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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschachs View Post
    Im sorry, did you actually do Mythic Blast Furnace during progression? Also some awareness isn't going to be enough if you want to know where that %3 HP Mage has blinked to 3 seconds ago that you need to cast a big heal on before the next AOE. Things like this constantly happen during progression.




    Yes. The mastery won't be a big deal if you don't care about maximizing.


    Wait until you see that mages can use a spell that gives them unlimited blinks for 4 seconds....
    Your never gonna find them now mate

  2. #62
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    The mastery is pretty OP imo

    If we consider that paladins will do the same #s as other healers without mastery, then healing for 40% more (or up to 60%) makes holy paladins basically have their class trinket passively, effecting all spells. Not to mention you can kinda guarantee you'll get 100% effectiveness from the mastery. unlike the shaman mastery where it's completely useless on farm, or the MW mastery which is just bad.

    It seems like a better version of harmony really, but virsta is being legit- why are people complaining when there is literally zero info
    Should we really assume the devs still have no balls(mop-> wod transition) Issues/concerns where reported and not changed during beta.) It seems they are actually making more class changes now then when we went from cata->mop. The blizzcon presentation smells of new blood in the design/decision process.

    Can't we just assume they will include masteries and passive into an average hps. Just like they said they do for dps on a patchwork style fight.


    Edit:

    For the folks with the positioning issues. I'm sorry but on what boss do you not know where what ranged dps is? HPS really matters during progression. I don't give a fuck what happens during farm and people go yolo on a boss.

    Hellfire Assault: Pretty clear spread. melee/tanks will be furthest out due to npc spawning. ranged will be towards middle. you stand at middle.
    Iron Reaver: Fucking fixed positions. Yes spread mastery will be less effective. But you should know where people are for the most part.
    Kormrok: hell yeah you know where ranged players are. Hellyeah you know where that rogue went.
    Council: You know where people are except during the mirror phase last few killings.
    Killrog: you know where people are.
    Gorefiend: Some kiting of adds fucks it up. But from my experience raiders tend to stick to the same area's or at least return to it.
    iskar: yep. Even gives a nice debuff if somebody is out.
    Zakuun: Yep.
    Socrethar: Yep.
    Xhul: yep.
    Velhari: super yep.
    still progressing on mannoroth. started late due to guild death. But from what i have seen you should have a pretty clear idea. And it's not like the 10 yards around the boss should be an issue.
    Archi. looks like a lot of fixed positions in kill video's

    When everybody is stacked we should in my opinion see in increase from mastery and a loosely spread situation should be the default. Getting to stack should be the bonus and making us stronger. It shouldn't be the default. That's like saying everybody should constantly be kept at 50% hp so hots always have full effect.
    Last edited by mmocea7d8b0d33; 2015-11-10 at 03:45 AM.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Virsta1 View Post
    I mean if you really wanna bring achievements into this we can. I guess having a little awareness makes you a god though. So because of our mastery you can't heal the mage at 3% health?
    Keeping track of every member of your raid at all times (because you are a healer, it has be at all times if you want to be a good one.) =/= little awareness (in my opinion at least.) You have to be able to track them FAST too as you don't want people dying while you are trying to figure out where they are, otherwise of course it is easy to know where people are standing.

    You can heal the mage; but you may not be able to save them because of how you are tuned around your mastery. (unlike Floopa I am pretty sure we will be tuned around it the way our ST heals were tuned around having 2 Beacons in WoD.)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMeat420 View Post
    Then don't stack mastery. Easy as that.

    Personally I would wait for more info to be posted before making judgements/complaints.
    I don't like the idea from a first look and think it's possibly going to be a frustrating niche. I have listed many reasons as to why the Mastery may end up being frustrating, while also being aware of the fact that this is only a small portion of what the spec is going to be and things WILL change. There is no reason to get overhyped and overlook features/class design ideas that might end up sucking though.
    Last edited by Rorschachs; 2015-11-10 at 03:40 AM.

  4. #64
    This new mastery is a gimmick and boy do I hate gimmicks. It's never going to be a reliable stat and judging by the wording in the blog ("Proximity to your target causes your spells to heal for up to 30% (with Mastery from typical gear) more") I bet versatility is going to be worth more than mastery.
    It's like buying a "up to 100/100" internet connection and only getting 40/35 on average.....

    Luckily there is plenty of time for things to change - assuming they're willing to listen this time around...

  5. #65
    Ah it's been a while, friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschachs View Post
    Keeping track of every member of your raid at all times (because you are a healer, it has be at all times if you want to be a good one.) =/= little awareness (in my opinion at least.) You have to be able to track them FAST too as you don't want people dying while you are trying to figure out where they are, otherwise of course it is easy to know where people are standing.
    Do you really need to track? You should have an idea roughly where the member is, nothing in the mastery reads you need to know their exact coordinates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschachs View Post
    You can heal the mage; but you may not be able to save them because of how you are tuned around your mastery.
    Then it's either your fault for not knowing where the mage should be, the mage's fault for not being where he should be (or for standing in shit to get to 3%), your other healer's fault for not watching the mage (since if your mage is expected to blink off and drop to 3%, that should be the "new Holy Priest's" job). Or just your entire group's fault.

