[HOLY] Holy Sh*t!: Legion Edition

[Unir]

Mmm, enter the trolls.

This is why we can't have nice things.

[MCC]

Mmm, enter the trolls.

This is why we can't have nice things.

You haven't been around for WoD Beta discussions, have you? This is nothing. Some of the trolls we had back then were toxic to the extreme.

That said, the night's still young...

[Rorschachs]

Mmm, enter the trolls.

This is why we can't have nice things.

What these guys say have no impact on our class, we will see what Blizz decides to do.

[cqwrteur]

if you really want a bad mastery, feel free to have gots for 4 years. i certainly do not mind plaguing holy paladins with the shittiest mastery to ever enter the game

You have become a person.

- - - Updated - - -

What these guys say have no impact on our class, we will see what Blizz decides to do.

They decide to make HPal overpowered in every patch.

[Pasture]

To me the main issue with the mastery isn't that there'll be some fights it will be shitty on (though that too will be frustrating). It's the fact the mastery benefits from stacking but Holy Paladins have a pretty weak stacked healing toolkit. I think thematically it's poor. If they want us as a single target specialist then they should create a mastery that encourages single target healing rather than one that seems to favour stacked healing, which other healers do much better.

[Deleted]

The mastery don't seem to be a pb, we don't know the spell power, tuning will be done after. The pb is, i don't see how to min/max this thing with my poor mobility.
So for the moment it will just be a passive buff of heal with no price for good play. Not a big issue but sad to replace a mastery with a specific use (not big one but we do what we can^^) with a passive buff who noboby care.

[IxilaFA]

^

Guess things sound different when it's Aladya speaking. I thought you liked the mastery.

It sounds different because you and Aladya are arguing two totally separate points for why the Mastery is bad, and you're also both arguing from two totally separate viewpoints.

Aladya's concern is valid: they are taking away IH Mastery and replacing it with something that may not always be 100% effective, without rewarding us with anything in return to keep us competitive.

Your concern is invalid: That in order to be competitive at all with this Mastery, we have to chase people around which just won't happen. This Mastery will have very little impact on our actual playstyle. If the numbers are solid even at a decently long range, then we will stack with the ranged as we always do. If the numbers are garbage even at short ranges, we will just not be as strong. Unless the Mastery is going to be used as an icing on the cake, and our numbers aren't tuned around it (which won't happen either.)

Aladya is also arguing from the perspective of a world-first raider who has an ideal raid group and ideal healing classes to support them. If Holy Paladins are even 1% less competitive in certain scenarios, then it's possible they won't have a world first spot. This doesn't effect 99.99% of the raiders out there who don't need to make any strat or comp decisions based around Holy Paladin mastery.


All this said, I think we should wait and see. Not a big fan of losing IH, but it had to be done. We'll see what the numbers look like. All due respect to Aladya, but he has also decried the end of Holy Paladin for every tier since Siege of Orgrimmar and we're still not dead yet. So we have to see what the numbers look like in beta, and then see how the fights support the numbers to determine whether Holy Pallies are at risk or not.

- - - Updated - - -

To me the main issue with the mastery isn't that there'll be some fights it will be shitty on (though that too will be frustrating). It's the fact the mastery benefits from stacking but Holy Paladins have a pretty weak stacked healing toolkit. I think thematically it's poor. If they want us as a single target specialist then they should create a mastery that encourages single target healing rather than one that seems to favour stacked healing, which other healers do much better.

This is my issue with it, and what we need to be focusing on. Blizzard is encouraging us to become stacked healers without giving us a better stacked healing toolkit. Shamans will always be superior in that regard.

Maybe they have something up their sleeve with Holy Radiance?

[Myllior]

Aladya's concern is valid: they are taking away IH Mastery and replacing it with something that may not always be 100% effective, without rewarding us with anything in return to keep us competitive.

Without making any comment on Lightbringer's effectiveness or lack thereof, this seems to be a common theme running through the healer Masteries that we've seen in the previews; their effectiveness is almost always going to be less than 100% of what is implied by the tooltip (Druid Mastery aside due to its intentionally low percentage). I mean, we've got,

Druid: Healing increased based on number of HoTs on target.
Monk: Targeted heals also heal the target for another small amount.
Paladin: Healing increased based on proximity to target.
Discipline: Increases Atonement healing.
Holy Priest: Direct heals place a HoT effect on the target.
Shaman: Healing increased based on health percentage currently missing on target.

So all of the healer Masteries vary with some factor and/or do not affect every healing spell in their corresponding specialisation's toolkit.

