1. #3461
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwemer View Post
    Are you guys looking forward to your Crit% nerf too? :<
    it will be an overall 12.5% crit nerf. but the funny thing, crit will gain in value compared to the other secondary stats except for mastery.

    That being said.. since it's a global nerf nothing much will change for us. the game will be balanced around that and we'll out gear the older content anyways by 7.15

  2. #3462
    Deleted
    They're also increasing the secondary stats on jewelry at the same time, so actual crit reduction will be less.

    I modified my copy of the spreadsheet a bit to get an estimate of what it will do to our stat weights (with my stats and regular talents, but I reset it to default settings for everything else I think);

    With current ratings per 1%: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing


    With 7.1.5 ratings per 1%: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing


    Edit:
    Here's a spreadsheet where I adjusted my stats for jewelry stat changes: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
    Last edited by mmoc25d0f35602; 2016-12-01 at 04:34 PM.

  3. #3463
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    1) Did you miss the part where I specifically said that our legendaries are awful on live and great on PTR (7.1.5)?
    guess the 2 best legendaries in 715 (shoulders and ring) got buffed :thinking:

    oh wait they didn't.

    stop while you're ahead pacer. paladins are the best healer right now w/o a shadow of doubt. sure they have some minor issues but other specs (holy priests, mistweavers) have much bigger issues. what more do you want paladins to have? insane ST healing, best tank healing, best longevity (mana-wise) of any healer, best survivability. movement is weaker than MW but better than everyone else.

  4. #3464
    Quote Originally Posted by Narsilon View Post
    This isn't about our Beacons. How is this so hard to understand? Casting light of dawn went against their entire class design. Their whole fantasy bit was about healing with the light sacrificing our own life pool and being in melee. Hawg inserted BotL as the solution when in my opinion it clearly isn't the solution. It's not about not being able to cast LoD. We didn't get melee immunity just because a dev sucked at doing ranged mechanics. The fact is that it's one of our key healing abilities in our toolkit. I'm talking about the alpha/beta period. Did you guys really forget how terribad our talents/design was? That was what the discussion was about. And not to sound totally elitist but have you not done any higher content where your dps matters?
    I look at it differently then you.. I look at fights either as fights where I am in mele and can dps a lot, or where I am ranged and can only dps witgh holy prisim, judge, and the ocassional holy shock.

    Most fights I go melee, and I use light of dawn only on melee, and I use BOF and I dont often heal ranged, they are for the other healers.

    But on a few fights I find that my need to raid heal is higher and so I pick BoL which hurts my ability to dps, but increases my healing to ranged, in these fights, LoD is simply less powerful, its part of the trade off.

    The problem I have with your original graphic was you are mixing the roles. In that fight if you are going to dps and you want to stand in mele then LoD will suffer and you will need to take LoF instead, but your total healing will be as good if not better. So will your dps.

  5. #3465
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    guess the 2 best legendaries in 715 (shoulders and ring) got buffed :thinking:

    oh wait they didn't.

    stop while you're ahead pacer. paladins are the best healer right now w/o a shadow of doubt. sure they have some minor issues but other specs (holy priests, mistweavers) have much bigger issues. what more do you want paladins to have? insane ST healing, best tank healing, best longevity (mana-wise) of any healer, best survivability. movement is weaker than MW but better than everyone else.
    Aaaah, yes. You must be talking about paladins in Diablo 2. They were awesome w/o a shadow of doubt. Member?

  6. #3466
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    I look at it differently then you.. I look at fights either as fights where I am in mele and can dps a lot, or where I am ranged and can only dps witgh holy prisim, judge, and the ocassional holy shock.
    Guess having both in a fight isn't an option for you then. Because that has happend this tier.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    Most fights I go melee, and I use light of dawn only on melee, and I use BOF and I dont often heal ranged, they are for the other healers.
    Do you only use LoD on the tank and yourself in dungeons as well? Or do you slack and just stand with the ranged. Do you dps on the dragons of nightmare fight? When the melee are away i'm pretty sure you will have more ranged tanking dmg behind you. Do you not cast LoD? do you only cast it on yourself and the tank again? Did you not dps the heart phase of Il'gynoth? Did you not notice some ranged standing further back not getting hit by the LoD you can weave in during?
    Cenarius with the aura and xavius as well. There are plenty of examples in the current tier where it's not as black and white as you paint it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    But on a few fights I find that my need to raid heal is higher and so I pick BoL which hurts my ability to dps, but increases my healing to ranged, in these fights, LoD is simply less powerful, its part of the trade off.
    So what BotL modifies LoD. Doesn't change the fact of where you cast it at.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    The problem I have with your original graphic was you are mixing the roles. In that fight if you are going to dps and you want to stand in melee then LoD will suffer and you will need to take LoF instead, but your total healing will be as good if not better. So will your dps.
    Assuming LoF = BoF
    What if it's a 1tank fight. LoD does not suffer from standing in melee. Rule of law is really strong. Your gameplay suffers from standing in melee and trying to cast LoD on the ranged clump.



