[HOLY] Holy Sh*t!: Legion Edition

[Simulacrum]

And you should know equally, that when incidental aoe healing (others, as well as your own), hots and the like, that statement is situational. You're being as willfully ignorant as you're insinuating others are.

Right. The normal "the self-damage doesn't matter" argument, just phrased differently, as if that changes anything.

I'll grant that when the self-damage doesn't matter, it's actually a good heal.

But when the self-damage doesn't matter (outside of divine shield), if you're not a dumbass you're not casting heals at all; you're dpsing.

Only cases I can think of where it makes sense to use it while you're not moving is il'gynoth, to just quickly heal people when only a handful of guys are taking damage, or on xavius to kill yourself. Indeed, these are "situational" uses, but they're not "situational" in the sense that you "situationally" "weave" lotm into your casting priority in order to save mana, as the guy I was responding to asserted, and as you implied you agreed with since your reply would make no sense in response to me otherwise.

[Deleted]

Right. The normal "the self-damage doesn't matter" argument, just phrased differently, as if that changes anything.

I'll grant that when the self-damage doesn't matter, it's actually a good heal.

But when the self-damage doesn't matter (outside of divine shield), if you're not a dumbass you're not casting heals at all; you're dpsing.

Only cases I can think of where it makes sense to use it while you're not moving is il'gynoth, to just quickly heal people when only a handful of guys are taking damage, or on xavius to kill yourself. Indeed, these are "situational" uses, but they're not "situational" in the sense that you "situationally" "weave" lotm into your casting priority in order to save mana, as the guy I was responding to asserted, and as you implied you agreed with since your reply would make no sense in response to me otherwise.

Personally, I do weave it in if the tank is getting wrecked and I'm not in any danger. More so, now I have that super-sweet oh-so-awesome legendary neck.

But really... Mathematically speaking the difference is a statistical fart in the wind, which is why I usually just roll my eyes when someone rolls out "lotm is trash" argument. Guess I'm in an odd mood.

[Unir]

While I agree that the use cases for this spell are pretty limited I think you maybe misunderstood the point of my post. At no point did I mention anything about using LotM to increase mana efficiency, in fact I stated almost the exact opposite.

I'm simply arguing against what Simulacrum posted about never casting it if you can use FoL instead. "It is a shitty spell. Never cast it over fol if you have the opportunity to cast fol instead. In fact, just never cast it unless you're moving or you want to kill yourself." My point is that there ARE definitely use cases for LotM outside of what most people realize, not that it will ever be more mana efficient.

Additionally, I'm not sure casting LotM during Ursoc is any more dangerous than running AoS (which seems to be the most frequently used aura on this fight). One single cast of LotM to supplement an IoLFoL cast is only going to cost maybe 2-3% of your total health pool. As a Holy Paladin, you should know that we have one of the largest health pools, if not the largest, of any non-tank class in the game right now. We should make use of it where we can.

I also have to disagree with using LoH in the above situation, seems like a bit of a waste to use such a valuable CD on a tank with 20-30% of their health left. I generally tend to exhaust all other options and save LoH for incredibly dire situations i.e. <10%.

I don't think there is any disagreement with the math here, only the interpretation of the results.

... except that he is correct. If you have time to get a FoL off instead, you should. The case you described, as I understood it, was tank at low health and little to no time before another high-damage mechanic happened. In that case, with no other instant available, LotM is likely OK to use. It's really that simple.

I am not going to quibble over LoH at that health point, but yes, 20-30% health is plenty low to justify a LoH - simply because it very likely will not overheal if nothing else. Waiting til some arbitrary lower figure is just courting a death for the tank. That's really a minor point, though. If it would overheal your tank at 20-30% health then sure, wait until a bit lower if you desire.

The point about mana efficiency was not directed to you. If you read above, you will see that someone suggested working in LotM in light of the slight increase to mana cost for FoL. That is silliness.

LotM is really pretty simple to figure out. If nothing else, one of the metrics used in evaluating a raider's performance is how much damage did they take (i.e. standing in the fire, in general terms, using personal dr's, etc.). Choosing to take damage when you did not have to speaks of poor play, and LotM is no different. In that sense use of LotM when its very specific use case is not met is the healing equivalent of standing in the fire, or reaches the same result - unnecessary damage.

At this point I am fairly convinced those who defend a more heavy use of it simply enjoy the sniping and meter padding they get out of it, and do not like to hear it was an unwise decision. There is no other rational reason.

[Afrikanz]

... except that he is correct. If you have time to get a FoL off instead, you should. The case you described, as I understood it, was tank at low health and little to no time before another high-damage mechanic happened. In that case, with no other instant available, LotM is likely OK to use. It's really that simple.

