[HOLY] Holy Sh*t!: Legion Edition

[Ajwon]

This forum and especially discord is full of autists, I honestly don't get why people rely on them for information. You have all the information available you'll ever need on one fucking site: warcraftlogs.com

It isn't even that radically different from what Dreamguard's spreadsheet has in it and that's something that people have considered accurate for many months

ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ kms

Infracted

[Deleted]

It´s amusing to see how interesting discussions quickly turn into personal attacks because people have too much of a thin skin, or think too high of themselfs or simply take things wrong. That has refrained me from keeping on discussing things as well, it´s really annoying how ppl quickly jump on your neck at the slightlest statement, new idea or concept.

The real smart guys will be able to get whatever info they can from zero's spreadsheet model and apply that info to improve their gameplay. How can you discuss something so obvious is hilarious; if you go oom you heal for nothing. If you are getting close to go oom you cut down on ur healing agressiveness, healing for less. That´s why zero's spreadhseet have included a modificable time to go oom "goal" which you derive from that fight lenght you want to sim. If you current talents and gear following the spreadsheet model's "rotation" states that you will go oom in 6min, then you will definately have to do something to prevent going oom in a 7 or 8 min fight.

So ye, the spreadsheet is a guideline that will give you more knowledge. Is up to you how to interpret and use it to your benefit. If anything you should thank him for keeping up the holy pala spreadsheet.

Doesnt matter if you are in a top guild or you are parsing high, there's always something to learn and being more humble will allow you to become a better player even if you are on the top.

[Deleted]

On a side note.. got my 2nd Legendary finally... Uther's Guards. The addtional on the move heal is rather nice for mythics and the haste is welcome too

[Kochanski]

Can anyone post link to zero's spreadsheet?

[MCC]

If my spreadsheet expects you to go OOM within 4 minutes, make sure that matches what you're doing in game. Hint: it likely isn't. If the estimated time until OOM is off then so are all the suggestions from the spreadsheet. The closer it is to what you're experiencing in-game, the more likely it is you configured your spreadsheet properly and it is actually accurate.

Where can I find a more-or-less detailed description of your model? I don't mean the spreadsheet itself, I mean things like essential assumptions, methodology etc.

[trm90]

On a side note.. got my 2nd Legendary finally... Uther's Guards. The addtional on the move heal is rather nice for mythics and the haste is welcome too

FYI this legendary was stealth buffed and the heal can now crit. 30% max health heals are huge on many tanks. It's not as good as current BiS still, but it's much better now.

It still isn't affected by beacon/vers/mastery but is a really nice buff nonetheless.

[Deleted]

It´s amusing to see how interesting discussions quickly turn into personal attacks because people have too much of a thin skin, or think too high of themselfs or simply take things wrong. That has refrained me from keeping on discussing things as well, it´s really annoying how ppl quickly jump on your neck at the slightlest statement, new idea or concept.

We had a chat in Discord and I think we worked out our issues. This is also the reason I hadn't responded to the post here.

The real smart guys will be able to get whatever info they can from zero's spreadsheet model and apply that info to improve their gameplay. How can you discuss something so obvious is hilarious; if you go oom you heal for nothing. If you are getting close to go oom you cut down on ur healing agressiveness, healing for less. That´s why zero's spreadhseet have included a modificable time to go oom "goal" which you derive from that fight lenght you want to sim. If you current talents and gear following the spreadsheet model's "rotation" states that you will go oom in 6min, then you will definately have to do something to prevent going oom in a 7 or 8 min fight.

So ye, the spreadsheet is a guideline that will give you more knowledge. Is up to you how to interpret and use it to your benefit. If anything you should thank him for keeping up the holy pala spreadsheet.

Doesnt matter if you are in a top guild or you are parsing high, there's always something to learn and being more humble will allow you to become a better player even if you are on the top.

This is accurate, but it doesn't excuse me having to improve the spreadsheet since it's too easy to use wrong. I'm working on it.

When Dreamguard fixed his spreadsheet which made Haste get very high values, we were getting a lot of questions in the Discord why Haste was suddenly the best secondary and people started stacking it regardless of its impact on mana consumption. This was why I wanted a solution in my spreadsheet that adjusted Haste for the increased Mana usage. After experimenting with several different solutions I came to the current one where Haste loses value drastically as you go OOM before the boss dies and the spreadsheet suggesting you fix this yourself by either changing your talents, casting less FoLs, dropping some haste or as a last resort get a mana trinket.
With that I also changed the way Mana is valued to be based on the same trigger (side note: with 4PT19 I still believe mana is often undervalued but I'll park that theory until the primary concern people have is resolved properly).
With my spreadsheet the questions turned from "I thought haste was shit?!" into "why are mana trinkets high?!". So yesterday I changed the main sheet to display when that started happening and make a suggestion;

I'm hopeful it will help but at the same time skeptical. I might just have to disable it entirely until I get time to write a comprehensive post explaining why it is how it is.