    The original discussion and my point with the graphic was that during the design phase and alpha/beta phase they made a lot of changes that came to be because of feedback. Feedback that people pretty much dumped into 1 pile: everybody is a fucking whiny baby. And by doing so people sweep away all the effort people took to get us where we are now right into the trash.

    Now somebody brought up the Beacons as the answer to my dislike of the LoD changes. It's not the answer it doesn't change the way you cast at all. Sure BotL increases its range but you still have to turn around and break away from the gameplay/fantasy that seemed so important during the early design. They wanted us to think about our position. They gave us certain restrictions(10 yard aura/good melee dps/LoD cone/holy radiance removed. You can go re-read the class preview if you need a little bit of help remembering.
    At first we actually had denounce so you could do dps from ranged. You had a lot of options on where to position yourself best. The way they described it in the preview! The fact is they wanted to give us a battle healer fantasy. The devs want us in melee with our big mace swinging away. At least at the point during alpha it sure felt like it. Will have to wait for more 7.1.5/7.2 changes to figure out if they are happy with the result.

    For some reason you keep going back to the beacon being the answer as well now. We had very different talents at that point. You had crusaders might that buffed mastery by 12% and BotL that buffed it by 24%(instead of the current LoD modifers). Devotion aura was a straight up 10% dmg reduction in 10 yards. Aura of sac was 10% increased healing in 10 yards. The old version of beacon of virtue(beacon of the savior) read: Dealing damage with crusader strike, judgment, holy shock, denounce, or autaoattacks also heals your beacon of light for(250% of spell power). We had a lol 3 second delay teleport ability to help our movement and positioning.

    They started making a lot of changes to our toolkit.
    LoD got the circle of forgiveness added to help the hard/clunky/not fun to use aspect of it.
    Rule of law got added to help with our mastery.
    Divine stead got added for our fucking trash level mobility. Went against their design preview entirely.
    Moved our LoD(aoe output0 modifier from daybreak to BotL.
    Holy avenger added and SW got moved to help our choices.
    Auras got redone.
    Bestow Faith was added as another mobility cast option.
    LotM went through numerous changes.

    Obviously a lot of other things changed. But the first thing listed is the circle of forgiveness as i call it. Imagine being in the alpha without these changes. You are standing in melee running the old crusaders might/BotL or BoS and then having to min/max your position to get a good LoD cast. Oh melee are standing at the edge of the hitbox. Better ask them to move forward a bit and then check if you can still melee attack the boss standing behind them. Oh that 1 melee is to much to the left. Oh well guess you gotta remind him/her again or just not heal them. That simply isn't fun in my opinion. None of the beacon options we have alleviated that problem. The circle of forgiveness helped alleviate some of those issues.
    At it's core it's still a cone heal that you need to aim at players. Sure i see some fun/skill/challenge in that. It doesn't change the fact that turning 180 degrees and casting on the ranged is very unfun in my opinion. Having 1 Light of Dawn type ability is fine. Having to many restrictions is not. It becomes tedious instead of challenging.

    At the end of the day it's still a very restricted aoe heal. After years of priests being restricted with their group target aoe they set them free. They pretty much gave them Holy Radiance with a bigger range. After many paladins complained about the range for years. And paladins get Light of Dawn with quite severe restrictions.

  7. #3467
    Quote Originally Posted by Narsilon View Post
    This isn't about our Beacons. How is this so hard to understand? Casting light of dawn went against their entire class design. Their whole fantasy bit was about healing with the light sacrificing our own life pool and being in melee. Hawg inserted BotL as the solution when in my opinion it clearly isn't the solution. It's not about not being able to cast LoD. We didn't get melee immunity just because a dev sucked at doing ranged mechanics. The fact is that it's one of our key healing abilities in our toolkit. I'm talking about the alpha/beta period. Did you guys really forget how terribad our talents/design was? That was what the discussion was about. And not to sound totally elitist but have you not done any higher content where your dps matters?
    Yes, I have. But effectiveness in healing is more important than effectiveness in DPS in most situations. At least in my opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by gibborim
    Just because you are doing it wrong without large scale failure does not mean you are doing it right.

  8. #3468
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    Oh and did you know the new legendary trinket which is amazing for priest and druid is going to be garbage for shaman and paladin? I bet you didnt because you didnt test it and instead spend your time whining about people who ask for changes.
    Oh yeah, I see it now.

    For classes that are designed to overheal a lot and still compete with non-overhealing classes, this trinket is indeed awesome. That means HoT classes: druid and monk, not sure how priests fit into this. For classes designed for low overhealing, such as you-know-who, it's utter shite.

    Sigh. I would have said something along the lines "What were they thinking?", except I am no longer convinced they are, indeed, thinking.

  9. #3469
    Something I've been wondering since Legion launch, do we really have this "melee immunity"? Does it depend on our talent choices? I've been targeted by Hymdall's Dancing Blade and Guarm's Flame / Frost Licks multiple times while having at least a dozen ranged dps and healers alive. Shouldn't those abilities ignore me when playing Holy? Standing in melee to get full benefits of my mastery on the tanks becomes awkward when the entire melee camp gets stunned by Frost Lick splashing on me...