I am not going to quibble over LoH at that health point, but yes, 20-30% health is plenty low to justify a LoH - simply because it very likely will not overheal if nothing else. Waiting til some arbitrary lower figure is just courting a death for the tank. That's really a minor point, though. If it would overheal your tank at 20-30% health then sure, wait until a bit lower if you desire.

The point about mana efficiency was not directed to you. If you read above, you will see that someone suggested working in LotM in light of the slight increase to mana cost for FoL. That is silliness.

LotM is really pretty simple to figure out. If nothing else, one of the metrics used in evaluating a raider's performance is how much damage did they take (i.e. standing in the fire, in general terms, using personal dr's, etc.). Choosing to take damage when you did not have to speaks of poor play, and LotM is no different. In that sense use of LotM when its very specific use case is not met is the healing equivalent of standing in the fire, or reaches the same result - unnecessary damage.

At this point I am fairly convinced those who defend a more heavy use of it simply enjoy the sniping and meter padding they get out of it, and do not like to hear it was an unwise decision. There is no other rational reason.

Again, I'm not arguing for a heavier use of the spell. If anything, I agree with your statement that the situations for when this spell should actually be used are pretty limited. I think most people at this point are either arguing either completely for or against the spell entirely. I'm just trying to make the point that there are more opportunities to use the spell than if you are moving.

As a better point of reference for my argument, my logs as well as most of the top Paladin healing parses on warcraftlogs show that a majority of top parsing Paladins are using LotM for roughly 10 - 15 casts per encounter or roughly 2-3% of our total healing (depending on the length of the encounter). I think that this usage is roughly where we should be right now. Completely disregarding the spell is not correct, neither is using it above more efficient spells when it isn't necessary.

[Smag]

I don't see a dilemma here:

1. Tank is hanging by his/her teeth -> All your instant shit is on CD (LoH included) -> You are finishing a cast of your uninfused, peice-of-shit-not-critting-when-it-needs-to FoL -> Use LotM.
2. People and/or Tank are getting focused by some mechanic - You are constantly moving - All your instant shit is on CD (LoH included) - Use LotM.

For everything else, use Maste... erm...everything else in your healing kit. Case closed.

[Simulacrum]

Personally, I do weave it in if the tank is getting wrecked and I'm not in any danger. More so, now I have that super-sweet oh-so-awesome legendary neck.

But really... Mathematically speaking the difference is a statistical fart in the wind, which is why I usually just roll my eyes when someone rolls out "lotm is trash" argument. Guess I'm in an odd mood.

The tank getting wrecked so overpoweringly that you see no better choice but to spam lotm on him represents an extremely rare and desperate situation. It also means you've ran out of your like 4 better options for dealing with that situation and your tank is still on the verge of dying and you're not. I wouldn't call casting unusual spells in response to that situation "weaving" them in, unless you'd say the same thing about "weaving in" blessings of sacrifice and lay on hands.

But, you finally reveal why you actually think the spell is good; you have the neck that sometimes makes it good. And it does make the spell very good if you're just consuming a shield that would overheal anyway. Maybe our best HPM spell, actually. But most people don't have the neck.

Also, mistakes amounting to "farts in the wind" add up really fast when you make lots of them. 100k hps lost here, 100k hps lost there, 50% hps efficiency lost here, 50% hps efficiency lost there, and before you know it people are on the mmo-c forums talking about how they need to cast more lotms because they're running out of mana too fast... a problem they're having in the first place because they're casting too many lotms.

Again, I'm not arguing for a heavier use of the spell. If anything, I agree with your statement that the situations for when this spell should actually be used are pretty limited. I think most people at this point are either arguing either completely for or against the spell entirely. I'm just trying to make the point that there are more opportunities to use the spell than if you are moving.

As a better point of reference for my argument, my logs as well as most of the top Paladin healing parses on warcraftlogs show that a majority of top parsing Paladins are using LotM for roughly 10 - 15 casts per encounter or roughly 2-3% of our total healing (depending on the length of the encounter). I think that this usage is roughly where we should be right now. Completely disregarding the spell is not correct, neither is using it above more efficient spells when it isn't necessary.

You're arguing against a misunderstanding of my position if you think I'm advocating against the complete use of the spell. It's usually 2-3% of my healing in my logs as well; mostly during movement. My argument these last two pages has only been that you should "never cast it over fol if you have the opportunity to cast fol instead". That's a bit too absolute (there are very rare cases where it makes sense to use lotm instead), but it's a much better general rule to follow than one that says you should 'weave it in' when you have mana problems, which is just terrible advice. Though I grant that this flippant statement is open to misunderstanding on my part.

