mastery will mean 20% more mana to spend. How is that vague?

[Deleted]

Didn´t look like anyone mentioned it already from just eyeing through but if I´m not remembering wrong the last incarnation of innervate resto druids had before it got removed were based around spirit for the mana regen, pretty likely this will be the case for this time around too and will kind of be exclusive for healers once again.

[Vynestra]

It's 5% base mana, not 5% total mana. This means the more mastery you get in Legion, the less you care about how much it costs. The big reason is because regen is based on your total mana... So you are double dipping regen since it's also tied into the new mastery.

After seeing that Warriors are getting some D3 abilities (Ignore Pain, lol) why can't they borrow abilities from Wizards for Arcane? It really feels like the fantasy of Arcane Mages is fulfilled by the D3 Wizard... That's a problem imo.

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There's no Like button, so I'll quote reply and add to this.

I think the space spell is Blink with Distortion passive. You cover a lot of space while carrying that WSG flag. LOL

Could you imagine if any other spec had that many generically named spells/effects?

Arms Smash
Armswind
Armsbreaker
Arms Leap
Arms Shout
Arms Slam
Armsecute
Mortal Arms
Die by the Arms
Rallying Arms

or my favorite

Outlaw Strike
Outlaw Flurry
Outlaw Poison
Outlaw Rush
Outlaw Spree
Cloak of Outlaw
Outlaw Potency
Outlaw's Guile
Outlawstep
Outlaw Tempest
Marked for Outlaw

Really Blizzard? And one more thing. I'm sorry but "Arcane" and "mana" don't belong in the same fantasy... sorry. I realize Arcane gameplay has revolved around mana usage for years, but it still doesn't fit the fantasy.

I actually don't mind the generically named spells. I kinda like it. It's unique to Arcane. And it's one of the few specs it'd work as you demonstrated lol. It's not laziness persay, but what are you going to call a giant blast of arcane energy? An arcane blast. What about a barrage of arcane energy? Arcane barrage! What about missles of arcane energy?...you get the point. Idk what else you'd call the spells.

I do agree the master of time and space is missing from arcane. But let's wait and see what the new talents are. I definitely think we need more time and potentially space themed moves. I'm almost positive we're getting black hole as a talent in Legion. Kinda excited to see all the new talents, gonna be a lot of cool ones I think.

OHOOHOHOH...Supernova is a spacey type of spell. Theres one! I kinda wish we got shooting stars rather than arcane orb for the meteor-esque spell. If we get blackhole, I mean blackhole and supernova are pretty space themed. What else could you ask for. Gravity themed spells? Rename slow to Gravity slow? lol