I've been saying for a long time that you can be gearing 90% right without the spreadsheet by just following a simple 10 item levels > crit > other secondaries stat prio. I think too many people are using the spreadsheet for their gearing questions because there's too much emphasis on stat weights depending on your "personal stats". Spreadsheeting is our form of min/maxing which not everyone has to be doing and if you're doing it wrong it's not more helpful than the more general suggestions like the above suggested stat prio or what is on Wowhead.
This isn't anything new, I've seen people misconfigure Dreamguard's spreadsheet since forever. It's just more controversial since Holy Paladins appear to have a deep hate for mana help other than talents and different cast behaviors.

I spoke to Pelinal and he removed the suggestion to use the spreadsheet from his Wowhead guide. I think this may be a step in the right direction. I'll have a chat with some other people about how we should help people that are looking for information that the spreadsheet could give, but other sources as well which are much easier to use. I'm not sure if telling everybody asking for basic help to use it is the approach we should continue to do.

Suggesting using the spreadsheet less is one approach to avoid educating people wrongly. Obviously it's a bit silly since the spreadsheet should work properly by default and be hard to misconfigure but this has been a goal all along and has been challenging to say the least. Improvements are planned on this area as well.

Can anyone post link to zero's spreadsheet?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...wWw/edit#gid=0

Where can I find a more-or-less detailed description of your model? I don't mean the spreadsheet itself, I mean things like essential assumptions, methodology etc.

I left a lot of "hints" in the spreadsheet to explain how things work and my reasoning. I have come to see that larger changes like the valuation of mana needs better explanations and I'm considering writing a comprehensive post about that. While I'm afraid I might not have the time for it, I think it's going to be hard to value mana the way I want to value it without getting many people angry without a post that makes sense where the reasoning becomes clear.

[Deleted]

FYI this legendary was stealth buffed and the heal can now crit. 30% max health heals are huge on many tanks. It's not as good as current BiS still, but it's much better now.

It still isn't affected by beacon/vers/mastery but is a really nice buff nonetheless.

yeah noticed that in Maw of Souls last night when i was crit healing the tank at 1.6mil with it.. loving it thank god they removed overhealing affix xD

[MCC]

I left a lot of "hints" in the spreadsheet to explain how things work and my reasoning. I have come to see that larger changes like the valuation of mana needs better explanations and I'm considering writing a comprehensive post about that. While I'm afraid I might not have the time for it, I think it's going to be hard to value mana the way I want to value it without getting many people angry without a post that makes sense where the reasoning becomes clear.

I want to see whether your model has any problems. This means I need a clear description of how it works without having to dig hints out of a spreadsheet.

[Taiina]

So far, I've been going off the "ilvl is king" on relics as well as the fact that Dreamguards spreadsheet says Shock Treatment is worth 4 ilvl. (My assumption being that a 905 ilvl relic will be better than a 900 ilvl relic regardless of the trait, because the best trait is only worth 4 ilvls)
However, on Zero's spreadsheet, he's put in brackets "weapon ilvl" by the Relic Value. Can Zero or anyone else just confirm what is the case here?

If it IS weapon ilvl, then how the heck is that calculated because I just go off Relic ilvl.

Thanks in advance.

[Kochanski]

On a relic it tells you how many +ilvl your wep gains if you place it. That's the figure you use

[Taiina]

On a relic it tells you how many +ilvl your wep gains if you place it. That's the figure you use

I have a feeling I've been derping since Legion dropped then as I don't think I've ever seen this lol. Will have a look later... Assuming it shows up on ElvUI without any fiddling or something silly like that.

[MCC]

Phew. Got my artifact challenge completed. Below are my impressions of this... ordeal. Yours might differ, but these ones are mine.

Scenario notes:

* Tuning is very tight for the current gear level. Uncomfortably tight.
* The scenario does not really test your skill as a healer. It tests your ability to complete the scenario, no more, no less.
* I've abandoned PUGs and put people on ignore for less stupid missteps than what these NPCs did (or didn't do) in this scenario. Seriously... it's a freaking PUG-from-hell simulator.
* Surprisingly, debuff/dispel management is not a requirement. You need to dispel exactly one time. I found that somewhat disappointing.
* Prolonged Power potions and drums are near-mandatory. It's very hard to pass the burst HPS check without them, at least with my gear.