    And as Virsta said it's not like you can't heal the mage. And at 3% LOH is still going to be a full heal Mastery or no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschachs View Post
    I don't like the idea from a first look and think it's possibly going to be a frustrating niche. I have listed many reasons as to why the Mastery may end up being frustrating, while also being aware of the fact that this is only a small portion of what the spec is going to be and things WILL change. There is no reason to get overhyped and overlook features/class design ideas that might end up sucking though.
    I can agree it's going to end up sucking here, if there is no melee protection or if encounters fix your positioning and don't allow you to use the mastery (even if fixing positioning means mastery is literally always at 100% effectiveness, then mastery just becomes a flat multiplier, like versatility).

    Other than that, I don't think it'll actually be this bad. So finally I'd actually agree with Virsta here?!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschachs View Post
    Im sorry, did you actually do Mythic Blast Furnace during progression?
    It's funny because I quit in HFC, but I definitely did BRF. Mythic Blast Furnace is an amazing fight for Paladin new-Mastery. You might not know exact coordinates but you should almost definitely have had an idea of your proximity to raid members.

    Most fights there were actually pretty good for Mastery too since they were usually 2-clump (range and melee). If you take the talent, stand in the range clump, and have Beacon in the melee clump you'd be a pretty decent raid healer.

  6. #66
    Deleted
    The new Paladin changes sound a little clunky for holy. Regarding the mastery, they really ought to give paladins the Mistweaver melee protection treatment if they're going to go down that route.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Healeze View Post
    The new Paladin changes sound a little clunky for holy. Regarding the mastery, they really ought to give paladins the Mistweaver melee protection treatment if they're going to go down that route.
    MWs no longer have ranged immunity

  8. #68
    The new mastery could really be fun if we get some kind of blink ability, letting us teleport over to someone in need of big heals. Mobility has to be enhanced for this to be really interesting, and it really leaves me wanting an instant aoe heal that can be used while moving with a group.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Atsela View Post
    it really leaves me wanting an instant aoe heal that can be used while moving with a group.
    Think LoD should be instant again with this model. There's a CD limitation + cone/positioning limitation already. No need for a cast.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    Ah it's been a while, friends.



    Do you really need to track? You should have an idea roughly where the member is, nothing in the mastery reads you need to know their exact coordinates.



    Then it's either your fault for not knowing where the mage should be, the mage's fault for not being where he should be (or for standing in shit to get to 3%), your other healer's fault for not watching the mage (since if your mage is expected to blink off and drop to 3%, that should be the "new Holy Priest's" job). Or just your entire group's fault.

    And as Virsta said it's not like you can't heal the mage. And at 3% LOH is still going to be a full heal Mastery or no.



    I can agree it's going to end up sucking here, if there is no melee protection or if encounters fix your positioning and don't allow you to use the mastery (even if fixing positioning means mastery is literally always at 100% effectiveness, then mastery just becomes a flat multiplier, like versatility).

    Other than that, I don't think it'll actually be this bad. So finally I'd actually agree with Virsta here?!

    - - - Updated - - -



    It's funny because I quit in HFC, but I definitely did BRF. Mythic Blast Furnace is an amazing fight for Paladin new-Mastery. You might not know exact coordinates but you should almost definitely have had an idea of your proximity to raid members.

    Most fights there were actually pretty good for Mastery too since they were usually 2-clump (range and melee). If you take the talent, stand in the range clump, and have Beacon in the melee clump you'd be a pretty decent raid healer.
    No, it's not really my fault If I didn't know that the mage was going to blink and can't spot his direction in a mere second and move closer to cast a heal. It's actually ridiculous to me that you guys think it is possible to maximize your output with a mastery like that.
    Last edited by Rorschachs; 2015-11-10 at 04:20 AM.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Leefa View Post
    This new mastery is a gimmick and boy do I hate gimmicks. It's never going to be a reliable stat and judging by the wording in the blog ("Proximity to your target causes your spells to heal for up to 30% (with Mastery from typical gear) more") I bet versatility is going to be worth more than mastery.
    It's like buying a "up to 100/100" internet connection and only getting 40/35 on average.....

    Luckily there is plenty of time for things to change - assuming they're willing to listen this time around...
    Agree. I'm not so keen on the "need to know where they are" argument, but the unreliability and gimmicky part of it makes me skeptical at this point.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschachs View Post
    Im sorry, did you actually do Mythic Blast Furnace during progression? Also some awareness isn't going to be enough if you want to know where that %3 HP Mage has blinked to 3 seconds ago that you need to cast a big heal on before the next AOE. Things like this constantly happen during progression.
    I don't know, did you?

