[HOLY] Holy Sh*t!: Legion Edition

[Donatist]

Could be. I mean Im playing it either way. Im not a hardcore raider anymore and I always enjoy playing my paladin. I would assume your right though.

Isnt serenity the guild that formed from the majority of world first Method players? I thought Aladya was in on all of Method's WF vods from this expansion. I am not sure i know who Chris Potter is from method. One thing for sure is depending on how you rank the healer, overall content str vs a very specific str. I think overall Pally is still a good healer but in the micro situation of world first mythic guilds they may not be. As I am no longer hc mythic player i care more about playing an enjoyable class rather than what is the better class. it is a shame that the two cannot be one.

[Taeldorian]

Isnt serenity the guild that formed from the majority of world first Method players? I thought Aladya was in on all of Method's WF vods from this expansion. I am not sure i know who Chris Potter is from method. One thing for sure is depending on how you rank the healer, overall content str vs a very specific str. I think overall Pally is still a good healer but in the micro situation of world first mythic guilds they may not be. As I am no longer hc mythic player i care more about playing an enjoyable class rather than what is the better class. it is a shame that the two cannot be one.

Yeah, agreed. I dont raid hardcore anymore, just in a casual normal/heroic guild and I do a lot of pvp. I usually main paladin anyway and I really do like the way holy paladin plays. Not sure why, I just really like it. So its going to be my main for the 9th year now I believe.

I have no idea how its going to be for world first raiding though. I do like seeing how mythic players choose their comp though. As for Aladya, you would have to ask him about that. Im not sure, all I know is they are both world first mythic raiders, and they have different opinions on how holy paladin is going to perform. So, I guess were just going to have to wait and see.

[Nedralixx]

In my opinion, we should take everything being said with a grain of salt from sources that are top 5 players. These raid teams want to hide information about compositions regarding Legion as they would give out valuable information for free. Maybe paladins are great for 5 encounters and shit for others. We won't know till we have solid proofs.

[Deleted]

Okay, well what about Chris potter? Hes in Method, whose been a world first guild for a really really long time. He says the three best healers are Rdruid, Hpally and Rsham, while Aladya who is in Serenity which is a competitive world first guild (Not sure if theyve gotten world first yet, dont think so but Im not sure} says Hpaladins are bad. Both are really good players, both are in the top 5 I believe. I know method is, not quite sure about Serenity. So, its still confusing.

Not comparing the two, but they are both competitive world first players, so the clashing opinions are really confusing.

Method = OLD Rapid eye movement (top 10 guild) with 3 members from old method.
Serenity = Old method (multiple world first guild) minus 3 members.


Also i think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Pala is not as bad as some say, but maybe not as good as some want (or think, in some cases).

[Deleted]

I have a feeling that the problem stems from the requirement of having to stand still to do everything and anything?
Except some instant cooldowns and the health take-away heal(And LoD too but with a twist, gotta be behind the team and moveee...)

Don't all the others have some sort of mobility?

Druids, cat form or some speed boost, idk haven't checked em yet. Shamans with wolf. Monks with multiple elements IIRC. My healing officer raids one as a main and last we tested some stuff with him last week he seemed to be blinking around now, so there's that. Priests feather, etc.

Holy pala? A talent you need to spec into to get any sort of movement... And what's funnier, it's on a row of talents where you'd actually like to use all the other ones instead.

While there's nothing wrong with the paladin throughput wise it seems, they are lacking in movement, is my opinion.


Oh and I am going to be maining one as well, for the 3rd expansion in a row now.

[Smag]

I mean, having to stand and heal was always our shtick (except for PVP where you were doing literally the opposite).
Looking back to TBC times, I think now I have more healing mobility than ever. Though, having EF ticks and subsequent mastery shields on targets while moving is something I will miss. We can only react to damage now. The only proactive healing ability we have is our Artifact ability. And Bestow Faith, which is so damn clunky. Holy paladin gameplay in legion became a whack-a-mole times infinity.
Don't know how to feel about our auras. It's cool, but is it "meaningful in Mythic" cool? I don't think so.

[Harbour]

I dont know how about Legion content but in prepatch i have much more fun playing Holy than ever before. I love our mastery, i love the variety of instant cast spells+3 instant aoe heals(use hammer and prism)(4 if aura of mercy to count)+necessity to heal in close combat (i damage here too). Truly feel like a combat warrior medic. As for mobility i think its okay. We dont have much casting spells (flash?) to stand, so we can run around the battle free. Of course, if theyd add the long arm of the law to bust our speed with judgement and/or holy shock for a 3-4 seconds it would be the cherry on the top of the cake.