Build notes:

* Crusader's Might is the only useful T15 talent for this.
* Unbreakable Spirit and Repentance are extremely useful.
* Devotion Aura is probably mandatory at this gear level, even if you don't use Aura Mastery (I forgot to use it on my successful attempt ).
* Holy Avenger and Sanctified Wrath because you need those cooldowns.
* Surprisingly, Beacon of Virtue.

Spell notes:

* BoV rocks this scenario so hard. For me it was the difference between a lot of miserable failures and a successful completion.
* LotM is useful, especially its synergy with BoV, but you don't have to use it if you are allergic to it.
* Tyr's Deliverance is much more useful than I thought at first. I mean, it's sort of obvious in hindsight, but... yeah.

Gear notes:

* My equipped item level was 903, with 43 traits and 7/7 Shock Treatment.
* The key legendary was... Tyr's Hand of Faith. No, really. Even 3/3 Focused Healing, LoH cooldown was around 1.5 minutes. This is absolutely amazing for getting out of all kinds of tight corners. It also helps during the HPS check near the end (LoH a ghost, one less thing to worry about).
* Velen's trinket was my other legendary. That one is much less useful. The cooldown helps, sure, but the overhealing part of its effect is all but useless. If you have it, use it; if you don't, use something else.
* 4pc T19 works really well here.

Encounter notes:

* First phase was probably the most difficult part.
* The HPS check is an exercise in cooldown management. Took me a few attempts to get it to a point where I had all 8 spirits healed without letting a single one reach the boss.
* Speaking of which: on my successful attempt, none of the spirits reached the boss. The scenario "rewarded" me by activating the boss immediately instead of letting me sit and drink. As a result, I entered the final phase with 200K mana remaining and everything on cooldown, including potions. I did not appreciate these shenanigans. Didn't stop me from completing it, though.

All in all, I am glad I got my achievement and artifact skin, but I can't truthfully say I've enjoyed the scenario. Oh well. My Legion to-do list is now one item shorter; been there, done that, didn't even get a t-shirt.

[Taeldorian]

Got my challenge completed as well. Everything I used I'll post below:

Talents:

1.Crusaders Might for the first 3 stages. Bestow faith for the last two as we aren't dpsing much at all.

2. Unbreakable spirit helped a ton. Lots of damage reduction. Could also use cavalier for the final stage as there's a lot of movement.

3. Repentance is mandatory.

4. Devo aura for all stages aside from the last 2. I used aura of sac for the final two stages, it was extremely beneficial for healing souls and group members at the same time.

5. Holy avenger. Good dps boost and healing boost on a short CD.

6. Sanctified Wrath. Improves our best CD, basically necessary for healing the souls. Other talents aren't good for this challenge anyway.

7. Beacon of Faith. You can heal 3 group members at the same time with this, which means everyone but yourself. This was extremely useful for healing the souls. Beacon your team and heal the souls.

Gear: My Ilvl is 901 equipped. Legendaries I used were Prydaz and Velens. I swapped out Prydaz for chain of thrayn right before the souls stage for extra burst healing.

TIPS:

You can change talents in the challenge with a tome.

Useful legendaries were: Velens, Prydaz and Chain of Thrayn. Prydaz was absolutely amazing throughout the entire challenge.

Getting through the souls stage (hardest part for me): Holy avenger, prolonged power and Velens on the first set to heal up all 3. Use LoH on this phase to instantly heal a soul. Avenging wrath on the second set to heal up all 3. You can use drums to heal up the next 2 souls if you want or you can heal 1, let the 2 go and then heal the last one on the next set. Getting 2 souls or none is fine, easily manageable.

I personally let the 2 souls go and healed the last one I needed on the next wave. Did it that way so I would have time to drink. You can do it either way though.

Dealing with the boss: Do not worry about dpsing him. I made this mistake twice and tried to get as much damage in as possible. Focus on movement and preserving as much space as possible. Also focus on keeping yourself low when you get the debuff. I kept myself around 35% whenever I got the debuff. To help dps a little bit you can throw a judgement out whenever you have time. Doing it this way allowed me to save just enough space at the end so when the last puddle landed I could bubble and kill him.

[Crysth]

Phew. Got my artifact challenge completed. Below are my impressions of this... ordeal. Yours might differ, but these ones are mine.