    The only times the raid is somewhat spread is during P1 and running out the debuff during P2.

    Your mastery isn't the difference between life and death for the mage if you do your job and heal him regardless of his proximity to your location.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschachs View Post
    No, it's not really my fault If I didn't know that the mage was going to blink and can't spot his direction in a mere second and move closer to cast a heal. It's actually ridiculous to me that you guys think it is possible to maximize your output with a mastery like that.
    No, the fault lies in individuals like you whinging each tier on how weak their spec is. When it's not.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

    Prediction for the future

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschachs View Post
    No, it's not really my fault If I didn't know that the mage was going to blink and can't spot his direction in a mere second and move closer to cast a heal. It's actually ridiculous to me that you guys think it is possible to maximize your output with a mastery like that.
    I didn't say it necessarily was YOUR fault.

    It's yours if the mage was supposed to blink to a predictable spot, and you didn't know that.
    If the mage blinked away for no reason, then it's the mage's fault.
    If the mage was blinking and another healer with a different Mastery was in charge of watching the mage, then it's that healer's fault.

    If neither you, the mage, nor the other healer knew what anyone was doing, it's your entire raid's fault. Including you.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    I didn't say it necessarily was YOUR fault.

    It's yours if the mage was supposed to blink to a predictable spot, and you didn't know that.
    If the mage blinked away for no reason, then it's the mage's fault.
    If the mage was blinking and another healer with a different Mastery was in charge of watching the mage, then it's that healer's fault.

    If neither you, the mage, nor the other healer knew what anyone was doing, it's your entire raid's fault. Including you.
    Hopefully all the masteries will work together making you want to bring different healers to apply different aspects to healing rather than stacking a couple paladins or a couple druids or whatever.

    I really think I will like this approach if they give each healer more of a niche than they have now. It could really change the healing game

  15. #75
    Well, the good news is HoPo is gone. The bad news is that mastery is going to be a pain in the ass. Hopefully haste and crit will be viable for gearing away from it. That Beacon talent sounds like it would be mandatory if the player wants to get the most out of the mastery, which brings up the question of whether it's okay for certain talents to key into certain stats... It probably is, and it'll likely become inevitable anyway since talents have potential to really change the way the spec plays.

    It looks like they haven't said anything about Spirit's mechanics. Hopefully they make it wanted by us like tanks want Bonus Armor, which would almost certainly mean having it grant spell power.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
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  16. #76
    seems like nobody playing paladin healer if this changes hold up. Shame they ruining class like this.

  17. #77
    Deleted
    They removed chakras and other stuff because they realized, that it doesn't feel benificial to to in the right Chakra, but punishing to be in the wrong.

    Now they introduce a mastery that will generate a punishing feeling wheneve you have to heal a target further away and even more when you are on a raid-spread fight.

    Also: welcome to the padding meters, where you now race against a Monks RJW, chainheal and and the new priests AE spells.

  18. #78
    I am Murloc! Asrialol's Avatar
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    I don't get why people use raids in WoD as an example to explain how good/bad the mastery is. Those raids and bossfights has nothing to do with the mastery, as they will be irrelevant. We don't know how the bossfights in Legion will be, so discussing it with HFC examples is pointless.

    Personally I like the mastery. I can see how they find it suitable for a Paladin.
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  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    I don't get why people use raids in WoD as an example to explain how good/bad the mastery is. Those raids and bossfights has nothing to do with the mastery, as they will be irrelevant. We don't know how the bossfights in Legion will be, so discussing it with HFC examples is pointless.

    Personally I like the mastery. I can see how they find it suitable for a Paladin.
    People also aren't keeping in mind, you're encouraged to stack on holy paladins due to Auras/AoE healing being 10-15 yards.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    I don't get why people use raids in WoD as an example to explain how good/bad the mastery is. Those raids and bossfights has nothing to do with the mastery, as they will be irrelevant. We don't know how the bossfights in Legion will be, so discussing it with HFC examples is pointless.

    Personally I like the mastery. I can see how they find it suitable for a Paladin.
    Using current WoD examples is more about saying "In these situations it's terrible." Basically it's going with specifics and then generalizing. We don't know what Legion raids will be like, but there are only so many kinds of positional things Blizzard can reasonably put into encounters.

    As far as the mastery's theme goes, it's alright. Come to think of it, it harkens back to Cataclysm's Holy Radiance which did have positional reqs. In execution, however, one of the core parts of making encounters challenging is having there be different positional requirements. To do our jobs as healers we really should be range-agnostic because if we aren't then that sets up extraneous positional requirements that are far more likely to detract from the game than make it interesting. We've already got enough on our plate making sure we keep up with healing, but adding our own position relative to who we're healing actively detracts from us doing our job without giving anything compelling in return.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
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