[escapez]

I'm playing holy Paladin since Cata and really enjoy it. But if i look at it now, as mentioned 10000 times from other Players, i feel that a holy Paladin isn't really necessary anymore?

Beside fun and gameplay etc. what do you guys think about it? Is there a niche for Hpallys in Legion? Is our singeltarget heal as strong as it was? Is there a fix raidslot for us, or do others also fit in our role. (and i know there are other restrictions for world top 100 guilds - i just wanted to know the Overall Feelings from this Forum about pala -> without " i love holy Paladins because they glow and i like them"

Thx.

[Deleted]

I'm playing holy Paladin since Cata and really enjoy it. But if i look at it now, as mentioned 10000 times from other Players, i feel that a holy Paladin isn't really necessary anymore?

I feel this gets to the crux of some of the complaints I've seen about Holy. Not that we're not viable, just that we're not necessary. Why is not being necessary a bad thing? They've been trying to move away from "necessary" classes since the beginning of Wrath.

If you want your spot, earn it by healing well. If you're not in a bleeding edge mythic progression group, you'll be fine as long as you can perform. If you can't perform, it's not the class design - you're doing it wrong.

I think that the lack of mobility is a legitimate concern. The lack of engaging gameplay is a legitimate concern. I don't agree with either, but I can see the point of view. But not being necessary anymore just smells of entitlement to me.

[Smag]

All I can say is that doing Mythic+ on a HPally compared to a Rdruid (undergeared) is a spasmic torture.

[escapez]

I feel this gets to the crux of some of the complaints I've seen about Holy. Not that we're not viable, just that we're not necessary. Why is not being necessary a bad thing? They've been trying to move away from "necessary" classes since the beginning of Wrath.

If you want your spot, earn it by healing well. If you're not in a bleeding edge mythic progression group, you'll be fine as long as you can perform. If you can't perform, it's not the class design - you're doing it wrong.

I think that the lack of mobility is a legitimate concern. The lack of engaging gameplay is a legitimate concern. I don't agree with either, but I can see the point of view. But not being necessary anymore just smells of entitlement to me.

nah i can perfom and i raided always between world 200-680 - but thats not the Point and ist not about me. as numbers show a pala can perfom well and it's not the throughput discussion here. i just wanted to know, if the niche is still there, where Hpalys find there place. do you need a holy Paladin for tanks to survive ? and as i said, not on a World Top 100 lvl.
What do you guys think about

[Deleted]

All I can say is that doing Mythic+ on a HPally compared to a Rdruid (undergeared) is a spasmic torture.

At what level are you running into problems with the Paladin?

[Smag]

At what level are you running into problems with the Paladin?

I wouldn't say problems. But it's just much much easier to control the group's hp, tank's in particular, with a Dru on lvl 11~12-ish than with a Pally. Especially on a movement heavy bosses, like Serpentrix, for example. As always, the strength of Hpally is our CDs. But in between - it's spamming flash and praying that your tank has something to push if you don't crit and other peeps don't get in some shit while you do that. It's like solo healing a side on a mythic Blast Furnace, but with ress sickness.

[CloudedInSanity]

MFW people think Paladin's are bad at Mythic + compared to Druids but aren't looking at any of the other Healers.

[Supliftz]

MFW people think Paladin's are bad at Mythic + compared to Druids but aren't looking at any of the other Healers.

People only really compare paladins to druids because it's the only healer that's superior to paladin. Every other healer is basically in line with each other in mythic +.

[Taeldorian]

People only really compare paladins to druids because it's the only healer that's superior to paladin. Every other healer is basically in line with each other in mythic +.

This entirely.

I wonder if druids are going to remain like that since they are clearly the superior choice to every other healer in mythic+. If they get toned down a little bit I wonder if they would be on par.

Ive been doing fine running mythic+ at levels 7 and below. Havent tried 8 or anything above yet, but so far Ive had a good time.

[Tomana]

I wonder if druids are going to remain like that since they are clearly the superior choice to every other healer in mythic+. If they get toned down a little bit I wonder if they would be on par.

Ironbark and a combat rez alone makes druids OP for mythic+. There is no way those get removed or nerfed.

- - - Updated - - -

If you want your spot, earn it by healing well.