Scenario notes:

* Tuning is very tight for the current gear level. Uncomfortably tight.
* The scenario does not really test your skill as a healer. It tests your ability to complete the scenario, no more, no less.
* I've abandoned PUGs and put people on ignore for less stupid missteps than what these NPCs did (or didn't do) in this scenario. Seriously... it's a freaking PUG-from-hell simulator.
* Surprisingly, debuff/dispel management is not a requirement. You need to dispel exactly one time. I found that somewhat disappointing.
* Prolonged Power potions and drums are near-mandatory. It's very hard to pass the burst HPS check without them, at least with my gear.

Build notes:

* Crusader's Might is the only useful T15 talent for this.
* Unbreakable Spirit and Repentance are extremely useful.
* Devotion Aura is probably mandatory at this gear level, even if you don't use Aura Mastery (I forgot to use it on my successful attempt ).
* Holy Avenger and Sanctified Wrath because you need those cooldowns.
* Surprisingly, Beacon of Virtue.

Spell notes:

* BoV rocks this scenario so hard. For me it was the difference between a lot of miserable failures and a successful completion.
* LotM is useful, especially its synergy with BoV, but you don't have to use it if you are allergic to it.
* Tyr's Deliverance is much more useful than I thought at first. I mean, it's sort of obvious in hindsight, but... yeah.

Gear notes:

* My equipped item level was 903, with 43 traits and 7/7 Shock Treatment.
* The key legendary was... Tyr's Hand of Faith. No, really. Even 3/3 Focused Healing, LoH cooldown was around 1.5 minutes. This is absolutely amazing for getting out of all kinds of tight corners. It also helps during the HPS check near the end (LoH a ghost, one less thing to worry about).
* Velen's trinket was my other legendary. That one is much less useful. The cooldown helps, sure, but the overhealing part of its effect is all but useless. If you have it, use it; if you don't, use something else.
* 4pc T19 works really well here.

Encounter notes:

* First phase was probably the most difficult part.
* The HPS check is an exercise in cooldown management. Took me a few attempts to get it to a point where I had all 8 spirits healed without letting a single one reach the boss.
* Speaking of which: on my successful attempt, none of the spirits reached the boss. The scenario "rewarded" me by activating the boss immediately instead of letting me sit and drink. As a result, I entered the final phase with 200K mana remaining and everything on cooldown, including potions. I did not appreciate these shenanigans. Didn't stop me from completing it, though.

All in all, I am glad I got my achievement and artifact skin, but I can't truthfully say I've enjoyed the scenario. Oh well. My Legion to-do list is now one item shorter; been there, done that, didn't even get a t-shirt.

I would have enjoyed a dispel mechanic. Maybe use a mage npc instead of a hunter. The Viper Shot was dispellable and would always target the mage, but did initial mana drain on application too. So you had to choose between letting the Viper Shot hit the mage and draining him/her as you dispelled, or you soaking it and losing out on mana. If the shots came enough that if you let the mage get hit every time, she'd be OOM and useless. The same goes for you. So you would have to juggle both your mana and the mage's to ensure you get the the stage in decent time.

I used BoV a few times at the start, but ended up swapping to Faith just for ease. It would have been nicer to stick with BoV especially on the last 2 pulls of Stage 1. It'd have aided in keeping everyone level, and out of risk of a mage's arcane blast and archer arrow combo to death.

For the HPS check, I would have enjoyed something more intense and longer lasting. Stage 1 is longevity but isnt taxing (I generally didn't drop below 80% mana until the last 2 packs). Stage 5 is just pure blowing CDs. I would have liked a longer version of Stage 5 that required you to maintain high HPS for a couple minutes, instead of 3 or 4 waves of rotating burst CDs.

[snackbacon]

Is there a BIS trinket list for holy? I looked a little on google and couldn't find one.

[Timadin]

Is there a BIS trinket list for holy? I looked a little on google and couldn't find one.

Use zero's spreadsheet when comparing trinkets.

[snackbacon]

Use zero's spreadsheet when comparing trinkets.

You know, I've looked at that a couple times and didn't even see the tabs at the bottom. Thank you!

[clutchh]

The first 1-2 times I looked at it I didn't notice them either

[Kochanski]

What are people's opinions on the break point at which to swap from drape of shame (assume 900+ ilvl one) + 4 piece t19 to 2Pc + 4Pc t20? Have played around in spreadsheet but numbers aren't very convincing.. Or are people thinking of drape + 4Pc t20 and ditch the t19? I guess the HS crit % can be overcome with higher ilvl stats