[Unir]

Again, I'm not arguing for a heavier use of the spell. If anything, I agree with your statement that the situations for when this spell should actually be used are pretty limited. I think most people at this point are either arguing either completely for or against the spell entirely. I'm just trying to make the point that there are more opportunities to use the spell than if you are moving.

As a better point of reference for my argument, my logs as well as most of the top Paladin healing parses on warcraftlogs show that a majority of top parsing Paladins are using LotM for roughly 10 - 15 casts per encounter or roughly 2-3% of our total healing (depending on the length of the encounter). I think that this usage is roughly where we should be right now. Completely disregarding the spell is not correct, neither is using it above more efficient spells when it isn't necessary.

We appear to be in agreement. I would expect to see 5-10 or so casts of it in a log, depending on the encounter. Much more than that and it starts to smell bad.

[MCC]

The tank getting wrecked so overpoweringly that you see no better choice but to spam lotm on him represents an extremely rare and desperate situation.

It's not. It's actually a pretty common occurrence in Mythic+, especially where the group is still learning an encounter. I have to deal with tanks getting wrecked all the time in PUGs.

[Lestrang]

The LoD Divine purpose + Second sunrise bug has been fixed i think

[Rorschachs]

LotM is even more of an option now that FoL has been nerfed mana-wise. We might have to weave it in once in a while to preserve our mana.

[Michelis]

The LoD Divine purpose + Second sunrise bug has been fixed i think

did you test it or there is a patch note about this change?

[Lestrang]

did you test it or there is a patch note about this change?

I have been playing all day yesterday and it didnt bug at all, no patch notes though

[fabonaut]

LotM is even more of an option now that FoL has been nerfed mana-wise. We might have to weave it in once in a while to preserve our mana.

It's not, especially because it doesn't preserve your mana if you factor in your self damage.

[Hawg]

It's not, especially because it doesn't preserve your mana if you factor in your self damage.

Why factor in the self damage when that will be healed by splash healing?

[Simulacrum]

Why factor in the self damage when that will be healed by splash healing?

cuz it simportant if you're not healing LFR

[Hawg]

Ignoring infused flash of light here is how they compare with revised numbers for 7.1:

If you are healing your Beacon target:

LotM hpm = 66.67 (cut that in half 33.33 If you want to factor in the self damage)
FoL hpm = 50

(That assumes that you get the 40% extra heal from FoL when you heal your Beacon target, not sure if that is the case, if not it would make the hpm 35.7)

But if you are healing a non-Beacon target:

LotM is the same
FoL hpm drops down to 35hpm.

So if you start excluding at least some of the self damage, the mana efficeny of LotM Is better than a non infused FoL. Even if you don't exclude any of the self damage, it is not far off (a nice trade for mobility and insta cast?).

- - - Updated - - -

cuz it simportant if you're not healing LFR

All I am saying is the statement that "FoL is more mana efficient than LotM" is an over simplification.

I also assume that since you say we can't ignore the self damage from LotM that you also disagree with all the people who are using aura of sac?

[GSN]

I do not see why one would force in LotM casts just to preserve mana. I've yet to have any mana issues this exp as a paladin, even after the mana increase to FoL it is easily manageable in Mythic.

For the record, I'm using two stat stick trinkets and only using the cheap mana pots/int pots now after patch. This has been the case for both farm and progress.

[Afrikanz]

I do not see why one would force in LotM casts just to preserve mana. I've yet to have any mana issues this exp as a paladin, even after the mana increase to FoL it is easily manageable in Mythic.

For the record, I'm using two stat stick trinkets and only using the cheap mana pots/int pots now after patch. This has been the case for both farm and progress.

Agreed, I haven't noticed any issues post-change with mana either. If anything I believe the correct way to deal with mana issues would be to utilize more Holy Light casts, not LotM. Spamming LotM, not that it's recommended, can run you out of mana more quickly since there is no cast time associated with it.

[Lestrang]

Guys, how do you feel about items like Drape of shame from karazan (10% increased healing for crit heals passive on cloak) and Gnawed thumb ring (3 minute 5% healing cd)
I feel like the drape is very strong, like at 855 ilvl, its probably better than 865 ilvl ones. specially for us since we stack crit.

[Tekres]

Guys, how do you feel about items like Drape of shame from karazan (10% increased healing for crit heals passive on cloak) and Gnawed thumb ring (3 minute 5% healing cd)
I feel like the drape is very strong, like at 855 ilvl, its probably better than 865 ilvl ones. specially for us since we stack crit.

I got a 880 crit / mastery cloak from the weekly quest then went to Kara... Got the drape of shame from maiden, and I'm pretty sure it's better even with the stat loss. 10% more critical healing when running 43% crit is a pretty big boost, I've heard some people say it's on par with our legendaries if not better.