Except that you have to compete against classes who can make 25-30% of their total healing by pressing one button such as tranquillity -_-

[Genzen Han]

BR and Heroism are such staple tools that I think it should be something that everyone has, but they all share a CD or there's the exhaustion debuff so they can only be used once a fight or once per X minutes, then classes should be balanced around there always being a BR and a Heroism available, otherwise the classes that have those abilities are just too powerful.

Look at all the CDs a Resto shaman has with Hero, HTT, SLT, and many talents to give more. Look at Resto Druid with BR, Stealth, Tranq, and 1min Ironbark. If you want other classes to compete then either balance the CDs, or make more powerful normal heals for the classes with less CDs, such that they're less likely to need a CD because their 'rotational' spells are strong enough to keep up with damage that the 'rotational' heals of a Shaman/Druid might not handle, thus forcing them to use their CDs more, but they have more of them, so it works out.

I dunno, I just think certain CDs need to be group/raid baseline, and other huge raid CDs need better balancing.


On a side note, for the first talent row for Holy Paladin, are we still agreeing that Bestow Faith is the 'go to' choice? I read that Hammer is kinda weak and isn't worth going with, and I'm not sure about Crusader's Might. Holy Shock and LoD seem really powerful and getting more of them definitely looks good, but I'm not sure we can spare the GCD's to do a CS instead of a Holy Light/Flash of Light, and I'm also not sure what the effect on mana would be (not sure if more HS and LoD would be more costly than using Holy Lights instead of CS in between LoD and HS).

[Tiberria]

BR and Heroism are such staple tools that I think it should be something that everyone has, but they all share a CD or there's the exhaustion debuff so they can only be used once a fight or once per X minutes, then classes should be balanced around there always being a BR and a Heroism available, otherwise the classes that have those abilities are just too powerful.

Look at all the CDs a Resto shaman has with Hero, HTT, SLT, and many talents to give more. Look at Resto Druid with BR, Stealth, Tranq, and 1min Ironbark. If you want other classes to compete then either balance the CDs, or make more powerful normal heals for the classes with less CDs, such that they're less likely to need a CD because their 'rotational' spells are strong enough to keep up with damage that the 'rotational' heals of a Shaman/Druid might not handle, thus forcing them to use their CDs more, but they have more of them, so it works out.

I dunno, I just think certain CDs need to be group/raid baseline, and other huge raid CDs need better balancing.

As far as battle rezzes, the main thing that makes having them OP in 5 mans is the fact that you don't have a group wide shared b-rezz counter/timer in 5 mans like you do in a raid encounter. As a result, you very well could cast 4 brezzes on a single 5 man boss if you had the classes capable of it. They could probably fix that by applying the raid b-rezz counter system to 5 mans (or at least Mythic+/CM level 5 man content). If you did that, there isn't all that much value to multiple b-rezzes, and you have 4 classes that have access to it, so it wouldn't matter nearly as much.

As far as Bloodlust/Heroism, you can already cheaply get drums that give you 25% Bloodlust instead of the 30% Shaman/Mage effect. That's close enough to the same effect that it doesn't really gimp you if you have to use the drums instead of a Time Warp/Bloodlust because of your group comp. I don't think the Bloodlust thing is all that big of an issue.

In terms of balancing rotational spells out so classes with stronger healing CDs have weaker baseline spells, that already happens. Classes are balanced around total raid healing throughput. The issue is the throughput raid CDs in Legion are only ~10% of your total healing (not the ridiculous 30% someone mentioned), so even with that balance, you'd probably only see a ~5% variance in the power of "rotational heals" because every one has at least some level of cooldown power. The real issue more than anything is that 5 mans are probably just inherently not balancable period without wrecking raid balance. There will always be more optimal 5 man comps, and you're not going to be able to fix that without making those optimal specs useless in raids. Ultimately, 5 man balance doesn't really matter all that much. Mythic+ gear ilvl gains hard cap at a + level that any competent player irregardless of spec should be able to hit (I think they said it caps at +6?). Mythic+ keystones higher than that are just there for bragging rights and aren't all that different from competing for realm first times in CMs in MoP/WoD. They never cared about balancing classes around competitive CM times just like they will never care about balancing around Mythic+ as long as every spec is capable of getting to the max ilvl level.

[Genzen Han]

I really like your post - it makes a lot of sense.

I actually didn't remember about drums; I'll definitely stock up on those for my five mans. I also think you're right about B Rez in 5-mans, and I think your idea of applying the raid b-rezz counter system to them would be a good idea. That way, like you said, you can't stack five rezzes into one group and have such an advantage there.