  10. #3470
    Quote Originally Posted by foodprint View Post
    Something I've been wondering since Legion launch, do we really have this "melee immunity"? Does it depend on our talent choices? I've been targeted by Hymdall's Dancing Blade and Guarm's Flame / Frost Licks multiple times while having at least a dozen ranged dps and healers alive. Shouldn't those abilities ignore me when playing Holy? Standing in melee to get full benefits of my mastery on the tanks becomes awkward when the entire melee camp gets stunned by Frost Lick splashing on me...
    paladins/mws are bugged on guarm. count as ranged. feelsbadman

    but pls, we do have melee immunity, although it's more a priority system more than an immunity system now. basically, on anything but guarm you wont be hit by things which are exclusively ranged unless there are not enough ranged players in your raid (brambles on cenarius, for example)

  11. #3471
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    paladins/mws are bugged on guarm. count as ranged. feelsbadman

    but pls, we do have melee immunity, although it's more a priority system more than an immunity system now. basically, on anything but guarm you wont be hit by things which are exclusively ranged unless there are not enough ranged players in your raid (brambles on cenarius, for example)
    I did notice that most abilities seem to consider us as melee, simply got thrown off by bosses in ToV suddenly deciding I'm ranged. Thanks for clarifying!

    Regarding Judgement of light, everyone seems to believe it to be best of its tier. So I had to test it, and... what do you guys do when it bugs out and no stacks get consumed even though people are losing health and you're the only paladin in the group? And when another paladin is happily overriding it? I find it very frustrating to use...

  12. #3472
    Quote Originally Posted by foodprint View Post
    I did notice that most abilities seem to consider us as melee, simply got thrown off by bosses in ToV suddenly deciding I'm ranged. Thanks for clarifying!

    Regarding Judgement of light, everyone seems to believe it to be best of its tier. So I had to test it, and... what do you guys do when it bugs out and no stacks get consumed even though people are losing health and you're the only paladin in the group? And when another paladin is happily overriding it? I find it very frustrating to use...
    JoL now stacks among multiple paladins but the JoL which is weaker gets consumed first

    so if paladin A has 35000 int and paladin B has 40000 int, paladin A's JoL stacks get consumed before paladin B's

  13. #3473
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    JoL now stacks among multiple paladins but the JoL which is weaker gets consumed first

    so if paladin A has 35000 int and paladin B has 40000 int, paladin A's JoL stacks get consumed before paladin B's
    I see! Thank you for yet another explaination!

    Guess my JoL will never have priority then, first time being geared is actually a problem... well, that and Overflowing in m+...

  14. #3474
    Given a roughly even gear level, will a prot pally jol be stronger than a holy pally one? My guild has a prot Tank, and he always runs jol, and so far I've been going with SW to avoid clash, but if they're stacking, I wouldn't mind doubling up if my stacks are used first.

  15. #3475
    Quote Originally Posted by Genzen Han View Post
    Given a roughly even gear level, will a prot pally jol be stronger than a holy pally one? My guild has a prot Tank, and he always runs jol, and so far I've been going with SW to avoid clash, but if they're stacking, I wouldn't mind doubling up if my stacks are used first.
    you need to just ask him what the tooltip for his says.

  16. #3476
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    you need to just ask him what the tooltip for his says.
    Shut up with your logic and sense-making!

  17. #3477
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nedralixx View Post
    Aaaah, yes. You must be talking about paladins in Diablo 2. They were awesome w/o a shadow of doubt. Member?
    this lol

  18. #3478
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    JoL now stacks among multiple paladins but the JoL which is weaker gets consumed first

    so if paladin A has 35000 int and paladin B has 40000 int, paladin A's JoL stacks get consumed before paladin B's
    Where did you see this? I don't recall seeing this in the patch notes, but I could have missed it. A strange way to not really fix a problem.

  19. #3479
    Just a quick check-in to see if my trinket mentality is still correct.

    I seem to recall people being quite excitable about the Horn of Cenarius trinket, but then I remember the enthusiasm dying down and people recommending stat-sticks as the best options.

    I just got a 865 Horn of Cenarius with a socket, and it would be competing with an 845 stat-stick with Int and Crit (no socket). Does the stat-stick win out, or should I switch to the Horn?

  20. #3480
    Quote Originally Posted by Genzen Han View Post
    Just a quick check-in to see if my trinket mentality is still correct.

    I seem to recall people being quite excitable about the Horn of Cenarius trinket, but then I remember the enthusiasm dying down and people recommending stat-sticks as the best options.

    I just got a 865 Horn of Cenarius with a socket, and it would be competing with an 845 stat-stick with Int and Crit (no socket). Does the stat-stick win out, or should I switch to the Horn?
    Stat stick all day man
    My FC is 1177 - 6552 - 9842 PM with yours if you add.

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