[btard]

Mastery: Lightbringer Proximity to your target causes your spells to heal for up to 30% (with Mastery from typical gear) more.	Mastery: Deep Healing Increases the potency of your healing spells by up to 60% (with Mastery from typical gear), based on the current health level of your target (lower health targets are healed for more).
Holy Shock 1.5% Mana, 40 yd range, Instant, 10 sec cooldown Instantly trigger a burst of Light on the target, dealing moderate Holy damage to an enemy, or moderate healing to an ally. Holy Shock has double the normal critical strike chance.	Riptide 1.5% Mana, 40 yd range, Instant, 6 sec cooldown Restorative waters wash over a friendly target, healing them for a moderate amount and an additional moderate amount over 18 sec.
Light of Dawn 4.0% Mana, 1.5 sec cast, 12 sec cooldown Unleash a wave of healing energy before you, healing up to 5 injured allies within a 15 yd frontal cone for a moderate amount.	Wellspring 2.4% Mana, 30 yd range, 1.5 sec cast, 12 sec cooldown Create a surge of water that flows forward, healing all friendly targets in a wide arc in front of you for a strong amount.

looks like our spells are a worse versions of shaman ones

[Dreamguard]

I think it's a little naive to try to compare these spells together.

Our masteries function very differently, our Holy Shock's CD is lowered by haste, and we don't know enough about Wellspring to know how it works.

[Hulahoops]

I wonder if Martyr is going to have a built-in safety mechanism. When I first read the preview for the spell, I immediately thought of Soraka in League. There's an ability that works in exactly the same way, you sacrifice your HP and heal someone else. However, if you get too low on HP that the next use of the spell would kill you, you can't even use it.

I hope they don't implement this kind of safety mechanism. It would take out a lot of the decision making process behind choosing when to use the spell, but I can honestly see it happening. Burning Rush turns off if you don't have the HP, and correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they eventually change Hellfire so you couldn't kill yourself with it?

[Floopa]

Mastery: Lightbringer Proximity to your target causes your spells to heal for up to 30% (with Mastery from typical gear) more.	Mastery: Deep Healing Increases the potency of your healing spells by up to 60% (with Mastery from typical gear), based on the current health level of your target (lower health targets are healed for more).
Holy Shock 1.5% Mana, 40 yd range, Instant, 10 sec cooldown Instantly trigger a burst of Light on the target, dealing moderate Holy damage to an enemy, or moderate healing to an ally. Holy Shock has double the normal critical strike chance.	Riptide 1.5% Mana, 40 yd range, Instant, 6 sec cooldown Restorative waters wash over a friendly target, healing them for a moderate amount and an additional moderate amount over 18 sec.
Light of Dawn 4.0% Mana, 1.5 sec cast, 12 sec cooldown Unleash a wave of healing energy before you, healing up to 5 injured allies within a 15 yd frontal cone for a moderate amount.	Wellspring 2.4% Mana, 30 yd range, 1.5 sec cast, 12 sec cooldown Create a surge of water that flows forward, healing all friendly targets in a wide arc in front of you for a strong amount.

looks like our spells are a worse versions of shaman ones

literally just compared a talent to a baseline spell

>paladin logic

[rubenmsalles]

The problem with legion h paladin are:
-LoD: back to fail cataclysm spell with a cd now. blizz can't learn from their own mistakes?
-mastery: need to write /rangexyards now with an addon to know if my heal is ok. a vanillia mechanic in a legion expansion. with no teleport, jumps, roll, etc, we are scrwed. in ani patchwerk/afk fight it will "work". actual pve and pvp will be a big fail. i don't know why all of you says that IL was a fail mastery. what do you want? mastery are to support you!
-light of the martyr: first of all, stop saying it is a heal. it is a LIFE TRANSFER with 2 resources to be casted (MANA and HP). if our tank have 500k hp an we have 200k, he's about to die and we cast lotm (with sacrifiying 50% of our hp to make it): tank hp 100k/500k, we sacrificate 100k from our 200, tank now have 200k, and if we comite suicide and cast again, tank will be at 300k hp. what kind of enourmus heal is this?. i don't think that it will heal more than holy light, seriously.

clunky mechanics to a more dinamic game. i hope that item sets and talents will be fix anything. predicted top healers: disc and shaman, then druid

[Leanne]

Am I the only one that liked the cone Light of Dawn (except when the cone graphics was bugged for blood elf and shot sideways)? Sure, it will sort of contradict the new mastery but it will also require some thought before using, which is lacking from our current toolkit.

Of course, there is always the chance it heals for nothing, no one uses it and it doesn't matter how it works at all.

[Deleted]

Am I the only one that liked the cone Light of Dawn (except when the cone graphics was bugged for blood elf and shot sideways)? Sure, it will sort of contradict the new mastery but it will also require some thought before using, which is lacking from our current toolkit.

Of course, there is always the chance it heals for nothing, no one uses it and it doesn't matter how it works at all.

I'm indifferent to the change, what do you mean by that it contradicts the mastery? It will be a positional based spell with short range, doesn't that go hand in hand with our mastery?

Didn't play in MoP so I don't know what LoD was like, but it sounds like it will be exactly the same as the Cataclysm LoD. There's been a lot of discussion in this thread regarding mastery and positioning, in the end your strats will always be based around stacking as much as possible. Paladins will just position themselves 1-3 yds behind everyone else.

[Leanne]

I'm indifferent to the change, what do you mean by that it contradicts the mastery? It will be a positional based spell with short range, doesn't that go hand in hand with our mastery?

Didn't play in MoP so I don't know what LoD was like, but it sounds like it will be exactly the same as the Cataclysm LoD. There's been a lot of discussion in this thread regarding mastery and positioning, in the end your strats will always be based around stacking as much as possible. Paladins will just position themselves 1-3 yds behind everyone else.

Well I wrote sort-of as we don't know how big the range for 100% effect will be. A lot of the fights nowadays don't really require a single point stack (and some actually punish it) but rather just a clump and if you have to be outside of it to ensure maximum number of targets, the ones on the other side might get lower mastery benefit. Again it depends on how they tune the mastery numbers.

[Deleted]

It's really interesting to see how things will work out in the end, but I don't think we should jump to conclussions just yet. Of all the spells we've seen so far Light of Dawn and Light of the Martyr bother me the most and need to be tweaked or reworked.

Light of Dawn has way too many requirements. It has a 1.5 seconds cast time. It has 12 seconds cooldown. Being a frontal cone it has a positioning requirement. It heals a limited number of people - 5. And on top of that it has limited range of 15 yards from the caster. I'm guessing by this spell alone that 15 yards will be the "maximum mastery benefit" range. If that is the case, our mastery doesn't seem that bad. But Light of Dawn as it is right now it just has way too many conditions to meet in order to be used effectively.

Many people have said this before, but one of the limitations has to go. It should imo at least be instant. I think that positioning ourselves correctly while running towards an injured group of people to heal them all with an "aimed" spell should be considered skilled enough, even by the Blizzard's Class Designers standards. I highly doubt they'll change it, so we'll have to live with it. (Or maybe the artifact will actually have a couple of slots dedicated to making it instant/heal more people/increase the range, who knows at the moment)

The second spell that really, really annoys me is Light of the Martyr. It uses both Health AND Mana as a resource. Why? The mana cost should just be removed. It would already be punishing enough if we have to sacrifice 10 to 20% of our HP and on top of that even pay mana for that. Really?! This might be just a speculation but it is a valid concern. I guess we'll have to wait for the Beta in order to get our questions answered.

[btard]

literally just compared a talent to a baseline spell

>paladin logic

ye, that makes the shaman one even better. you may swap it to something in case it sucks.

[Floopa]

ye, that makes the shaman one even better. you may swap it to something in case it sucks.

so what you're saying is

paladins have LoD and 5 talents vs shamans having 6 talents

okay then m8

[Glorious Leader]

It's really interesting to see how things will work out in the end, but I don't think we should jump to conclussions just yet. Of all the spells we've seen so far Light of Dawn and Light of the Martyr bother me the most and need to be tweaked or reworked.

Light of Dawn has way too many requirements. It has a 1.5 seconds cast time. It has 12 seconds cooldown. Being a frontal cone it has a positioning requirement. It heals a limited number of people - 5. And on top of that it has limited range of 15 yards from the caster. I'm guessing by this spell alone that 15 yards will be the "maximum mastery benefit" range. If that is the case, our mastery doesn't seem that bad. But Light of Dawn as it is right now it just has way too many conditions to meet in order to be used effectively.

Many people have said this before, but one of the limitations has to go. It should imo at least be instant. I think that positioning ourselves correctly while running towards an injured group of people to heal them all with an "aimed" spell should be considered skilled enough, even by the Blizzard's Class Designers standards. I highly doubt they'll change it, so we'll have to live with it. (Or maybe the artifact will actually have a couple of slots dedicated to making it instant/heal more people/increase the range, who knows at the moment)

The second spell that really, really annoys me is Light of the Martyr. It uses both Health AND Mana as a resource. Why? The mana cost should just be removed. It would already be punishing enough if we have to sacrifice 10 to 20% of our HP and on top of that even pay mana for that. Really?! This might be just a speculation but it is a valid concern. I guess we'll have to wait for the Beta in order to get our questions answered.

Honestly having it use health is kinda dumb. Unless the effeciency is way over board like you lose 10 hp and your target is healed for 100 or some ridiculous percentage. All it means is that you'll end up having to heal.yourself next or one of your other healers will. It's good they want to give us a mobile but they've already got one. Word of glory. Just remove the holy power cost.